Should Teens Be Able To Drive Firetrucks/Ambulances?

[x635 4,066]

I think you should have to be 21+, with a relevant clean drivers license, and 5 years driving experience. 18 is WAY too young. I know this is a rural area, and it is a tanker which are prone to rollovers, especially poorly engineered ones, but still.....

Teen driver in Tenn. fire truck crash prompts age scrutiny

By Nate Morabito

WJHL

UNICOI COUNTY, Tenn. — A fire tanker truck crash in Unicoi County raises questions about who is and who is not allowed to drive an emergency vehicle

On her way back from a call, an 18-year-old firefighter lost control, overcorrected and crashed a 28,000 pound tanker

FULL ARTICLE: http://www2.tricities.com/news/2011/jul/05/18-year-old-firefighter-crashes-tanker-truck-ar-1153675/

[texastom791 31]

I have to respectfully disagree. I drive an ambulance 4 days a week 10 hours a day at my job in New York City and am 19. Prior to driving ambulances I drove pick up trucks/dump trucks with landscaping trailers attatched.I've been driving since I was 16 when I got my permit. I feel that if you can handle the vehicle properly and respect what you're driving than you'll be fine. You have to exercise care when operating bigger vehicles.

[firedude 985]

This questin sure comes up a lot! I know I am young and to some of the older generation this may seem preposterous. But, there are very responsible teens out there are some that are not reasonable. Please don't stereotype all teens as bad drivers! What happed with this tanker rollover could have happened to anyone. There are fire departments and EMS agencies that are run with 100% with teens (except the chief of course). With the unfortunate downfall in volunteerism and budgets in this country, departments have to deal with less. If they are responsible and are given the right training, let them drive!

Darien EMS: Run entirely on teens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UPDNEMT5Do

Saint Michael's College Fire & Rescue: run mostly with teens and some alumni

Seth, does this website allow you to post polls? I'm sure there will be interesting results.

Edited July 9, 2011 by firedude

[M' Ave 1,466]

I'm going to disagree with Texastom791 above. While there are exceptions to every rule....you can't write laws and regulations for exceptions. You have to blanket everyone. Now, I'm not claiming to be old and wise, but I'm old enough to realize how little you know and how shallow your depth of experience is when you're....say under 25 (give or take, of course). Operating an emergency vehicle is a tremendous responsibility and it's one that, i feel, is beyond the scope of the average teenager. It's no coincidence that your auto insurance rates drop dramatically when you turn 25, or that a rental car company won't let you one of their cars until you've cleared that age. People in under that age have a dramatically higher accident rate. This rate is even more pronounced for the ages 16-19. If you fall into that catagory, you shouldn't be operating an emergency vehicle.

I'm sure that some enterprising and ambitious teens will not like this post, relax, it's not a dig. And while you might feel yourself capable today, you have to leave that in the hands of someone with greater knowledge and foresight. That person is not me, by the way . Relax, there's no rush. You've got plenty of time to drive.

What do ya wanna drive for anyway? Hook up and look up? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the nozzle!

Edited July 9, 2011 by M' Ave

[voltage1256 42]

I must disagree as well. Im 18 and got my permit at 16 on the dot. I've been driving pick up trucks, plowing, and using the same mirrors fire apparatus are configured with for 2 years (obviously thats not alot compared to alot of other members on this site).However, I think it all depends on the person behind the wheel. In my department you are required to take EVOC before you can become a driver, and that is something I agree with. As they state in that class on the first day, some people are meant to drive and others aren't. I don't think age has anything to do with it. But maturity, patience, professionalism, and skill does.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

21+ no question, then you can take EVOC or CEVO and pump ops, ladder ops etc. then get checked off by your department chief training officer.

