A plane can fall out of the sky anywhere at anytime, Is your department prepared?

[Guest FF01]

Recently, (if you haven't heard) there was a fatal plane crash not to far away from Westchester County Airport, the plane was taking off from Westchester County Airport, when suddenly the pilot, an art gallery owner, carrying his family and his daughter's friend, declared an emergency return back to WC. He was all set to make the loop, so he did, but as he was making it, the plane lost all power and went straight down into the woods about 1000 feet away from an office building in Armonk. Armonk FD and EMS & others were already responding, but to no exact location, because the plane went off the radar. That didn't last long when a security guard from the office building called in saying the plane had crashed in the woods behind this office building, so all units went to that location and put out the fire and unfortunately realized there were no survivors. The cause of the plane crash is still under investigation.

When this happens, that does not mean that it can't happen again. Did you ever think about how a plane can fall out of the sky and crash right in your town/city? If you did, is your department prepared?

This writing means all sizes of planes, such as a 747-8 or a cessna 210, there is a big difference, yes, a Cessna can probably be treated as a MVA, but that is saying no buildings around, no houses for people to breathe in the smoke and chemicals, and no jet fuel burning what is around.

Edited June 23, 2011 by FF01

[Alpinerunner 61]

What do you think it means to be prepared? I mean, for a small plane crash, it can be treated as an MVA. The hydraulic tools will work the same (probably better due to lightweight aluminum body), you contain and manage fuel and fires the same way. An air chisel is a good tool and will work well. Maybe I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but I think you should keep it simple and remember the basics.

A large airliner crash is a different story and for any town, the only answer is a lot of M/A.

[x635 4,066]

It doesn't have to be a small plane, either. It could be a large frame aircraft, especially now with Southwest and jetBlue flying A320's and Boeing 737's into Westchester's approach and departure airspace. I pray it never happens, but anything could.

Look at what happened in Far Rockaway in 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_587

[smwells 7]

I used to work for the County Airport 20+ years ago. Any agency that is the the flight path for the airport would benefit from addtional training. This includes a sizable area. The loop for planes circling the airport used to go up as far north as carmel, and out over a good portion of westchester county.

This incident happened right after take off, but inbound flights can have just as many issues. The approach for the main runway comes over SUNY Purchase, Ryebrook Lake and I684, potential for large ground injuries as well.

[TL2L31 8]

At the time of the call I was at my sons little league game at Lyon park. It is located at the corner of King and Putnam in PC. I immediately started looking at the sky since I was directly under the flight path of inbound aircraft. Not hearing the actual call (received via text msg) I had no info of the plane type or direction. The first plane that came over my head was a large Jet Blue and started thinking that I hope this beast doesn't nose dive into this residential area or this park full of innocent people. In this senario no department could handle a potential disaster of this type alone.

[NJMedic 96]

But remember in the end of that the Rockway crash had was no survivors and several buildings on fire. Really no special aircraft training required. A better example would be the Avianca #52 crash out in Nassau County back in 1990.

From Wikipedia a short nartaive on problems encountered during the response.

The recovery efforts for Flight 52 proved to be difficult since the aircraft had crashed into the hilly, sparsely populated North Shore, making it difficult for emergency crews to reach. This was compounded by the narrow, winding roads that lead into the hamlet. Rescue squads from all over Long Island responded to the crash. The weather conditions and the darkness of night made the search crews' task even more challenging. The first ambulances to arrive performed triage, selecting the most critically injured passengers for transport to area hospitals. But so many other ambulances had arrived that a traffic jam developed, and some rigs were unable to leave the site immediately. Ambulatory passengers walked to other ambulances and arrived at hospitals sooner than critically injured ones.

Its one thing for agencies to have extra training if they are located near an airport and another thing for the random area where a plane might make an unexpected descent into terrain. I've read alot on the board questioning how WC agencies could be better prepared for a large scale incident. I think the discussion in this board have to move from the internet to the round tables in firehouses and EMS stations around the County. A common operating picture has to be established and everyone should know their role and what is not their role. Exercises, not just full scale but tabletops and functions should be used so everyone gets to know the players in the area. It can be done. its not easy and it is sometimes a full time job getting everyone on the same sheet of music.

