Piermont Hazing/Sexual Assault

[JimmyPFD 11]

I am speechless. It's repulsive and going to get posted. It might as well be a volly to put it up.

http://www.lohud.com...|text|Frontpage

My initial take: It's a slap in the face to all of us. Punnish the perpetrators, not the town/community

[16fire5 693]

What can we take from this?

-Sometimes you have to imagine how things will play out in the paper and the damage that can be done to the reputation of your orginization.

-If your an officer be the officer. It is your job to be the voice of reason when things get out of hand.

-It's 2011 this is how things are we are not going back to the old days.

The alleged conduct is both illegal and sick. Instead of making this thread another gripe about a black eye for the fire service lets try to be vigilant and do our jobs and make the tough decisions to keep or orginizations on the level.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

time to clean house and get rid of all of them...show them the chair across the street.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Unacceptable plain and simple...even the accusation in my opinion is more than enough to warrant their dismissal from the department; we are entrusted with public service, if we cannot act professionally in the fire house, how can you be expected to act professionally on call.

I do have a question however, was any sexual/workplace harassment lectures/training offered by either the town, the department or district? If so then I believe that the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of those accused. If not then I believe, especially in this day and age, that the town and department/district should be held liable. They should have taken precautions to protect themselves from this kind of trouble.

I know both my departments at school and home have provided me this kind of training and ensured that I understood the implications of these trainings. In Vermont I signed a document attesting to the the fact that I received "sensitivity" training and was bound to conduct myself accordingly.

[ny10570 745]

Unacceptable plain and simple...even the accusation in my opinion is more than enough to warrant their dismissal from the department; we are entrusted with public service, if we cannot act professionally in the fire house, how can you be expected to act professionally on call.

Seriously?? Suspension pending trial is expected, but termination just because they were accused is absurd. This is absolutely heinous if the allegations are true, but until convicted of a crime they are just that, allegations.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Seriously?? Suspension pending trial is expected, but termination just because they were accused is absurd. This is absolutely heinous if the allegations are true, but until convicted of a crime they are just that, allegations.

Yes. Two words: High Standard. While I am a firm believer in due process, in instances where public trust is violated or members of the public services are implicated in nefarious activities it must be dealt with accordingly. We are emergency service workers and are held to a higher standard than the general public, it doesn't say "man accused molestation in firehouse", it says "firefighter accused of molestation in the firehouse". You can be fired from a job due to an arrest regardless of whether it is warranted or a conviction is served, why should this be any different? I am willing to bet somewhere in the rules/regulations of the department/district/town there is a code of conduct that was violated with the arrest/implication of a crime. Like I said, higher standard.

If accusations are enough to make politicians resign, sports teams lose funding/season or people lose their jobs then it is enough to at least cause their forced resignation. If they have any self-respect/honor I would hope they would have done it already.

If we disagree, so be it...

Edited June 10, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[calhobs 110]

Both cases here start to make you think, how often does this happen, how many times does this go unreported. Maybe it is about time to start looking at our own Departments and wonder how we treat our members. Is our own hazing (which at is a nice word for bullying) the death to us. With three issues alone to come to light this year this is not just isolated incidents this seems to be a big problem. Its no longer proper to say "man up" or "dont have such thin skin". When your Department ends up paying millions in law suits or someone starts serving time do you then want to be told "man up" or "dont have such thin skin". The next step we are going to see is a Brother or Sister firefighter killing themself because the hazing has gotten to much. Then how will we react. I am not talking about good hearted ribbing and joking with each other, we are adults and you would think we know the line not to cross. But when it turns into harassment, abuse and assulat it has crossed the line to being illgel.

Edited June 10, 2011 by calhobs

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

Unacceptable plain and simple...even the accusation in my opinion is more than enough to warrant their dismissal from the department; we are entrusted with public service, if we cannot act professionally in the fire house, how can you be expected to act professionally on call.

I do have a question however, was any sexual/workplace harassment lectures/training offered by either the town, the department or district? If so then I believe that the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of those accused. If not then I believe, especially in this day and age, that the town and department/district should be held liable. They should have taken precautions to protect themselves from this kind of trouble.

I know both my departments at school and home have provided me this kind of training and ensured that I understood the implications of these trainings. In Vermont I signed a document attesting to the the fact that I received "sensitivity" training and was bound to conduct myself accordingly.