SMC in Colchester (The town next to Burlington where I go to school) has had numerous difficulties with their drivers to the point where they usually have an alumni member drive the pumpers, the ambulances are driven by upperclassmen drivers in their 20s. No offense to the posters under 21 who think they are qualified to drive a pumper or ambulance, but I don't trust your abilities. Regardless of what your department says, you have not had enough experience behind the wheel driving code 3 or using the pump or flying the aerial. I commend your desire to drive, but your skills are of better use inside tending to the patient or manning the hose line. This has been a point of contention in several departments I know of but it takes that one avoidable accident by a member under 21 to change the policy. Additionally, it is significantly less expensive to insure a 21 year old driver than a 18 year old. However, that point is secondary to the point where I don't feel safe with a driver younger than I am, for a time I would have disagreed with me, but I have learned that age actually does mean experience over the years.

Don't drink the kool-aid, you are not a better driver, there is a reason why males under the age of 25 are the most expensive group of people to insure...we get into more accidents, plain and simple...if you need an 18 year old to drive your piece of apparatus, look into getting paid drivers.

Edited July 9, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[eagle5473 7]

Its called experiance and you dont have enough under 21 to be responsable for an emergency vehicle. Should a 18 year old with 1 or 2 winters driving experiance be driving in the snow? the answer is no, if you dont have 24/7 365 ability then you need more experiance its got nothing to do with how responsable you are or if you are "a good kid"

aaron

[Bnechis 3,961]

This has come up before and the under 21-25 year olds always argue that they have enough experiance and those older (who at 18 said the same) always say they dont have enough.

The insurance industry says you do not have the experience. They claim that under 25 has more accidents and in many cases they will not insure emergecny vehicle drivers under 21. If they will allow younger drivers they charge a very large additional fee for the privalage.

[Dinosaur 844]

In a word, NO.

If you can't rent a Toyota Corolla until you're 25 you shouldn't be driving emergency vehicles when you're less than 21.

Judgement, experience, knowledge simply aren't there.

[texastom791 31]

Okay so if under 21 is too young to drive than what's too old ? You're gonna tell me that the guy who's 75 and been driving for 40 years is still fit to drive your first due piece of apparatus to a working fire. And don't tell me it doesn't happen because I know of a few departments where it does.

Edited July 9, 2011 by texastom791

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Nope no way. I know the problems all too well. I had the rule changed to 21 when I was chief. Had our Dodge Powerwagon destroyed 'cause the 18 y/o had to go to the high school with it and show off to the kiddies. On the way back he hit a cement block delivery truck . Luckily no one was hurt. It's not just going to calls, but all joy rides as well. I tried to make it so they had 5 yrs of service as well, that didn't fly.

[Dinosaur 844]

Okay so if under 21 is too young to drive than what's too old ? You're gonna tell me that the guy who's 75 and been driving for 40 years is still fit to drive your first due piece of apparatus to a working fire. And don't tell me it doesn't happen because I know of a few departments where it does.

You're absolutely right. There is too old too. Not just for driving but for firefighting in general but that's for another thread. Of course if the politicians have their way all cops and firemen will work until their 75 so it may become more of an issue.

[abaduck 123]

I'll contribute this. My dad never had an accident in his life. He never had a driving lesson and never passed a test. He started driving heavy vehicles (dump trucks etc.) near the end of WW2 when he was 14; he was just told to get in and drive it.

There are idiots and bad drivers and people who shouldn't be trusted with a lawn mower of every age. IMHO older people, some of them anyway, just tend to be better at hiding this.

You should assign drivers after looking at their record, their experience, their temperament, their personality, and their driving skills - all over a good length of time - and you should be assigning them prudently and erring on the side of caution. You shouldn't be looking at the calendar.

If there's a problem, or perceived problem, with younger drivers, the problem is in their selection, training, and supervision, not in the drivers themselves; the military manage to teach younger drivers to drive all kinds of vehicles in combat.

Mike

[pfdfirefighter01 1]

I feel that under 21 is to young to be driving a engine or any piece of apperatus. . A ambulance is different and you should be required to be atleast 18. I feel that there needs to be more training besides a evoc class. I believe you should have a cdl license or some type of training more indepth to the training cdl drivers recieve to get thier license.

