Should Teens Be Able To Drive Firetrucks/Ambulances?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The way I type from a phone should not have anything to do with it no disrespect..... On the second note I agree with you 100 % but when it comes to picking on the "younger crowd" it starts to get frusturating because some guys I wont say names seem to think that young guys shouldnt drive because of experience but like I

said experience comes with doing it. And there is young guys all over the place that are driving emergency apparatus and doing excellent jobs. Not trying to piss anyone off just throwing my point out there thats all just because one young guy makes a mistake dosent mean all of the young drivers should be bashed on.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to act and write seriously. If you can not write out complete sentences without "text-speak" when address professionals, especially on a topic you feel so passionately about, then you will not be taken seriously or given the respect you desire. Effective communicating is just one part in the difference between adolescence and maturity. Another aspect is understanding your limits and the risk involved in your actions. At 19 and male, the insurance for your car is significantly higher than that of a 30 year old male, if you don't pay your actual bill, ask your parents, thats what I did. There is a reason for this difference, this reason is that people in OUR age and sex groups get into a significantly higher number of crashes causing serious property or bodily harm. These are the indisputable facts backed up by well documented and respected statistics. If you do not believe this also relates to driving fire apparatus, then I have no idea what facts will actually sell you on anything. One thing that needs to be understood is that no one here is saying you specifically are a bad driver, however the facts and statistics are stacked heavily against you. Additionally, no one is saying you will crash, however, odds are you will at some point before you turn 25. What people are saying here is that at 19 you have had a full drivers license for 3 years tops if your 20th birthday is tomorrow, if you have been a full member of your department since age 18 you have only been interior qualified for 2 years, if you have been driving, you may have been driving for a year, maybe a year and a half. If anything is even remotely true, how many times have you driven your ladder in the snow, the rain, the 40+ mph gusts of wind? How many times have you driven code 3 to a working fire with reports of people trapped? How many times in a year to a year and a half have you considered what crashed the $750,000 rig you are driving endangering the lives of yourself, your crew, the people on the road and the people who called for your assistance will do to you, your family, your department and the community?

My answer, as well as the answer of those opposing your opinion on this topic is not enough...I am sorry we disagree but its not about your feelings or opinion, its about public safety. Not public safety in terms of police/fire/ems, but public safety in the form you of driving a 20+ ton piece of high tech firefighting equipment 30+ miles an hour down a busy street while school is getting out. Sure outliers do exist, but statistics dont lie. You factually and statistically are not a safe driver nor experienced driver. You are right, you need experience to get skilled, just not at 19...

Edited July 12, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[MELILLO719 30]

Alright clearly there's no talking to you and I have driven in snow storms nd all your other factors and anyone can crash a rig dosent matter how old you are it can happen to anyone... Does it happen to younger kids more often sure lets go with the "logical statistics" and say it does that does not mean the kid is a bad driver it's calles an accident and unforunately they happen to everyone so before you start throwing have u driven to this and thought about that yes I have and im sure everyother young driver has to but like I said it can happen to anyone..

[voltage1256 42]

31-2!!!!

[latemedic39 4]

Well Im going to put my two cents in to the mix. I think the point trying to be made is that being a young apparatus operator yes, you may be responsible , and trustworthy and you can back up the truck in the cones well but what about you are going out for the possible fire are you really going to take your time and drive with due regard for public safety or is tunnel vision going to take over and you are going to drive like a nut ? Fire apparatus weighs from 40,000 lbs to up to 80,000lbs ! that is illegal for most roads in alot of towns with most road and bridge limits of 10 tons or 20,000 lbs . In evoc the tell you about stopping distances and weight shifting plus what scares me the most about driving , killing someone who wasnt paying attention to me and having to possibly live with that for the rest of my life not to mention possible jail time and injuring anybody in my crew . This is not to slam the 19 yo kids who operate but it applies to everyone who wants to get behind the wheel .I think the best post was from mbendel that when you join you should want to learn everything about firefighting that you can and learn to drive when you get older whats more fun playing with fire or driving i prefer fire !!! oh and ps im 38 started driving apparatus when i was 24

Edited July 12, 2011 by latemedic39

[AJU 39]

Driving is more about judgment and executive function than anything else. The simple fact is that the prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain responsible for executive function) is still developing up until hit our 30s, so there's the physiological backing to these age limits. Does it mean a "kid" can't do it? Anyone can be taught the basics as long as they are able to reach all of the controls. However, conceptually, a mature and safe driver is at odds with an 18-25 year old (especially male) as we are generally pushing limits and greatly overconfident at that age.

@melillo719: Just because you've done something without incident doesn't make it safe. Can you get lucky 5/6 times playing Russian Roulette? General rules and standards are in place for a reason. If you look to understand the rules and their reasons for existing, you will, when the time is right, be a great driver. This is because behind good judgment is a good understanding of consequences - basic cause and effect. Rules are generally put in place to mitigate situations that resulted in incidents with significant damage to people or property in the past. It's far better to learn from others' mistakes as you can't make them all yourself.