Seriously dude!?! You need someone else to tell you that it's NOT okay for you to have a teenage boy fondle your junk? So if your town didn't provide you with that "training" you'd have no idea that this is wrong? Your way of thinking (find someone else to blame/failure to accept responsibility) is exactly what's wrong with this country.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Seriously dude!?! You need someone else to tell you that it's NOT okay for you to have a teenage boy fondle your junk? So if your town didn't provide you with that "training" you'd have no idea that this is wrong? Your way of thinking (find someone else to blame/failure to accept responsibility) is exactly what's wrong with this country.

I agree with you 100%... people should grow up and be responsible for their actions PERIOD .....

[JBE 328]

SRS, you're kidding right?? The behavior, regardless of a sexual harrassment policy or not, is totally unacceptable. The administration should not be held accountable for the actions of these people. Will they be admonished?? Maybe. But the persons involved should be shown the door, and right to jail. No passing go or collecting $200.

[ptwatson 82]

Unbelievable! How did this hazing have to do with anything in the fire service. We all know we like to pull a gag on each other now and again. Those gags are for the most part harmless. Everyone gets a good laugh and we move on. This behavior is not having fun with someone, it's degrading them, especialy someone so young! If these charges turn out to be true and they are convicted I hope these sick and twisted individuals get what is coming to them. Good luck getting employment as registered sex offenders boys!

I think the state needs to do a full investigation on the Piermont FD.

[INIT915 1,119]

Unbelievable! How did this hazing have to do with anything in the fire service. We all know we like to pull a gag on each other now and again. Those gags are for the most part harmless. Everyone gets a good laugh and we move on. This behavior is not having fun with someone, it's degrading them, especialy someone so young! If these charges turn out to be true and they are convicted I hope these sick and twisted individuals get what is coming to them. Good luck getting employment as registered sex offenders boys!

I think the state needs to do a full investigation on the Piermont FD.

Interestingly, they were not charges with any sex crimes according to the article. Hence, no potential for SORA designations.

[INIT915 1,119]

Unacceptable plain and simple...even the accusation in my opinion is more than enough to warrant their dismissal from the department; we are entrusted with public service, if we cannot act professionally in the fire house, how can you be expected to act professionally on call.

I do have a question however, was any sexual/workplace harassment lectures/training offered by either the town, the department or district? If so then I believe that the blame should fall squarely on the shoulders of those accused. If not then I believe, especially in this day and age, that the town and department/district should be held liable. They should have taken precautions to protect themselves from this kind of trouble.

I know both my departments at school and home have provided me this kind of training and ensured that I understood the implications of these trainings. In Vermont I signed a document attesting to the the fact that I received "sensitivity" training and was bound to conduct myself accordingly.

Whether we like it or not, due process should and does apply. And, I personally never needed training or a class to know that this type of behavior is unethical, immoral, and illegal. If you do have members of your agency that need a class to know this, identify them now, because they are most likely huge liabilities to your organization!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Whether we like it or not, due process should and does apply. And, I personally never needed training or a class to know that this type of behavior is unethical, immoral, and illegal. If you do have members of your agency that need a class to know this, identify them now, because they are most likely huge liabilities to your organization!

Neither has anyone I know, or at least I like to think, however every job I have had (granted at 20, I've only had a few) has required me attend this type of training. This includes two universities, two government agencies, two Fortune 500 companies and 1 national law firm; the reason why they did this was to protect themselves from liability so someone could not say to the employer well I think you are responsible for this happening because you did not educate/inform your staff about these policies, procedures and laws.

Its to protect themselves in so much as it is to educate/inform the staff what is acceptable or what is not.

You may not need this education, but unfortunately there are still people who do, as evident in these charges.

[INIT915 1,119]

You may not need this education, but unfortunately there are still people who do, as evident in these charges.

I disagree with this last part. "Training" would not have helped this situation. These three individuals were not mistaken in their thinking that this was acceptable behavior. They knew it was wrong and proceeded regardless.

[The Axe 8]

Sick! Sick! Sick! No excuse to put your hands on another person for any reason.

Gives the volunteer Fire Department a severe black eye.

[jack10562 414]

I certainly hope that, if in fact the incident happened as alleged, those responsible are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

We need to remember that these charges are just allegations. Yes, it is ugly.

Also keep in mind: It wouldn't be the first time someone filed "charges" against a person(s) that they had a beef with, as retaliation.

[ptwatson 82]

Interestingly, they were not charges with any sex crimes according to the article. Hence, no potential for SORA designations.

Huh, didn't pick up on that. I wonder though if charges are filed if that would/will change.

[ptwatson 82]

Sick! Sick! Sick! No excuse to put your hands on another person for any reason.

