Hudson River boaters plan protest, say marine units overdo safety checks

[LineCapt 134]

Hudson River boaters plan protest, say marine units overdo safety checks

11:45 PM, Jul. 15, 2011

Written by

Ken Valenti

Police marine units are a common sight on the Hudson River, but some boaters say their stops for safety checks have become excessive.

"Over the past five years, police activity has just gone crazy," said Lex Filipowski, a boater who is organizing a protest off Croton Point Park at 11 a.m. Sunday. The rally is called "Freedom to Go Boating."

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110716/NEWS01/107160332/Hudson-River-boaters-plan-protest-say-marine-units-overdo-safety-checks?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

[Remember585 815]

I think cops pull too many cars over. I'm staging a protest on I287.

Morons...

[f19 4]

I don't get it........... In my eyes, if your not doing anything wrong ,than why worry about being stopped!!!!!

It's for your safety and the safety of other boaters ..... Now ,,,,,,these are probably the same people who will stage a protest when someone godforbid is boating while intoxicated and kills,or injures someone they know and will state that there's not enough enforcement and it could have been prevented..............

***INSTEAD OF A PROTEST.......NEXT TIME YOUR "BOTHERED" AND YOUR BOATING TRIP IS "INTERUPTED".... WHY DON'T YOU THANK THESE MEN AND WOMEN FOR KEEPING YOU,YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS SAFE..........****

@remember585----- hahahahahahahahahahah

[FFEMT150 214]

I agree with both of you guys. If you arent doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worrie about. Also, something like a simple wave tells these guys that you see them and are a friendly, same as waving at a cop car on the road, usually I get a wave back and left alone.

[wraftery 1,275]

If you get a USCG Auxiliary inspection and display the sticker on your windshield, the local cops would probably leave you alone. That depends if the stop is a safety check or a sobriety checkpoint.

[wraftery 1,275]

If there are too many cops on the Hudson, We could send the "extras" to Washington DC to relieve the FF's who are watching the hi-crime areas.

Now we can put the DC FF's back in ambulances where some think they belong.

Now we can send those ambulances to the Hudson River to handle he rise in boating accidents caused by the diminished police presence.

(Ha! You thought Barak Obama was the only one who could come up with plans like this.)

[voltage1256 42]

sounds alot different then the Long Island Sound by Cos Cob lol. I think I have only seen a marine unit twice... ?

[16fire5 693]

sounds alot different then the Long Island Sound by Cos Cob lol. I think I have only seen a marine unit twice... ?

When the price of gas is very high the marine patrols on the Hudson outnumber the recreational boaters on weekdays.

[rayrider 94]

I remember back in the day, like 6 years ago, myself and friend would take our waverunners out of yonkers and loop around manhattan back to the YO. It got so bad we stopped doing that route and headed north to bear mountain instead. One day on our way down and back to NYC, we were pulled over by coast guard (boarded twice as they would say), NYPD, Jersey state, Yonkers, and lastly NYC corrections. Yes corrections! Harrasment you think? And no, we were not drinking, speeding or jumping wakes. Just cruising along. Had all the safety equipement, etc. and we were let go every time. It took all the fun out of it.

[Res1cueLT 20]

I remember back in the day, like 6 years ago, myself and friend would take our waverunners out of yonkers and loop around manhattan back to the YO. It got so bad we stopped doing that route and headed north to bear mountain instead. One day on our way down and back to NYC, we were pulled over by coast guard (boarded twice as they would say), NYPD, Jersey state, Yonkers, and lastly NYC corrections. Yes corrections! Harrasment you think? And no, we were not drinking, speeding or jumping wakes. Just cruising along. Had all the safety equipement, etc. and we were let go every time. It took all the fun out of it.

Maybe you just look like a trouble maker

[ny10570 745]

Rayrider is absolutely right. There is so much overlapping redundancy that it has become a nuisance. Imagine if every weekend every police agency along 9A was going to run a checkpoint. No one would tolerate it. Wave runners definitely draw more attention because of their peers however even a 32' Whaler with 4 adults earned 3 "safety checks" in 5 hours including 1 while anchored. They need to find a way to coordinate with each other.

[Remember585 815]

The Hudson River has been a jurisdictional pissing match for fire departments for years. Police patrols of the river were slim to none up until 2-3 years ago, for the most part.

