FDNY new engines pump capacity

[vegasbuff 1]

Curious, after many years staying with 1000 GPM engines for most new pumpers, FDNY now is purchasing 2000 GPM pumpers across the board Most U.S. departments have moved to 1500 GPM as the standard, with a few exceptions

Why the change at FDNY? and what is the cost difference between the different capacities, i.e. 1000, 1500, 1750 and now 2000 GPM?

Does anyone have any idea how much FDNY is paying for the each engine under their contract?

[Remember585 815]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the cost is that big of a factor. We discussed it when spec'ing our new Tanker and it wasn't a true issue.

I may also be wrong, but I recall reading somewhere that after 9/11, the FDNY realized a need to be better equipped to get water from sources other than hydrants, such as the Hudson and East Rivers. (Was it Fire Appartus Journal where I read this?)

Again, I'm not FDNY so someone "in the know" would be best to answer that.

[ny10570 745]

The increased pump capacity goes along with the added hard suction. As John pointed out, it was one of the many lessons learned on 9/11.

[38ff 250]

Remember that with a pump of 1750 GPM or more, it can only generate that with DUAL 6 inch suctions while drafting. A 1500 GPM pump can be fed by a single 6 inch suction and generate the 1500 GPM at draft. Put a 1750 pump at draft with only 1 6 inch suction, and it wont generate the 1750 GPM it's rated for as it's being choked off for water.

I was told by a pump manufacturer that most pumps that pump 1000-1500 GPM are the same pump, but with some discharge(s) not used. Meaning that a 1000 GPM pump COULD produce 1500 if the 2 extra 2.5 inch discharges arent blocked off at the pump. An extra 2.5 inch discharge creates another 250 GPM of rated output. Basically, if you pay for the extra plumbing for the 2.5 inch discharges, you can go from 1000 GPM to 1500 GPM for a few hundred dollars more as long as the pump is rated for it. Same thing for 1750 to 2000 GPM pump, but the pump itself is bigger than the 1000-1500 GPM model.

This is why there is a big price jump for the cost of the pump when going from 1500 GPM to 1750.. Your buying the next size bigger pump.

Kudos to FDNY for spending the few extra bucks on the bigger pump, extra discharges and the suction hose to generate the large GPMs.

[16fire5 693]

Prior to the newest apparatus order all FDNY engines with the exception of the Hi-pressure pumpers and thoes with sattelites had 1000gpm 2 stage pumps. 1000gpm 2 stage pumps had been the standard spec. for 50 years. There will probably be some members that are either ECCs that went to new training over the last few years or are assigned to an engine who recieved a new pumper over the last few years that can shed more light. I know that prior to the order there was discussion of how the spec from the 1000gpm to the 2000gpm pumpers would be very little in cost difference. While the new rigs have increased capacity we still attempt to limit the number of linse stretched off one apparatus. This is probably a good practice regardless of what the capacity. Both running away from the supply or any time of pump failure would effect multiple lines. One real benifit is that 2000gpm pumpers are nice to have when supplying tower ladders since they TLs have the capacity to flow over the 1000 gpm rating of the old pumpers. Once again I don't have a lot of intimate knowledge of the new pumpers but there are sure to be more members on this board who do.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just to re-iterate the other posts by 38ff and 16fire5 respectively, a 2000 gallons per minute pump (yes I said gallons) is a nice feature to have especially with the consideration of water supply. The big difference in the pumps is impeller size. Also like both gentlemen said, to produce 2000 gpm or more out of that size rated pump, you need to have both side main intakes (no front suction or rear suction due to friction loss when talking about rating) of the pump connected and also you should also have the pump as a two stage and in volume to accurately produce the max flow. Yes they do make single stage pumps (single impeller) rated at 2000 gpm but usually you engine is screaming to make it up.

I have a 2000 gpm two stage pump at work and a 1500 gpm two stage pump at my old department. Both rigs when tested have exceeded the max rating.