[FireMedic049 597]

Okay so if under 21 is too young to drive than what's too old ? You're gonna tell me that the guy who's 75 and been driving for 40 years is still fit to drive your first due piece of apparatus to a working fire. And don't tell me it doesn't happen because I know of a few departments where it does.

I won't tell you that a 75 year old is still fit to drive and the fact that it does happen doesn't make it a good idea and certainly has very little relevancy to whether or not someone under 21 is fit to drive.

[Danger 160]

Every 18 year old says they can handle it. As a former 18 year old, I fully support a 21+ age limit.

[v85 212]

My department(s) have the same requirements

21+

Driver's License for at least X(forget the actual number of years)

Clean Driver's License

Completion of EVOC or CEVO class

Those are also the minimum requirements. You also need to be signed off on by the command staff, and if they have any doubts they will not sign off. They do seem to work pretty well for us.

Danger:

I totally agree with you. I remember thinking I was going to become a police officer at 18 in a state where you could. Now, at almost 21, I don't think I am ready for another couple of years.

[SECTMB 612]

Some departments, particularly rural areas, don't have the luxury of waiting until their members reach 21 or 25 or whatever. We all know 18 year olds with more maturity than some 40 year olds. I think you have to deal with it

on a department by department, individual by individual basis depending on its specific needs.

Regardless of the age, training is crucial, especially with tankers as they offer their own particular operating difficulties.

One of our local departments rolled their tanker a few years back and it was being driven by one of their most mature and experienced members. It happens.

[rutola413 5]

21+ no question, then you can take EVOC or CEVO and pump ops, ladder ops etc. then get checked off by your department chief training officer.

SMC in Colchester (The town next to Burlington where I go to school) has had numerous difficulties with their drivers to the point where they usually have an alumni member drive the pumpers, the ambulances are driven by upperclassmen drivers in their 20s. No offense to the posters under 21 who think they are qualified to drive a pumper or ambulance, but I don't trust your abilities. Regardless of what your department says, you have not had enough experience behind the wheel driving code 3 or using the pump or flying the aerial. I commend your desire to drive, but your skills are of better use inside tending to the patient or manning the hose line. This has been a point of contention in several departments I know of but it takes that one avoidable accident by a member under 21 to change the policy. Additionally, it is significantly less expensive to insure a 21 year old driver than a 18 year old. However, that point is secondary to the point where I don't feel safe with a driver younger than I am, for a time I would have disagreed with me, but I have learned that age actually does mean experience over the years.

Don't drink the kool-aid, you are not a better driver, there is a reason why males under the age of 25 are the most expensive group of people to insure...we get into more accidents, plain and simple...if you need an 18 year old to drive your piece of apparatus, look into getting paid drivers.

I disagree with what you are saying.

I can see where the problems with a teen driving a rig, However lets say I am 18 and just joined.

You are saying because I do not have enough experience driving, I should not operate the rig, instead I should man a hoseline?

What if I am just fresh out of my probie period, and not seen too many real fires? What if I have not taken Fire School?

I believe every member should be able to drive, operate hoses, other equipment with the proper training.

[voltage1256 42]

SECTMB gets the point across perfectly. Its about the individual, the department's choice, and the department's needs.

[Remember585 815]

It's the education and training the individual receives that makes a difference. Maturity, not age, is the key. With that maturity comes an attitude of responsibility, something I didn't fully understand until I found myself mentoring others.

You can take EVOC and have an instructor that reads the powerpoint to you, throws numbers at you and then has you drive for maybe 20-30 minutes weaving around some cones. The general attitude of everyone in this environment: Is it over yet?

BUT - if you start the presentation with case studies that include photos of the accidents, the victims, the loved ones left behind - you'll increase the chances of grabbing your audiences' attention. Tell them how FF Smith crashed the Engine into a minivan and killed a woman driving her two kids and their two friends to soccer. Tell them how FF Smith was arrested and sent to jail, how he tried killing himself after being sued and losing everything, how his depression led him to lose his wife who took their son and moved away. MAKE IT HIT HOME FOR EVERYONE IN THE CLASS / DRILL.