[x129K 1,393]

Prepared? Maybe..as mentioned, a small aircraft so typical of those pleasure flyers here in Dutchess would most likely recieve the same response as an MVA, or even a structural fire (remember, alot of small department whose first alarms for fires in all they have, typically 2 engines, a tanker, a recue, maybe a utility...).

In recent times we have had several small crafts go down, resulting in fire and death, specifically in Union Vale/LaGrange and New Hackensack...both crashed into wooded areas, remote enough to neccesitate the use of ATV's, 4 X 4 utlities, and good old shoe leather express...

The Harlem valley North Clove Training Association, made up of Dover, Union Vale, Millbrook, Pawling, and Beekman FD's held a joint company drill last month for just this situation.

Having Sky Acres Airport in the general area, as well as bing in the flight path of the C5a's from Stewart, it is just a metter of time. Like anything else.

[firedude 985]

So you didn't see the plane go over you?

he would not have seen the plane. The flight path over lyons park is the approach to runway 34. The plane that crashed departed 34.

Edited June 20, 2011 by firedude

[helicopper 1,050]

So you didn't see the plane go over you?

He didn't because it didn't.

Anyway, alot of large aircraft going into LGA fly over the southern part of the county depending on the wind. Aircraft going in and out of other regional airports may also be flying over the county so everyone needs to be prepared.

We've had this discussion before but since we're not really well prepared for any MCI, focusing on aircraft incidents specifically may not be prudent. What about buses, trains, boats, etc.?

Considering that most agencies have some degree of staffing problem that affects their ability to cover routine calls, we're going to have big problems at an MCI.

[x635 4,066]

I'm lucky to have been in the Probie class I was in and the staff who led it....they prepared us for everything. We learned, and had expert speakers and hands on training, with Aircraft, Trains (Frieght and Commuter), boats, Bee Line Bus, etc etc. We had many "field trips" to Metro North Croton Harmon yard to practice with actual trains, to Westchester County Airport to train and familiarize with operations, etc.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

December 4, 1965, a Boeing 707 from San Fransisco to JFK and a Lockheed Constillation from Boston to Newark collided over Carmel. The "connie" crash-landed on Hunt Mountain a short distance from Danbury Airport. The craft broke into 3 pieces and came to rest on the Ridgefield/.Danbury / North Salem line. The pilot tried to make it to Danbury. 4 people where killed from the fire, including the pilot who got everyone out, then went back in to make sure all were out.

The 707 managed to make it to JFK and landed without further damage or injury.

The 707 left wingtook off the tail section of the connie.

55 souls on the connie and 58 on the 707

Edited June 21, 2011 by CHIEFPHIL

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Our dept is the crossroads for Danbury and Oxford airports and a test area for Sikorsky.

We received training from the Sikorsky FD in the event one of the new choppers falls out of the sky over bethel. It was basicially going over the three types of crashes and what to do to secure the craft . The best places for using the jaws and saws. We also went down to the plant and did some hands one with the choppers [look and touch] no actual extrication. One of the biggest things was our safety.

We actually had an aircraft donated and cut it up at a safety event, the jaws tore it up rear quick and the sawsall did an even better job.

As for a responce, we carry large foam tanks on all the engines. We look at it as a mva with a potential for a lot of fire. If one went down in our town, the response would be 3 engines, 2 rescues, 3 ambulances and medic fly car. If involving structures or downtown, the tower ladder. Additional special units would be special called [brush truck, EUV, Tanker, additional medic unit from Danbury]

[aviator70 16]

A plane can crash anywhere, anytime, even if a plane never goes over your jurisdiction. I am not sure anybody can ever be fully prepared, buy any and all preparation can help. I work in Emergency Services and Aviation. One important thing that all departments should be familiar with is the requirements set forth by the FAA ans NTSB in regards to handling accident scenes. NTSB 830 is a good place to start. There are laws and rules, especially that the wreckage can not be disturbed anymore then needed to save life and property. Years ago I saw Emergency Services workers rummaging through wreckage and moving wreckage to get a better "view"

[firedude 985]

A plane can crash anywhere, anytime, even if a plane never goes over your jurisdiction. I am not sure anybody can ever be fully prepared, buy any and all preparation can help. I work in Emergency Services and Aviation. One important thing that all departments should be familiar with is the requirements set forth by the FAA ans NTSB in regards to handling accident scenes. NTSB 830 is a good place to start. There are laws and rules, especially that the wreckage can not be disturbed anymore then needed to save life and property. Years ago I saw Emergency Services workers rummaging through wreckage and moving wreckage to get a better "view"

Yup! I think everyone who responds to the airport should read NTSB 830. Here is part of the law.