[SteveOFD 176]

I was told by a pump manufacturer that most pumps that pump 1000-1500 GPM are the same pump, but with some discharge(s) not used. Meaning that a 1000 GPM pump COULD produce 1500 if the 2 extra 2.5 inch discharges arent blocked off at the pump. An extra 2.5 inch discharge creates another 250 GPM of rated output. Basically, if you pay for the extra plumbing for the 2.5 inch discharges, you can go from 1000 GPM to 1500 GPM for a few hundred dollars more as long as the pump is rated for it. Same thing for 1750 to 2000 GPM pump, but the pump itself is bigger than the 1000-1500 GPM model.

This is why there is a big price jump for the cost of the pump when going from 1500 GPM to 1750.. Your buying the next size bigger pump.

According to the Seagrave website the new FDNY Pumpers have a Waterous 2000GPM Pump. The Waterous website shows two models of midship pumps. The CM model will provide 500 to 1250GPM, and the CMU model will provide 1500 to 2250GPM depending on the number (and size) of discharges connected to the pump. Also note that only discharges 2.5" and larger are rated for the pump capacity.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I also forgot to add besides what I said as well as SteveOFD, 16fire5 and 38ff, engine size (horsepower) and also your transmission are a factor. If the right engine is not speced out to power the pump transmission, then you will not get the max pump rating. We all have heard of the nightmares of certain apparatus being underpowered thus affecting the pump's top capacity.

[dwcfireman 656]

A few people in this post brought up drafting....I don't know what the FDNY SOP is for drafting, nor do I really understand why FDNY would draft with an engine. I was always under the belief that the marine untis drafted and supplied water to shore units (and relay to the scene if necessary). Could anyone shed some light on this for me?

[IzzyEng4 427]

A few people in this post brought up drafting....I don't know what the FDNY SOP is for drafting, nor do I really understand why FDNY would draft with an engine. I was always under the belief that the marine units drafted and supplied water to shore units (and relay to the scene if necessary). Could anyone shed some light on this for me?

A person needs to have the mind set of is that (and I'll emphasis it in caps) EVERY PUMP OPERATOR SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DRAFT OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOT A PUMP OPERATOR! Sometimes "It's John Wayne Time" (20 points for where the quote came from).

The first thing you really should be asking is why should any pump operator draft from a water source? Its a pretty self explanatory answer when you think of it and also has bunch of different variables. You have to take the blinders off here to look for the answer. We are too often blinded by the function of a pump by hooking up to a hydrant. For FDNY and pretty much any fire department along a body of water, you have to have the versatility to be able to function and supply water to a scene especially if a specialty piece is not in service or available. Say you got a good fire going and a marine unit is not there yet (or has not been dispatched depending on where the fire is located), your pumpers can get in close to the water sources and start pumping back to the fire scene.

Obviously when you think of a rural town, you think of porta-ponds, water holes, rivers and cisterns. No supplied water source there (aka hydrants every 500 to 1000 feet). Well what happens if that a hydrant-ed water supply is suddenly damage or their is a great loss a pressure? Well drafting is the way to go to get the water flowing if you have a source to draft and pump from. What is Manhattan surrounded by? Two rivers on either side that meet at the foot of the island, you have water everywhere. It a quick set up if you practice a lot, and takes about the same amount of time as hooking up a five inch and two gates to a hydrant.

Another item you find in cities and especially old mill towns around factories are under ground canals. For the you're guys that do not understand what I'm talking about, many of the early grist mills and early 1800 era factories were powered by water. Canals and "race tails" that were tapped off from a river and a "mill pond" brought water to the powerhouse of a factory then in return the water either was dumped back into a river or other waterway. (No electricity back then fellas when the men where men and..... well we'll leave it as that). Many of the canals especially factories along the rivers still have active canals thus if there is no hydrants (or yard hydrants) that can be used, a MPO can drop a length of suction (or two) down the manhole cover conveniently marked "CANAL" (or if a real old-timer is around can show you which one it is) and now you have an endless supply of water. A few fires up my way the departments have done this numerous times so we have an adequate supply with out taxing the main water system connected to the hydrants.