For what it's worth, the river is a large body of water that is well traveled by all kinds of vessels. The rules/laws of the river are probably not fully understood / enforced by local police departments, and because of this, IMHO, it should be left to WCPD and/or NYSP to patrol (on our side). For each smaller municipality, such as my own, to pay officers OT to patrol the local water, which for us is mostly off of Croton Point, ergo technically WCPD's area if you think about it, is a waste. Let local PD handle their roadways and, like us, if they have smaller bodies of water requiring patrol, then do it. I'm all for diligent enforcement and prevention, but a line has to be drawn.

For the fire side of things on the Hudson... 9 out of 10 calls we all get dispatched to could be handled by a police agency. Stalled boats, sailboats with mechanical problems, etc. are nothing more than a disabled vehicle and unless it is in a precarious location, then let PD boats handle them. Save the local FD vessels for fires and rescue calls. Service calls are getting 3,4, 5 or more agencies now which is an enormous waste.

I don't understand why every call on the Hudson River requires the response of three fire department boats, WCPD, usually Rockland Sheriffs and/or FD boats from Rockland - we're sending more stuff then is needed the majority of the time. And in addition to all of the stuff on the river, you have to figure at least 3-4 emergency vehicles are driving to their local docks lights and sirens for non-emergencies.

It's a recipe for disaster that needs evaluating.

[engine51 10]

no such thing as "over doing" it when it comes to safety

[JJB531 652]

I'm merely playing Devils Advocate here, but...

1) The Hudson River is a large body of water, but how do you propose that WCPD cover the Hudson River from Yonkers to the Putnam County line? How many police officers from the WCPD do you propose the County dedicate to Hudson River patrol when the County is cutting police officers from details (i.e. disbanding the Mounted Unit)? How many boats would the County have to purchase to adequately cover the Hudson River waterway? Should the County have to pick up the tab to patrol the Hudson River?

2) Why would the County or State Police know more about maritime law enforcement then local law enforcement? Is it because of the stigma associated with a "County" or "State" law enforcement agency that makes them better educated and/or prepared to handle certain aspects of law enforcement? That's like saying that a city patrol officer is more knowledgeable then a Police Officer from a local agency. True that city officers might handle considerably more calls for service, and a city patrol officer may have more clinical street experience, but unlike city patrol officers, many local law enforcement patrol officers carry out their own follow-up investigations and build their own criminal cases without referring every case to a detective squad, giving some local police officers more investigative experience.

2) I don't understand why an Automatic Fire Alarm requires the response of 3 Engines, a Ladder, a Rescue, 3 Chiefs Cars, and 12 POV's? I would assume the same reason why an emergency call on the Hudson invokes a response from several agencies.

[Remember585 815]

1) The Hudson River is a large body of water, but how do you propose that WCPD cover the Hudson River from Yonkers to the Putnam County line? How many police officers from the WCPD do you propose the County dedicate to Hudson River patrol when the County is cutting police officers from details (i.e. disbanding the Mounted Unit)? How many boats would the County have to purchase to adequately cover the Hudson River waterway? Should the County have to pick up the tab to patrol the Hudson River?

WCPD has several vessels now, and I don't see why they couldn't post one to cover from the TZB to the BMB. If Rockland is also in the water they could theoretically split this coverage. Also, Yonkers PD could handle their region (if it still exists). Since WCPd is already out in the Hudson (and starting to make appearances in the LI Sound) I don't think picking up the tab is a problem. I also don't think the mounted unit would of worked out well in the river...

2) Why would the County or State Police know more about maritime law enforcement then local law enforcement? Is it because of the stigma associated with a "County" or "State" law enforcement agency that makes them better educated and/or prepared to handle certain aspects of law enforcement? That's like saying that a city patrol officer is more knowledgeable then a Police Officer from a local agency. True that city officers might handle considerably more calls for service, and a city patrol officer may have more clinical street experience, but unlike city patrol officers, many local law enforcement patrol officers carry out their own follow-up investigations and build their own criminal cases without referring every case to a detective squad, giving some local police officers more investigative experience.