When I was younger, a lot of the training given to me was a far, FAR cry from the guidance provided today. Thinking back to my Essentials class, I think I (and many others) showed up late, got out early, napped and basically didn't pay attention. When I took EVOC, I was a little older and just started to drive our apparatus. I only knew two things: I had to get to the firehouse first to drive and everyone moves for a fire engine going lights & siren. Man was I wrong! I was lucky to have Mike Wilbur as my initial EVOC instructor, who truly knows what he is talking about and isn't just reading me an Instructor's Manual. While I took some of what he said as "yeah, that can't happen here or happen to me" - I've learned over time that he was 100% right.

In the 14+ years I've been a driver, I have made mistakes driving our rigs and am thankful that none of those mistakes led to any accidents or injuries. I remember (and I know some of my other members know what I am talking about) driving our Engine to a Mutual Aid call once, with the pedal to the floor going over 70 MPH down a steep and pitched hill. I was convinced I was rolling the rig and killing everyone - luckily that didn't happen. When we arrived on scene, I was so upset with my driving that I was of no use to anyone. What if I did crash? What if I actually survived and had to live with hurting or killing all of my friends - and in a few of these cases - family members?!

Whether it's driving, pumping, doing traffic, or putting water on fires - we have to take it seriously and get the best teachers we can. We owe it to ourselves to be educated and ready for the worst days we'll have.

Sometimes, too, we have to play the role of the "bad guy" and tell someone they can't do something. Since I am not one of those people that looks forward to ever being told I can't do something, I dread when the time comes I have to tell someone that something they've been doing for a long time - or something their heart is set on - that they can't do it. But part of the job I was elected to do is to be that bad guy once in a while. I find myself sometimes thinking that it's amazing I have made it this long, and I can only hope others can learn from the mistakes I have made.

I ain't perfect - none of us are - but the bad decisions and the memories of "what the "f" was I thinking should help all of us to prevent others from making those same follies - and hopefully keep them alive another day.

If your drivers are fully aware of the ramifications that can and do happen if they have an accident, AND those sitting in the Officer's Seat are aware that they too could be held liable for the driver's actions - then by all means, let them drive.

I really hate to put it this way - but scaring the s*** out of your drivers is the best way to make them realize how huge of a responsibility it is to drive.

[texastom791 31]

I won't tell you that a 75 year old is still fit to drive and the fact that it does happen doesn't make it a good idea and certainly has very little relevancy to whether or not someone under 21 is fit to drive.

I think my question was relevant if we're going to talk about driving age why not talk about how old is too old as well. Obviously in a department with the ideal driver training program you're going to have to be re certified on every vehicle you're qualified on at least once a year and if you can't pump it or drive it properly than you're unqualified. But for departments that don't have elaborate driver training programs how would you determine the cut off age if any?

Edited July 10, 2011 by texastom791

[gamewell45 258]

I've often wondered what the litmus test is that suddenly makes one who turns 21 suddenly qualitied to drive fire apparatus. One day your 20 years old and unqualified to drive, then suddenly with the wave of a magic wand, the next day you turn 21 and your blessed to drive (after proper training on the apparatus).

I know of people who are in their forties, fifties and even older who shouldn't even be allowed behind the wheel of a POV, much less fire apparatus and yet I know 18 and 19 year olds who are extremely responsible good drivers. I think it comes down to deciding on an individual basis by the chief or chief driver as to who should be driving.

Is simply the act of turning 21 make one qualified or is it based on a number of factors including but not limited to character, proven responsiblity and/or driving experience?

[engine51 10]

im 16 and dont think teens should be driving firetrucks or ambulances, maybe a department car such as a chiefs car if needed or a ems fly car at the age of 18

[antiquefirelt 994]

While I completely understand the issue, I have a hard time sending 18 year olds off to war but withholding any other right for a more mature age. You can be trusted with all sorts of weaponry, but cannot be trusted to drink alcohol or drive big trucks? Now, should all FD"s be required to have a comprehensive driving program that ensures drivers of any age are mature enough and possess the proper attitude? Of course.