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 49, Volume 7]

[Revised as of October 1, 2010]

From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access

[CITE: 49CFR830.10]

[Page 601]

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER VIII--NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD

PART 830_NOTIFICATION AND REPORTING OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENTS OR INCIDENTS

AND OVERDUE AIRCRAFT, AND PRESERVATION OF AIRCRAFT WRECKAGE, MAIL,

Subpart C_Preservation of Aircraft Wreckage, Mail, Cargo, and Records

Sec. 830.10 Preservation of aircraft wreckage, mail, cargo, and records.

(a) The operator of an aircraft involved in an accident or incident

for which notification must be given is responsible for preserving to

the extent possible any aircraft wreckage, cargo, and mail aboard the

aircraft, and all records, including all recording mediums of flight,

maintenance, and voice recorders, pertaining to the operation and

maintenance of the aircraft and to the airmen until the Board takes

custody thereof or a release is granted pursuant to Sec. 831.12( of

this chapter.

( Prior to the time the Board or its authorized representative

takes custody of aircraft wreckage, mail, or cargo, such wreckage, mail,

or cargo may not be disturbed or moved except to the extent necessary:

(1) To remove persons injured or trapped;

(2) To protect the wreckage from further damage; or

(3) To protect the public from injury.

© Where it is necessary to move aircraft wreckage, mail or cargo,

sketches, descriptive notes, and photographs shall be made, if possible,

of the original positions and condition of the wreckage and any

significant impact marks.

(d) The operator of an aircraft involved in an accident or incident

shall retain all records, reports, internal documents, and memoranda

dealing with the accident or incident, until authorized by the Board to

the contrary.

Edited June 21, 2011 by firedude

[mstrang1 213]

What is the fuel load of the average Cessna type/size craft? If there is a leak, I assume it would warrant a hazmat response, just because of volume?

[firedude 985]

What is the fuel load of the average Cessna type/size craft? If there is a leak, I assume it would warrant a hazmat response, just because of volume?

What type of cessna? Cessna Aircraft

[mstrang1 213]

What is the most common coming out of HPN?

[firedude 985]

What is the most common coming out of HPN?

It would be the cessna 172. It is the most popular cessna. It holds 56 Gallons of Fuel.

[Task Force 7 65]

When I volunteered for Westworth Village here on the Westside of Fort Worth, if we ever had a plane go down in the Village our FD may not of had the equipment to handle it ourselves. However we would have automatic aid from the Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth Fire Dept. which has 3 ARFF units, a Engine, and a Quint. The main gate onto the base is in Westworth Village. We could also have Lockheed Martin Fire Dept. respond mutual aid if needed.

[dwcfireman 656]

It would be the cessna 172. It is the most popular cessna. It holds 56 Gallons of Fuel.

The C172 still may be a popular aircraft, however the Cirrus SR22 is making a bigger appearance these days. This is an aircraft with a few special items in it, too, and if firefighters don't know about them they could be in for a big surprise. The aircraft is made out of composite materials that splinter and shatter when cut with a saw, has airbags in the seat harnesses, and has a ballistic parachute system that can be utilized for severe inflight emergencies.

Edited June 21, 2011 by dwcfireman

[firedude 985]

The C172 still may be a popular aircraft, however the Cirrus SR22 is making a bigger appearance these days. This is an aircraft with a few special items in it, too, and if firefighters don't know about them they could be in for a big surprise. The aircraft is made out of composite materials that splinter and shatter when cut with a saw, has airbags in the seat harnesses, and has a ballistic parachute system that can be utilized for severe inflight emergencies.