Not saying they do or don't know more about maritime law now, but dedicating a specific unit vs. putting whatever cop picks up the OT on a local level would be more beneficial. Bottom line, specialized services shouldn't always be repeated, but perhaps left to one agency to take the lead or a combined effort of several agencies.

2) I don't understand why an Automatic Fire Alarm requires the response of 3 Engines, a Ladder, a Rescue, 3 Chiefs Cars, and 12 POV's? I would assume the same reason why an emergency call on the Hudson invokes a response from several agencies.

Well, that varies from department to department. A fire alarm may mean an actual fire which is a legit emergency. Other factors such as life hazards, occupancy size/type, water supply, etc. usually gauge apparatus assignments. A stalled out boat because some hammerhead didn't check the fuel before setting sail isn't an emergency, just like a car that's run out of gas isn't an emergency. Many of the calls the FD's respond to on the Hudson River could and probably should be handled by either a PD vessel and/or SeaTow.

[Pedro911 22]

Nice.....

I'm suprised that Astorino has not proposed consolidation of PD marine units and PD bike units. Can anyone say paddlebike pd?

[JJB531 652]

1) County PD does have several boats, how many are on the water at a given time? How many police officers would you have to transfer to the Marine Unit to staff 2 boats? What if a boat is down for service/repairs? Would this result in a lack of coverage? I didn't say there should be a Mounted Unit in the River (although it would be comical to see horses with floaties), I was questioning how is the County going to justify transferring more officers to a specialized detail when they are cutting police officers from other details? I don't know anything about boating, but how long would it take a marine boat to respond to let's say the Tappan Zee Bridge from the further ends of the Hudson (Yonkers or the Bear Mountain Bridge)?

2) Most maritime units in local jurisdictions require their police officers to undergo some form of training regarding maritime law enforcement. I can't speak for every agency that staffs a police boat, but the agencies that I am somewhat familiar with don't just throw any police officer on overtime out on the River for the day.

3) Correct, specialized services shouldn't always be repeated, so why do we have 3 Technical Rescue Teams (that I know of) in Westchester County? Why does one town need 3 or 4 Rescues instead of consolidating?

4) I fully understand a fire alarm may be a legit emergency. When a 3rd party call comes over for a boat in distress, it could be some moron who ran out of gas, or it could be a boat taking on water. Many times the dispatch information regarding maritime emergencies is extremely vague. Boat type/size, number of souls on board, location, water/weather conditions can influence a response from maritime units.

5) Minor motor vehicle accidents really aren't emergencies, but still illicit a full response of engines, ladders, rescues, chiefs cars, ambulances, and paramedic fly cars. It's okay on dry land but not appropriate for the water?

I do agree with a lot of your points, and would like to see specialized services merged, and I'm sure it is frustrating and annoying for recreational boaters who get stopped numerous times while trying to enjoy a nice day out on the Hudson, but the way Police agencies handle their patrols of the Hudson River in terms of redundancy and duplication of resources is just the norm for the area. Do I agree with it? No, I don't. Why is it that way? I'm going to assume because of the same reasons every FD in Westchester County has to have their own "toys" instead of combining and sharing resources.

Edited July 17, 2011 by JJB531

[ny10570 745]

We get it, there is a massive amount of redundancy in the fire service too. Start a thread about that. Instead of getting your feelings hurt over law enforcement being attacked why not offer an explanation as to why every PD needs to be out there doing these checks or even better throw in a suggestion as to how you would fix it.

We need the large law enforcement presence on the river. When something bad happens out there all of these resources will be needed. Rather than having 20 different agencies doing the same thing 20 times over, why not coordinate? Today depts A and B will be doing one thing. Depts C and D take on a different assignment. If that's too much sharing for all the little fiefdoms how about a central database of all the boats stopped. Before harassing someone you check in to see if they've been inspected today.

[JJB531 652]

We get it, there is a massive amount of redundancy in the fire service too. Start a thread about that. Instead of getting your feelings hurt over law enforcement being attacked why not offer an explanation as to why every PD needs to be out there doing these checks or even better throw in a suggestion as to how you would fix it.

We need the large law enforcement presence on the river. When something bad happens out there all of these resources will be needed. Rather than having 20 different agencies doing the same thing 20 times over, why not coordinate? Today depts A and B will be doing one thing. Depts C and D take on a different assignment. If that's too much sharing for all the little fiefdoms how about a central database of all the boats stopped. Before harassing someone you check in to see if they've been inspected today.