Hydrants are also governed by the pressure supplied to them. The water company's supply pumps, the way the water grid is set up, size of the feed and branch pipes and valves opened or closed to direct the flow and pressure are all factors we have to live with when we hook up to a hydrant. If we over tax a hydrant's output of water (pressure and volume) well you can cause some serious damage (seeing a hydrant come ripping out of the ground along with the water main it is connected to is an eye opening experience. Seen it twice in my career, never had it happen to me.) When you draft, you are now the "hydrant" per-say controlling the water flow back to the scene and your pump on the engine (depending on its capacity and set up) can control the flow without taxing the hydrant system. Another advantage is if there are already multiple engines on hydrants, having a draft setup brings in more water to a scene without disrupting the hydranted water supply.

That is just a few of the view points of why city departments draft. Have to be ready for everything.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A person needs to have the mind set of is that (and I'll emphasis it in caps) EVERY PUMP OPERATOR SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DRAFT OTHERWISE YOU ARE NOT A PUMP OPERATOR! Sometimes "It's John Wayne Time" (20 points for where the quote came from).

The first thing you really should be asking is why should any pump operator draft from a water source? Its a pretty self explanatory answer when you think of it and also has bunch of different variables. You have to take the blinders off here to look for the answer. We are too often blinded by the function of a pump by hooking up to a hydrant. For FDNY and pretty much any fire department along a body of water, you have to have the versatility to be able to function and supply water to a scene especially if a specialty piece is not in service or available. Say you got a good fire going and a marine unit is not there yet (or has not been dispatched depending on where the fire is located), your pumpers can get in close to the water sources and start pumping back to the fire scene.

Obviously when you think of a rural town, you think of porta-ponds, water holes, rivers and cisterns. No supplied water source there (aka hydrants every 500 to 1000 feet). Well what happens if that a hydrant-ed water supply is suddenly damage or their is a great loss a pressure? Well drafting is the way to go to get the water flowing if you have a source to draft and pump from. What is Manhattan surrounded by? Two rivers on either side that meet at the foot of the island, you have water everywhere. It a quick set up if you practice a lot, and takes about the same amount of time as hooking up a five inch and two gates to a hydrant.

Another item you find in cities and especially old mill towns around factories are under ground canals. For the you're guys that do not understand what I'm talking about, many of the early grist mills and early 1800 era factories were powered by water. Canals and "race tails" that were tapped off from a river and a "mill pond" brought water to the powerhouse of a factory then in return the water either was dumped back into a river or other waterway. (No electricity back then fellas when the men where men and..... well we'll leave it as that). Many of the canals especially factories along the rivers still have active canals thus if there is no hydrants (or yard hydrants) that can be used, a MPO can drop a length of suction (or two) down the manhole cover conveniently marked "CANAL" (or if a real old-timer is around can show you which one it is) and now you have an endless supply of water. A few fires up my way the departments have done this numerous times so we have an adequate supply with out taxing the main water system connected to the hydrants.

Hydrants are also governed by the pressure supplied to them. The water company's supply pumps, the way the water grid is set up, size of the feed and branch pipes and valves opened or closed to direct the flow and pressure are all factors we have to live with when we hook up to a hydrant. If we over tax a hydrant's output of water (pressure and volume) well you can cause some serious damage (seeing a hydrant come ripping out of the ground along with the water main it is connected to is an eye opening experience. Seen it twice in my career, never had it happen to me.) When you draft, you are now the "hydrant" per-say controlling the water flow back to the scene and your pump on the engine (depending on its capacity and set up) can control the flow without taxing the hydrant system. Another advantage is if there are already multiple engines on hydrants, having a draft setup brings in more water to a scene without disrupting the hydranted water supply.

That is just a few of the view points of why city departments draft. Have to be ready for everything.

Didn't FDNY get a real eye-opener on their need for drafting capabilities on 9/11 when many of the hydrants around ground zero were not functional and Fireboats were required to get water on the pile?