[abaduck 123]

Alright clearly there's no talking to you and I have driven in snow storms nd all your other factors and anyone can crash a rig dosent matter how old you are it can happen to anyone... Does it happen to younger kids more often sure lets go with the "logical statistics" and say it does that does not mean the kid is a bad driver it's calles an accident and unforunately they happen to everyone so before you start throwing have u driven to this and thought about that yes I have and im sure everyother young driver has to but like I said it can happen to anyone..

I said in my earlier post on this thread:

"You should assign drivers after looking at their record, their experience, their temperament, their personality, and their driving skills"

I'm a Scotsman. I call a spade a spade. I have to say, based just on what you're saying and how you're saying it, I personally wouldn't let you near the driving seat of any apparatus. You're talking too much and not listening enough.

Mike

[JohnnyOV 2]

it's calles an accident and unforunately they happen to everyone

All accidents are preventable. Although they are mostly not intentional, which is why it is called an accident, all incidents, near misses, accidents, injuries and fatalities are preventable. This is something I strongly believe. For an accident to occur, there must be a break down in a chain of events, through latent failures (organizational influences, unsafe supervision, preconditions for unsafe acts, ect ect.) leading up to the active failure which is the actual unsafe act. Remove any of these "failures" and the accident is entirely preventable. This is known as Reason's "Swiss Cheese" Model and it is something I studied extensively.

here is a quick overview of it - http://www.coloradof...ntroduction.htm

edit:

"....So what really constitutes that 70-80 % of human error repeatedly referred to in the literature? Some would have us believe that human error and “pilot” error are synonymous. Yet, simply writing off aviation accidents merely to pilot error is an overly simplistic, if not naive, approach to accident causation. After all, it is well established that accidents cannot be attributed to a single cause, or in most instances, even a single individual (Heinrich, Petersen, and Roos, 1980). In fact, even the identification of a “primary” cause is fraught with problems. Rather, aviation accidents are the end result of a number of causes, only the last of which are the unsafe acts of the aircrew (Reason, 1990; Shappell & Wiegmann, 1997a; Heinrich, Peterson, & Roos, 1980; Bird, 1974)....."

Edited July 12, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[M' Ave 1,466]

so before you start throwing have u driven to this and thought about that yes I have and im sure everyother young driver has to but like I said it can happen to anyone..

No, no you haven't. You simply haven't been around long enough to have "seen this and seen that". I gotta tell you, Ike (I Know Everything) your boldness doesn't instill confidence. Be very wary of the person who says they've seen it and done it all....'cause they're in for a wake up call one day. You need to get real. I promise that if you walk into a firehouse in New Rochelle, Yonkers, The Bronx, ect. ect. where each individual Company responds to more emergencies in a year than your department (more importantly, you yourself) you'll have a difficult time finding anyone, regardless of time as a fireman, who will tell you they've seen it and done it all. Better yet, keep it close to home. Go to the senior guy in Harry Howard or Rescue 40 and tell them that, even though you've been around long enough for a cup of coffee, you've seen it, thought of it and done it already. That's surely not going to go over well.

Humility and common sense will keep you alive and learning in our profession. We have a great thing going. Who's better than us? We get to fight fire, help people on a daily basis and it's exciting. You never know what's going to be the end result of that run that just came in. You will never achieve a "know everything" status. That's just not attainable in our field and the smartest person out there learns something everyday in every situation and they also know when they're qualified to perform certain tastk.

[mstrang1 213]

Melillo- Have you been on I95 or 287 doing 70mph in the tower ladder and have to swerve or slam on the brakes? Do you know how far you will go before you stop? Have you been driving up King street at 50mph and have a deer jump in front of you? Have you had to do either of these things in a car?

[MELILLO719 30]

No and why would I be going that fast anyway nd those things can happen to anyone mstrang1

[mstrang1 213]

They can happen to anyone, but shouldn't. I threw those speeds in there to try and sneak one by you. You seem to be very reactionary in this post. Just wanted to see if you were reading or just being defensive. Nobody should be driving that fast, especially in a tower ladder. Take it from me, getting in an accident in an engine sucks. I know this personally. Although there were thankfully no injuries, the woman who stopped short in front of me was pregnant and transported to the hospital for observation. Luckily, no one was in the crosswalk where the pathfinder she was driving ended up. Luckily my officer and crew had seat belts on and did not land on the pathfinder. Someone older and wiser told me afterwards, there are two kinds of drivers, ones that have had an accident, and ones that haven't had one YET. I just got mine out of the way early in my career. I drive carefully all the time, stop at all negative intersections no matter time of day, etc. I have actually had officers tell me to speed up. I refuse every time. If you have not done this yet, and I suggest this to every emergency vehicle operator, read every fatal fire apparatus (or ambulance/police cruiser) report you can find. Learn from other peoples death. Speed, inexperience, and bad weather are the three most common causes of fatal accidents. Take your time learning the job of the back step properly before getting in the front. Just because you drive more at 3am than a more experienced driver, only means you don't have to take a leak before you go on that call, or you live closer, or don't have to crack your back three times before taking a few steps toward the door. If you take the time to put on your turnout gear, another (more experienced) driver should arrive. If they don't, there are bigger problems ahead...

[firedude 985]

All accidents are preventable.

IMO, this is false. Only some accidents are preventable. S*** happens! But like you said, that's why its and accident.

Edited July 12, 2011 by firedude