I don't need to start a thread about that, that thread has been visited on here a dozen times and is a pointless one to start because it will not go anywhere. Feelings hurt? Far from it my friend as it takes a lot more to hurt my feelings. I personally can care less whether or not Hudson River patrols go from 20 police boats to 1.

I'm merely playing devils advocate, and you were the one who got all up in arms because I compared the redundancy on the Hudson River to the redundancy in the Fire Service in Westchester County. The point I was making was that the redudancy on the River exists for some of the same reasons there is redundancy in the Fire Service.

Why does every PD need to be out there doing these checks? How about a link to the Poughkeepsie Journal article about the alcohol involved boat accident in Tivoli that killed 4 people? Putting 2 marine units in the water to cover an area of the Hudson River from the New York City line up to the Putnam County line, IMHO, is stretching the marine resources too thin. Why does every PD need to get involved? Perhaps because the County PD doesn't have the manpower and/or equipment to staff more then what they already have, I don't know as I do not work for them and am not intimately familiar with the money they have budgeted and allocated for their marine unit. Or maybe it's simply because every PD along the River wants "their piece of the pie". What I do know is that every summer we read about the various marine units, FD and PD alike, carrying out legitimate rescues on the Hudson, and that right there is what makes the strong presence on the River worth it to me. I know if I were bobbing in the middle of the River, I'd rather have 3 boats from neighboring jurisdictions coming to pluck me out rather then wait for 1 coming from miles away. How would I fix it? I don't know, I guess that depends if a problem truly exists?

Better coordination between all of the agencies that patrol the River is a great idea, and how much coordination there is now I truly don't know. A central database for all boats stopped? Eh, not quite sure how that would work or if it's feasible to do so. Just because a boat is stopped at 8am doesn't mean that the individual operating the boat is in the same "condition" (i.e. sober) at 2pm. Maybe the boat had enough life jackets for all the people on the boat at 8am, but now after picking up a few more passengers, now there isn't an appropriate amount of life jackets, which could be a problem if the boat starts taking on water? Is that line of thinking a little far-fetched? Yeah, I will agree that it is, but is it possible? Sure it is. But complacency can not just kill responders, it can kill the people we're supposed to protect as well. I honestly don't have the answers, I'm not a maritime expert, in fact I'm not even a maritime novice, so I'm not sure what is considered the appropriate amount of manpower to cover the Hudson River. All I do know is that the maritime environment is a different environment that has it's own challenges.

Lastly, give me a break with the "harassment" comment. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone cry "harassment" when a Police Officer is simply doing his/her job I'd be a millionaire. Better yet, how about Police Officers just sit back, drop their fishing lines in the water and maybe go for a little dip while they're out there so they're not "harassing" anyone? Maybe those damn Troopers should just park their car on the side of the parkways off in the bushes and take a nap so they're not "harassing" anyone? Maybe those plain-clothes anti-crime cops should just go to the movies or go out to dinner instead of aggressively trying to get guns off the streets so they're not "harassing" anyone?

Whether you like it or not, aggressive enforcement, or I'll just call it "harassment" so you understand, is what prevents incidents like the Tivoli boating accident from occurring more frequently through deterring people from doing stupid things and enforcing the law when they get caught. Like it or not, people do stupid things and Law Enforcement are the ones who hold the responsibility to prevent such incidents from occurring.

[huzzie59 75]

So...Would it be okay if as I'm driving my car from Yonkers to Peekskill on Route 9 to get pulled over by every police agency so they can perform a safety check?

Or let's make it my commercial 18 wheeler. Safety check in every jursidiction is okay?

[JohnnyOV 2]

For the fire side of things on the Hudson... 9 out of 10 calls we all get dispatched to could be handled by a police agency. Stalled boats, sailboats with mechanical problems, etc. are nothing more than a disabled vehicle and unless it is in a precarious location, then let PD boats handle them. Save the local FD vessels for fires and rescue calls. Service calls are getting 3,4, 5 or more agencies now which is an enormous waste.

SEATOW.... and just strictly as a informative question, why is the Hudson river, the only area in the country that is not covered by them, and the only area I know of that sends FD and PD units out for non-emergency type recoveries (stalled engines, mechanical problems etc)?

