Somers group seeks split fire, ambulance corps

[38ff 250]

What Im trying to get at is: A "dual member" rolls up to a scene in his POV. Both the FD IC and the EMS IC are there. Fire IC says "I need you to do fire stuff" and the EMS IC says "I need you to do EMS stuff" Both are lawful orders from the members command. Who does a dual member listen to?

Another example: A dual member gets into a car accident on the way to a call, and gets hurt. They havent been assigned to either Fire or EMS as to who they "are" at the scene yet. Who's insurance does it go on?

When I was in SVFD in the 1990's, I was both a EMT and FF, and it didnt matter as if you were fire only, EMS only, or both. It all was one big happy family. When I rolled up to a scene, I did what ever task I was assigned to at dual fire/EMS call by the IC. Say it is a PIAA with extrication, and both fire and EMS are operating side by side at the call. Now things are going to get hazy at certain points (examples listed above) as to which family you are in and whos administratively responsible for you if your a "dual" responder belonging to both agencies.

Where I am a member of now, fire (volunteer) and EMS (paid) are 2 seperate agencies and the lines are clear and we dont have this potential problem.

These examples are just things to be ironed out with some MOU's put in place.

Edited June 8, 2011 by 38ff

[JJB531 652]

What Im trying to get at is: A "dual member" rolls up to a scene in his POV. Both the FD IC and the EMS IC are there. Fire IC says "I need you to do fire stuff" and the EMS IC says "I need you to do EMS stuff" Both are lawful orders from the members command. Who does a dual member listen to?

Another example: A dual member gets into a car accident on the way to a call, and gets hurt. They havent been assigned to either Fire or EMS as to who they "are" at the scene yet. Who's insurance does it go on?

If both are telling you to do stuff, you can only do so much. Personally, if you show up at a scene, and the FD chief tells you to do something, and then an EMT/medic asks you to assist in some form of basic patient care activity, one could reasonably argue you're still working under the FD, especially if you're in turnout gear, etc. Most firefighters are more then willing to assist at scenes with patient packaging, etc., and therefore eventhough they are performing "EMS duties", they are still technically operating under their FD's command. Basically I guess what I'm getting at is that once you are operating under FD's command and direction, I would imagine that would continue until you are either relieved of that FD duty or your FD IC releases you specifically from the incident as an FD member.

If you wreck your car on the way to a job, will either cover you? I'm asking legitimately because I don't know how that works. Is the agency responsible for the way you operate your POV while responding to a job?

Edited June 8, 2011 by JJB531

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe IBM or Pepsi could fund a grant?

That ship sailed long ago. Both offered to pay for ALS for the town (way back when) and the SFD turned them down because "Our residents dont want paramedics when they are having a heart attack, they want a friendly volunteer from up the block to hold there hand".

And both already pay fire tax which supports the current system.

[CFFD117 19]

Another example: A dual member gets into a car accident on the way to a call, and gets hurt. They havent been assigned to either Fire or EMS as to who they "are" at the scene yet. Who's insurance does it go on?

I can't speak for SVFD, but in CFFD if you get into a car accident with you POV while responding to a call, your own insurance covers it.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I'm not sure, but they fund security and other things....maybe like an HOA fee. Heritage Hills has, in my opinion, a negative effect on Somers volunteers. Think about those places you always go to and how annoying it can be when you're paid......now would you do it on a volunteer basis?

Maybe IBM or Pepsi could fund a grant?

Heritage Hills residents pay Somers taxes. How can you say they have a negative effect on the volunteers? It's part of their Town? HH has as much right to the service as any other taxpayer in the town. I could see the point if they were tax exempt like so many schools up in Poughkeepsie/Arlington area but they're paying.

IBM and Pepsi already pay taxes. Why should they pay for HH EMS coverage too?

So one call in four is at HH. So what? That's where the population is, right?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

What Im trying to get at is: A "dual member" rolls up to a scene in his POV. Both the FD IC and the EMS IC are there. Fire IC says "I need you to do fire stuff" and the EMS IC says "I need you to do EMS stuff" Both are lawful orders from the members command. Who does a dual member listen to?

Another example: A dual member gets into a car accident on the way to a call, and gets hurt. They havent been assigned to either Fire or EMS as to who they "are" at the scene yet. Who's insurance does it go on?

When I was in SVFD in the 1990's, I was both a EMT and FF, and it didnt matter as if you were fire only, EMS only, or both. It all was one big happy family. When I rolled up to a scene, I did what ever task I was assigned to at dual fire/EMS call by the IC. Say it is a PIAA with extrication, and both fire and EMS are operating side by side at the call. Now things are going to get hazy at certain points (examples listed above) as to which family you are in and whos administratively responsible for you if your a "dual" responder belonging to both agencies.

For crying out loud, PICK ONE! Either be an EMS person or fire person on the call. You can't do both at the same time.

If both officers are telling you to do something different tell them to sort it out.

[antiquefirelt 994]

What Im trying to get at is: A "dual member" rolls up to a scene in his POV. Both the FD IC and the EMS IC are there. Fire IC says "I need you to do fire stuff" and the EMS IC says "I need you to do EMS stuff" Both are lawful orders from the members command. Who does a dual member listen to?

This is one reason why there is only one IC! Who is in charge of the incident? If the Fire Chief is IC, the EMS officer should be requesting additional resources through him/her to ensure these issues do not manifest. As Seth noted, if it's anything of interest most firefighters will lean toward doing fire duties, while others may understand they'll go where they can do the most good. While many of us, myself included, would much rather do firefighting activities, if life is priority one, then providing/ensuring proper medical care at a fire scene is just behind rescue, and likely ahead of property conservation. When you can't do both, do what can be done to address the highest priority.