Gives the volunteer Fire Department a severe black eye.

I think it gives the Piermont FD a severe black eye not the volunteer fire service in general....

[helicopper 1,050]

Interestingly, they were not charges with any sex crimes according to the article. Hence, no potential for SORA designations.

Yet! There're some other charges that could (should?) be leveled against them based just on the article.

It is hard to believe that in 2011 people still condone and engage in this type of behavior. The FD as a whole and the Town do have responsibility and I would argue vicarious liability to allow such conduct to take place.

It is disgusting!

[JFLYNN 681]

I am speechless. It's repulsive and going to get posted. It might as well be a volly to put it up.

http://www.lohud.com...|text|Frontpage

My initial take: It's a slap in the face to all of us. Punnish the perpetrators, not the town/community

Yes, these alleged acts are about as repulsive as it gets.

However, the town leaders do have a responsibility to be proactive and take whatever reasonable steps to ensure such incidents do not take place. Those town leaders who fail to truly lead, and who put their heads in the sand about known or suspected problems in emergency services, (whether career or volunteer) should be held accountable as well when the inevitable major problems occur.

[BFD1054 1,552]

What is wrong with people? Absolutely disgusting. As others have said, the occasional ribbing/b*llbusting around the firehouse is one thing. In my years in the volunteer emergency services, i have never heard of anything this disturbing. I have also never seen/heard of "hazing" in the fire service.

If these allegations are true, let these sick bastards enjoy general population being known as child rapists.

[bad box 371]

According to the LoHud article: "The three firefighters were charged with endangering the welfare of a child, a misdemeanor, and second-degree harassment, a violation, in September."

I'm surprised that they aren't facing more serious charges. If found guilty, shouldn't they also be considered registered sex offenders? If the accusations are true, these are sick, disgusting, perverts ... there's no place for this in society, let alone in the fire service.

[E58RET 24]

I know of B Busting in the station but NEVER to the extent the individuals are accused of.Mayybe they should be exposed to real life in the South Bronx and really have thier B's busted

[x129K 1,393]

Thats the problem....it's SUPPOSED to be ball busting...ball breakin'....but never, EVER ball touching!

I TRULY hopes that this is seen as an eye opener for other people who engage in such shenannigans, but hopefully at a smaller level...just because you are behind closed doors at a safe place like your own station, there is no Vegas rule here...what happens there, doesn't always stay there. Even worse, it usually ends up on the internet, be it the news, youtube, facespace, or here.

And we wonder why most departments are putting video cameras in....

Shape up boys!

[ny10570 745]

HOLY CRAP!!! This is an allegation made by one individual against these members. They have not been convicted and as of the article were only charged with endangerment and harassment. I can't believe how many people have jumped on the bandwagon here. So, due process applies only for some crimes and some people now? I don't know any of the people involved, but I've seen enough high profile accusations of sex crimes later recanted by the "victims" to allow due process before running my mouth.

People losing their jobs over false accusations happens all the time, doesn't make it right. SRS131EMTFF, you clearly do not believe in due process, or atleast not a version that has any integrity. We are already held to a higher standard and they should be suspended as soon as charges were filed. You're youth is evident and you obviously have not witnessed someone suffer through a false accusation of a serious crime. I have, and you are absolutely treated as guilty until proven innocent in more than enough aspects. You suffer substantially until everything is settled and are never even close to being compensated for your losses.

[abaduck 123]

I dunno how it works in the USA, but back home in Scotland there's a lot of latitude in the law; the prosecution can hang a 'sexual' tag on pretty much any minor offence IF they can prove it was done for an unlawful sexual thrill, even things like minor assault, disorderly conduct, or breach of the peace, and if the judge agrees they can order the offender to sign the sex offenders register as part of the sentence.

I guess in a case like this it would hinge on being able to show whether it was done for sexual thrills (to put it crudely) or just to humiliate; to be mean and evil and bullying. Doesn't make it any less wrong of course.

Either way it's conduct that has NO place in the firehouse or anywhere else (to state the bloody obvious!)

Mike

[INIT915 1,119]

I dunno how it works in the USA, but back home in Scotland there's a lot of latitude in the law; the prosecution can hang a 'sexual' tag on pretty much any minor offence IF they can prove it was done for an unlawful sexual thrill, even things like minor assault, disorderly conduct, or breach of the peace, and if the judge agrees they can order the offender to sign the sex offenders register as part of the sentence.

The short answer: it cannot be done here.