Iteresting that you mention the SR22. I am cirrus pilot and am very familiar with the SR20 and SR22. They are certainly becoming a lot more popular. I think there are about 30 cirrus aircraft kept on thre field, most are kept at the Million Air FBO. They do offer a challenge to firefighters because of the composite fuselage and the explosives. Yes, explosives! The way the parachute deploys in a cirrus is with explosives.

If you are intersted in how it all works, The discovery Channel filmed a "How do they do it?" episode at the Cirrus Plant in Duluth, MN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_B--xSUxBA&feature=channel_video_title

Edited June 21, 2011 by firedude

[firemoose827 324]

What do you think it means to be prepared? I mean, for a small plane crash, it can be treated as an MVA. The hydraulic tools will work the same (probably better due to lightweight aluminum body), you contain and manage fuel and fires the same way. An air chisel is a good tool and will work well. Maybe I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but I think you should keep it simple and remember the basics.

A large airliner crash is a different story and for any town, the only answer is a lot of M/A.

Planes are totaly different than cars and buses, just look at below posts. Jet fuel burns better, and its stored in the fuselage and wings, you cant just grab the tools and go to work, things need to be planned and skilled references need to be used at scene like pilots and mechanics.

A plane can crash anywhere, anytime, even if a plane never goes over your jurisdiction. I am not sure anybody can ever be fully prepared, buy any and all preparation can help. I work in Emergency Services and Aviation. One important thing that all departments should be familiar with is the requirements set forth by the FAA ans NTSB in regards to handling accident scenes. NTSB 830 is a good place to start. There are laws and rules, especially that the wreckage can not be disturbed anymore then needed to save life and property. Years ago I saw Emergency Services workers rummaging through wreckage and moving wreckage to get a better "view"

This is a good point. These crash scenes need to be treated like crime scenes for the sake of the investigation by NTSB. Any part of the plane that is moved by well-intentioned yet poorly trained first responders could throw off the investigation. Maybe NTSB needs to have a training seminar on the crash scene response.

The C172 still may be a popular aircraft, however the Cirrus SR22 is making a bigger appearance these days. This is an aircraft with a few special items in it, too, and if firefighters don't know about them they could be in for a big surprise. The aircraft is made out of composite materials that splinter and shatter when cut with a saw, has airbags in the seat harnesses, and has a ballistic parachute system that can be utilized for severe inflight emergencies.

All very good reasons to approach the crash MUCH more different than a car or bus. These ballistic parachute systems, what force do they eject from the plane with and can they kill us? I never knew about these and Im glad you brought them up.

We may be located in a small community in the mountains, but the Albany International Airport is 35 minutes to the east of us and their patterns fly over our county, and there are two smaller airports in the two neighboring towns to our east and west, mostly small personal aircraft like cessna's but its still a threat, it could very well happen to us some day and yet when I bring it up about taking the Airplane Crash fire and Rescue class they all snicker at me. Its scary, but if it happens our county will not be ready...

Edited June 21, 2011 by firemoose827

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

You said it !!

[helicopper 1,050]

What is the most common coming out of HPN?

Cessna 172, 182, 206, 210 all operate out of Westchester - single engine piston aircraft. There's probably a 150 or 152 around as well.

A bigger issue would be the Cessna Citation line of jet aircraft. Just because you hear "Cessna" don't assume 2-4 seater.

[voltage1256 42]

Helicopper makes a very good point. While Cessna is popular for its single prop aircraft. There is also its Citation, and Soverign (spelling?) series. Which are turbine corporate aircraft with a much higher load capacity... and as seen in 2009, there's no Hudson river up here godforbid there's a bird strike of that caliber as seen on U.S. Airways 1549.

[calhobs 110]

It doesn't have to be a small plane, either. It could be a large frame aircraft, especially now with Southwest and jetBlue flying A320's and Boeing 737's into Westchester's approach and departure airspace. I pray it never happens, but anything could.