[mstrang1 213]

Izzy- Manhattan obviously is an island, but the problem is access to that water. The entire east side has the FDR and, for a large portion, a bike/running path with no vehicular access. The West side above 57th street is no better, except maybe the boat basin. Below 57th street, there are some areas where you can get close enough to get a draft, but good luck stretching across 6 lanes of the west side. The outer boroughs probably have better access, plus a few canals (ie. the Gowanus, if you're brave enough...). NYC is a very diverse area, ask a guy from midtown about handling brushfires in SI, or the guy from SI about high-rise tactics, and they would have no idea. I'm sure these guys learned years ago how to draft, but when do you think was the last time they had the need?

[IzzyEng4 427]

I was making more of a generalization towards drafting, not trying to answer why a department like FDNY does what it does for operations and using Manhattan as an example. I know NYC in general is not all the same and is very diverse between the specific areas of each borough, as similar diversity like say in Westchester or my home county of New Haven every areas is much different than the next. I don't work there so I can't answer for anyone working in the City or their ops.

As for differences between a Mid-town guys vs. a SI guy, well that is another argument. But though each firefighter may not work at similar style fires, don't all recruits and guys on the line receive the same training and operate under the same SOG book so they can go and operate in another section of the city from their current assignment? It's the same with operating and specking an apparatus, you should know how to do it and make it the same ans the next one. As well as standardization (OMG is said the "S" word!), each engine obviously is set up in the City so that one from Freshkills can go over to Far Rockaway or Co-Op City and the personnel can operate it there, having the same basic equipment a fire engine should have (minus any specialized equipment a specific unit may have). I wish that was the case for all departments!

You also asked when was the last time they had the need. Remember we as firefighters are not in the business of what is happening right now or what our current need is. We are in the business of what is going to happen and to be prepared to facilitate a need when it arises. Also how many times as a department (any) shut down roads so that hose lines can be crossed over them?? So way if its six lanes of road, you shut it down. Hey so we inconvenience Mr. Suit for a few hours in traffic to battle a three / four alarmer. You can't put out a fire without water and a pump op should have the knowledge how to get it and where to get it.

[mstrang1 213]

While I agree a pump operator should have the knowledge to draft and do all of the other pump operations, it is a matter of facilities. Just arbitrarily looking at a map of Queens, Engine 286 (a random mainly landlocked engine co) does not look like it has a drafting source anywhere close to its first due area. I do not really know about the training and ability to go to the rock, but it seems like that a trip there would have to be made to practice drafting.

I was not calling into question the training or ability of any FDNY guys, I'm just saying that different people work in different environments, and have different priorities of training. I also understand that you have to train for what can happen, not what HAS happened. Since getting assigned to the sticks, I try to draft every few months, and I still am not streamlined in the process. Drafting is something that has to be done often to be proficient in, and not everyone has the resources to do this.

[x129K 1,393]

"John Wayne Time"

Circa 1991

"It's jumping floors on ya Lieutenant!"

"Yeah...howsabout them second in companies?"

"Ha! Mayor shut them down, John Wayne time, you're on your own!"

[ny10570 745]

Maybe one of the FDNY guys can correct me, but the added hard section was in direct response to the sudden shortage of water on 9/11. They had to wait for the fire boats to finish ferrying people to NJ before they could begin supplying water. I believe it was the firefighter that was committed to pumping for several days.

I've witnessed a quick thinking Company attempting to get a draft running and it didn't go well. Manhattan has much better access to water than you realize. You've got just over 20' to the pump of vertical height to play with and a lot more horizontal. All of the parks dept piers and parks are capable of handling heavy equipment at reduced speeds and all of the piers around the bridges are currently or have recently been used as staging areas for the heavy machinery and supplies used in the recent replacement and rehab of the east river bridges. The East side has vehicular access from the mid 30's all the way around the island to the West Side, minus a few blocks around the old Marine 6(At least I think that's where Marine 6 was). The west side has Many sections with vehicle access scattered all the way up to Dyckman St. All of these piers were initially used for an industrial waterfront and have just been re-purposed as parks, roads, and bicycle paths. They are extremely well engineered.

Of course only a couple of these areas are any good for a primary water supply as access is limited and in some cases weather dependent. However these are all options for that next "Oh Fudge" event. We all have those probably never going to use, but good skill to have things we train for and drafting should absolutely be included for firefighters.