It's just a basic fundamental flaw in the US's attitude toward men and women of military service age, that I see.

[firefighter36 52]

I started driving an ambulance at 19, while working for a commercial service. I became a fire apparatus operator when I got hired at my job at the age of 21.

That being said, in my volunteer fire days, I did not drive or pump, and it was great, because I was too busy learning the inside of every building, every hydrant I would have to dress, and every task that would be expected of me. I was too busy to want to drive because I wanted to learn how to be a firefighter first. Not an engineer, not a captain or a chief, a firefighter. I think alot of people get into this business and want to jump right up the chain of command, get on he driver list, and the like.

There is a great deal to be said about being a smart firefighter. Its not about who has the biggest collection of certificates or the most badges, its about who can be a part of the team and contribute to the cause. Its also about having the maturity and gumption (some get it sooner than others) to deal with the dicey situations we find ourselves in.

There is an entire lifetime to drive an emergency vehicle. But without properly trained workers to handle the emergencies, those vehicles are worthless. They are also worthless if they don't get to a scene. Perhaps paramount, the operator should also be keenly aware of every task his crew is expected to perform, and that comes with experience and training.

That is the end of my diatribe.

[FireMedic049 597]

I won't tell you that a 75 year old is still fit to drive and the fact that it does happen doesn't make it a good idea and certainly has very little relevancy to whether or not someone under 21 is fit to drive.

I think my question was relevant if we're going to talk about driving age why not talk about how old is too old as well. Obviously in a department with the ideal driver training program you're going to have to be re certified on every vehicle you're qualified on at least once a year and if you can't pump it or drive it properly than you're unqualified. But for departments that don't have elaborate driver training programs how would you determine the cut off age if any?

I'm sure you do think it's relevant. It's definitely a legitimate question and I don't have a one size fits all answer for it, however it's a separate issue. On one hand we're talking about people that for the most part have very little driving experience overall and limited experience in the fire service vs people that in all likelihood have numerous years of experience in driving fire apparatus and fire service experience. There's a similarity in that the ability to competently drive the apparatus is paramount, but the fact that an old person is or isn't fit to drive, doesn't have any relevance to whether or not a young person is or isn't fit to drive.

[FireMedic049 597]

I've often wondered what the litmus test is that suddenly makes one who turns 21 suddenly qualitied to drive fire apparatus. One day your 20 years old and unqualified to drive, then suddenly with the wave of a magic wand, the next day you turn 21 and your blessed to drive (after proper training on the apparatus).

I know of people who are in their forties, fifties and even older who shouldn't even be allowed behind the wheel of a POV, much less fire apparatus and yet I know 18 and 19 year olds who are extremely responsible good drivers. I think it comes down to deciding on an individual basis by the chief or chief driver as to who should be driving.

Is simply the act of turning 21 make one qualified or is it based on a number of factors including but not limited to character, proven responsiblity and/or driving experience?

I think you may be using the wrong term. The act of turning 21 doesn't suddenly make one "qualified" to drive fire apparatus, it merely makes one "eligible" to drive fire apparatus (after proper training of course).

[helicopper 1,050]

While I completely understand the issue, I have a hard time sending 18 year olds off to war but withholding any other right for a more mature age. You can be trusted with all sorts of weaponry, but cannot be trusted to drink alcohol or drive big trucks? Now, should all FD"s be required to have a comprehensive driving program that ensures drivers of any age are mature enough and possess the proper attitude? Of course.

It's just a basic fundamental flaw in the US's attitude toward men and women of military service age, that I see.

Comparing the fire service to the military is a bad example. The military is far more structured, disciplined, and supervised. No 18 year old is operating a tank by himself without supervision and repetitive training.

At issue is also your assertion that any of this is a "right". Emergency service organizations can absolutely pick and choose their drivers and there is no right being infringed.

Others have said it well. It depends on the individual and their department.

[The Axe 8]

NO!!!!