Look at what happened in Far Rockaway in 2001:

http://en.wikipedia....ines_Flight_587

Video of plane crash in Brooklyn, NY 1960

[ny10570 745]

On my birthday way back in 1987 (or 88) a plane crashed into a house in Pleasantville. Poor homeowner was in the shower when the plane landed in the next room. They still managed it and without bunker gear or an electronic foam portioner. Planes have been "landing" in unexpected places since they started taking off. There is no way to train and practice on every single type of emergency. Start with the basics. You have a composite construction vehicle with flammable fuel. There's not a dept out there that shouldn't be able to handle that. Airbags in seat belts, we should all be prepared for. Explosive deployed parachute, we have experience with airbags; similar concept different scale. At some point, no matter how big your agency there is a number where your resources are overwhelmed by patients. Maybe its 2 or its 40, either way triage and transport as available.

Ignore that fact that its a plane crash and focus on the elements and its nothing that any agency shouldn't be able to handle. who knows, maybe net week it'll be a Carrera GT into a fuel tanker into a church van just as easily as it could be an A320 onto 684.

Edited June 21, 2011 by ny10570

[x152 179]

Kinda surprised at some of the discussion here. Should anyone in Westchester or lower Fairfield County be surprised or not aware of the potential for an aircraft incident?

I did not need to sit through a class, get a pamphlet, or read a buff site, to realize that there is potential for an incident in this area. I guess one could just look up and listen at any given time and see a host of aircraft on the approach, in transit, or taking off.

I also would like to applaud AlpineRunner for mentioning that the smaller type of aircraft need to be handled for what they are...small vehicles, that happen to be in the air, rather than on the pavement.

Their size and fuel capacity is not that far from a large SUV or super-duty truck (or less). Why it is necessary to roll a surge of apparatus to an incident involving a small aircraft is disproportional to an understanding of the multitude of types of "aircraft" that may be found.

By some of the rationale that I have read here and other forums, would we dispatch the same response automatically to a report of a school bus rollover on a local road? or a report of a commercial bus collision on 287?

I recently was on scene at a Cessna crash in the central Connecticut that was handled with one Engine and one Rescue from the local FD. Interesting to note the differences in the response protocol between the two incidents. Just some food for thought?

[grumpyff 1,159]

On my birthday way back in 1987 (or 88) a plane crashed into a house in Pleasantville. Poor homeowner was in the shower when the plane landed in the next room. They still managed it and without bunker gear or an electronic foam portioner. Planes have been "landing" in unexpected places since they started taking off. There is no way to train and practice on every single type of emergency. Start with the basics. You have a composite construction vehicle with flammable fuel. There's not a dept out there that shouldn't be able to handle that. Airbags in seat belts, we should all be prepared for. Explosive deployed parachute, we have experience with airbags; similar concept different scale. At some point, no matter how big your agency there is a number where your resources are overwhelmed by patients. Maybe its 2 or its 40, either way triage and transport as available.

Ignore that fact that its a plane crash and focus on the elements and its nothing that any agency shouldn't be able to handle. who knows, maybe net week it'll be a Carrera GT into a fuel tanker into a church van just as easily as it could be an A320 onto 684.

1987, see the report here. There was a second crash on the soccer field at Pleasantville HS within a year where the pilot walked away. I think little common sense goes a long away, but then again common sense aint common. As mentioned, it is similar to a minivan crash. If extrication is needed, we normally try to force the door, same on a small aircraft. Larger craft (commercial) are better marked. chances are if it did not spill during he crash, the tanks should remain intact if you need to force a door. Take precaution for fire, such as a line stretched and charged, foam if you got it. If it has spilled, and not ignited, cover with foam.

Edited June 22, 2011 by grumpyff

[hudson144 150]

Most Departments in Westchester could handle a small General Aviation (GA) Aircraft going down. We have had motor vehicle accidents on our roadways that were more horrific then when a small plane has gone down. In the past years there have been many crashes all over the County. Take the time and look at the sky at night especially if you are on the sound or the Hudson. The big difference IMO with a large frame aircraft is the resources and coordination needed during a large frame event. Look how things go sometimes just on a buliding fire. The incident commanders will have their hands full and the need for pre-planning,training etc. is a must. A few years before Sully brought the plane down in the Hudson I mentioned to my students in an ARFF class I was teaching that a large frame aircraft will someday go down in the Hudson. In that case they had the resources to handle the situation too include many water taxi's that were some of the 1st on the scene. This could be a good training session here so post some of your thoughts that could make this a good training tool for others.