[JJB531 652]

SEATOW.... and just strictly as a informative question, why is the Hudson river, the only area in the country that is not covered by them, and the only area I know of that sends FD and PD units out for non-emergency type recoveries (stalled engines, mechanical problems etc)?

Actually in NYC disabled vessels will typically come over as Water Rescues, and usually initiates the response of FDNY, precinct personnel, ESU, Harbor, SCUBA, and Aviation. I guess once it is determined that the vessel is not in distress do the resources stand down and/or go back into service.

[JJB531 652]

So...Would it be okay if as I'm driving my car from Yonkers to Peekskill on Route 9 to get pulled over by every police agency so they can perform a safety check?

Or let's make it my commercial 18 wheeler. Safety check in every jursidiction is okay?

I'll bite....

You are trying to compare a dedicated safety checkpoint on Route 9, a 2 or 4 lane divided roadway (depending on which stretch of route 9 you are travelling), in multiple jurisdictions where you are guaranteed to hit each individual checkpoint along your travels to the type of safety enforcement conducted on the Hudson River? A waterway that is in 3 miles wide at certain parts being travelled by boating traffic in various directions across that 3 mile span where each jurisdiction has 1 vessel to cover their primary area of waterway response? Not to mention that these PD Marine Units are not only conducting safety boardings, but also Maritime Law Enforcement and handling calls for service (stalled boats, water rescues, etc.). If the PD Marine Units were forcing each boat to pass through a dedicated channel of the Hudson River Waterway to be boarded for safety checkpoint purpsoses as recreational vessels passed through each jurisdiction, of course that would be silly. If you read my previous posts, I concurred that it probably is extremely annoying for recreational boaters who are stopped and/or boarded multiple times in a single day. I question how frequently that actually does occur, but I'm not denying that it probably does happen on occasion.

As you drive your car from Yonkers to Peeskill, you are undergoing a safety check without being pulled over every time you pass a patrol car. That police officer is observing your car for speed, seatbelt use by the occupants, cell phone use by the driver, any mechanical deficiencies with your vehicle (working headlights, brake lights, etc.), along with a number of other things. Like I said, I am by no means knowledgeable in anyway on maritime law enforcement, so with the exception of ensuring the operator of a boat is not intoxicated and there are an adequate number of life vests on board for the number of persons on the vessel, I don't know what else PD Marine Units would be looking for during their safety checks. I don't know if there's any way for a PD Marine Unit to mimic the non-interactive safety checks they do on land to passing vehicles and apply that to maritime safety checks. I'm guessing the only way to do these safety checks is to interact with the people on board a vessel, but I could absolutely be wrong.

Considering the fact that waterborne rescues/operations are more dangerous for responders and can be more challenging in terms of scene access, I don't necessarily disagree with increased PD presence as a preventative measure. Preventing incidents from occurring through ensuring recreational boaters are abiding by appropriate safety measures, as well as enforcing maritime law not only keeps recreational boaters safe, but it increases responder safety as well by preventing responders from having to... well, respond. Also if you read my previous post, I concurred that there should be more coordination between the different agencies patrolling the river to prevent each agency from stopping the same boat multiple times in a short period of time, I merely questioned the logitistics of how one would be able to ensure that such a program would be efficient.

[huzzie59 75]

I don't question the need of law enforcement on the river.

I question whether law enforcement has a right or is allowed to to stop a vessel just for the sake of a safety inspection if no violations are observed. I'm no lawyer and have no knowledge of laws as they pertain to the river.

But, If I'm operateing my vessel in a safe and lawful manner and have whatever I'm supposed to have visable, then why get stopped?

Or, I get stopped once and then again and then again. All with no visable reason to get stopped?

That's my question.

[abaduck 123]

Disclaimer: I'm not a boater, never have been. But i'm reading this with interest, and will open my big mouth with some thoughts.

I can see both sides here.

People kill themselves and others doing dumb things and drunk things in cars. People kill themselves and others doing dumb things and drunk things in boats.

So we enforce certain laws to try to prevent that.

I drive every day in Westchester. Thousands and thousands of miles a year. In eight years I've been stopped for checks or inspections maybe three or four times - usually just a five second stop while a cop checks the registration and inspection stickers on the windscreen.

If law-abiding people on the river - people who aren't drunk or doing anything to suggest they're breaking any laws - are being stopped regularly, or even occasionally, three or four or five times a DAY, something is very wrong. No harm in aggressive enforcement and 'showing the flag' as LEOs - just like the deterrent effect of parking a cruiser somewhere visible. But if that extends to excessive actual stops - which it sounds like has been happening - then I'd have to wonder if the enforcement is being adequately targeted.

JJB531 is right, enforcement is clearly needed, otherwise the people who don't give a s*** will have a free-for-all. ny10570 is right too; it sounds as if the enforcement is sometimes happening in a way and at a level that would NEVER be tolerated on the roads - civil disobedience would be the result, people would simply stop consenting to be so policed, and start refusing to stop.

Maybe the answer IS legislation and consolidation; a single PD for a single river sounds very much like the natural way to go. Maybe until that happens the river users need to engage with all the LE agencies collectively, and come up together with some way to minimise the number of times law-abiding boaters are stopped - the USCG sticker, or some similar scheme, sounds like a good start, for example. That's good for the river users, who have less hassle, and good for the cops, who spend less of their time dealing with the law-abiding.

Mike

Mike

[OnTheWheel 43]

Sea Tow does cover the river, but as stated before they sometimes come in a "boat in distress" call and you dont know what you have. SeaTow comes from Haverstraw so a PD boat maybe a little closer and be able to keep a boat off the rocks until they get there. PD boats generally wont tow a boat unless its in the channel, then its towed to safety and they drop anchor until SeaTow arrives.

[The Axe 8]

Sea Tow does cover the river, but as stated before they sometimes come in a "boat in distress" call and you dont know what you have. SeaTow comes from Haverstraw so a PD boat maybe a little closer and be able to keep a boat off the rocks until they get there. PD boats generally wont tow a boat unless its in the channel, then its towed to safety and they drop anchor until SeaTow arrives.

FYI for all the Hudson river boaters. Tow boat U.S. (Yonkers Marine services inc.) Also operates in the Hudson River and responds to boating emergencies. Boat U.S. has really stepped up it's service on the Hudson river the last couple of years.

Edited July 18, 2011 by The Axe

[Remember585 815]

FYI for all the Hudson river boaters. Tow boat U.S. (Yonkers Marine services inc.) Also operates in the Hudson River and responds to boating emergencies. Boat U.S. has really stepped up it's service on the Hudson river the last couple of years.

Good to know - how does one contact them?

[MoFire390 118]

its been a few years since i've been on the river. i used to be on the river almost every day in the summer and had to deal with the rockland and westchester county pd stopping me for safety checks. its thier job get over it!!! they are trained by the coast guard and are acting as the coast guard on the river. as i do not see many coast guard units on the river atleast here in northern westchester. all they are doing is making sure everyone has the proper licsensing to operate a PWC. as well as safety equipment. the PWC i used always had more then what they where looking for and they were usually quiet happy about it. as for the boaters the officers are checking to make sure that the operator is not drinking as instructors state in the boaters safety course 1 drink on land is = to 2 on the water. when in doubt anchor in a cove and spend the night. better to be safe then sorry.

sorry just my oppion

[Just a guy 493]

I got the following statement from the NYS dept. of parks website -

"A strong law enforcement presence on our waters is also crucial to the safe boating effort. The marine patrol officer serves many functions. Through the enforcement of the Navigation Law, marine patrols can remove the dangerous boater from the water. They are also quite often the first respondents to a boater in trouble. Marine patrols serve as visual reminders to the boating public that they have a responsibility toward the safety of other boaters, as well as toward themselves. Many of these patrols consider educating boaters as much a part of the job as writing tickets; they often teach safety courses for youth, distribute safety information at boat shows and county fairs, and provide on-the-spot information to the waterborne boater who is unaware of proper safe boating practices."

Like it or not, these checks are essential and a protest is just a waste of time. If boaters on the Hudson don't like the safety checks then they should put their boats on some other body of water, it's as simple as that.

It does make me laugh to see how much the word "harassment" is thrown around on these threads when it comes to the action of Law Enforcement, it seems that I hear it as much here as I do at work......