Edited June 9, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[JohnnyOV 2]

Maybe IBM or Pepsi could fund a grant?

Since I work for one of these companies in Somers, I can attest that this will not be happening. They almost refuse to fund their own building's problems.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Just a question on your post Seth. If Heritage Hills were to contract out with someone, does that mean the district would pay for it? Or would they reduce the residents taxes to cover the contract costs in lieu of forking over some tax revenue? Not a bad idea...but also if its in your district it is what it is and that's where I agree that paid coverage supplmented by volunteers is the answer.

How many calls a year are out of heritage hill?

Or Somers could just continue providing the service that they're taxing people for. It's not like Heritage Hills has a high volume of 2AM toothache calls like you get in the projects. So what they're 1/4 the call volume? They're paying for more than their share of taxes in Somers arent they?

[Skooter92 7]

1) At a PIAA, the highest ranking fire officer is the IC. Problem solved. If the call does not have the presence of a fire officer due to no fire presence, then the Westchester REMSCO protocols clearly define who is in charge.

2) I'm not a big proponent of EMS POV responses, and it seems to me if you're taking the time and money to pay for EMS coverage to ensure two out on a rig, you shouldn't allow POV responses. Period. No reason to do so, and if you need more hands, then you request another rig or another agency such as FD. The days of the green light brigade are over. FF's responding from home to flesh out a response are a different story: different paradigm. You can handle a medical response with two staff members. A structure fire requires greater response, with more personnel/apparatus/positions to fill and relief to arrange for responders. I've never had to staff a rehab sector and put a FAST team on standby for an abdominal pain call. Why do I need twenty people showing up at that scene, then?

[Goose 188]

I'm also concerned how heritage hills residents have a negative effect on the volunteer morale. They are residents of the municipality, period. I'm not familiar with the area or the complex/community in question but regardless of who they are and how old or young they may be they are just as entitled to a timely and appropriate EMS response/treatment as anyone else. Either you're in it or you're not - it's pretty black and white in my book.

[x635 4,066]

I'm also concerned how heritage hills residents have a negative effect on the volunteer morale. They are residents of the municipality, period. I'm not familiar with the area or the complex/community in question but regardless of who they are and how old or young they may be they are just as entitled to a timely and appropriate EMS response/treatment as anyone else. Either you're in it or you're not - it's pretty black and white in my book.

They are entitled to an appropriate EMS response, and they get one from Somers FD. At the same time, you can't be taxing resource in the district to the breaking point. You need to make ajustments or additions to your system to handle call volume. In Somers, a typical EMS call takes 2+ hours. If you work EMS long enough, you should know that paid EMS has those places that we hate going to....now, being a volunteer and having to go to this location repeatedly (and let's include the nursing home in Somers too) is not fair, especially when there are other solutions in places. On some of these calls, they require the ALS provider, 45-M-2, to ride in routine ALS or even BLS. That takes the medic away from the district. If they need 45-M-1 or 45-M-3, then that takes ALS away from other communities. But, those areas don't want to pay for proper ALS staffing. You can't let the volume of calls out of one area consume your agency.

[Goose 188]

They are entitled to an appropriate EMS response, and they get one from Somers FD. At the same time, you can't be taxing resource in the district to the breaking point. You need to make ajustments or additions to your system to handle call volume. In Somers, a typical EMS call takes 2+ hours. If you work EMS long enough, you should know that paid EMS has those places that we hate going to....now, being a volunteer and having to go to this location repeatedly (and let's include the nursing home in Somers too) is not fair, especially when there are other solutions in places. On some of these calls, they require the ALS provider, 45-M-2, to ride in routine ALS or even BLS. That takes the medic away from the district. If they need 45-M-1 or 45-M-3, then that takes ALS away from other communities. But, those areas don't want to pay for proper ALS staffing. You can't let the volume of calls out of one area consume your agency.

Before i comment any further, i'm just going to say that you and i fundamentally disagree about this, and that's fine. Additionally, i don't know the area, situation or politics to comment specifically - my comments are general as they relate to greater issues (and i think that this is an issue for many communities).

I guess i just don't understand what you're proposing. Should we tell the residents who live in this area of question not to call 911 or that their emergencies are not emergencies? Does constantly responding to nursing homes, urgent care facilities or elderly living complexes over and over and over again wear on the provider? Sure it does. Just like going to automatic fire alarms wears on firefighters and responding to burglar alarms wears on police officers. That doesn't mean you don't have an obligation to respond and that doesn't mean that those emergencies are less important than a street job or those in a private residences. If this is not fair, don't volunteer. Volunteers have just as much an obligation as their career counterparts do to respond to emergencies - regardless of how big or how small/insignificant.

If a Somers EMT (using this name only for the sake of the discussion) is at home when his/her pager goes off and hears a job for heritage hills (insert any frequent location here) comes in and he/she doesn't go because of the location and this forces the medic or a security member to ride the job in or results in that job going mutual aid, then tell me - where does the problem lie? Is it with the caller? Is it with the Somers EMT?

This is not a Somers problem, this is a county-wide problem. As EMS runs go up - the hodge podge patchwork that is EMS in this county begins to tear at the seams. I think the issue is, is that these local solutions are just too expensive. Something is going to need to change at the county level before any of this goes away

Edited June 9, 2011 by Goose

[Bnechis 3,961]

They are entitled to an appropriate EMS response, and they get one from Somers FD. At the same time, you can't be taxing resource in the district to the breaking point. You need to make ajustments or additions to your system to handle call volume.

Did the Town of Somers perform an EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) as required by law when this development was proposed? Did the Somers Fire Commissioners comment on it (as required by law)? Did they advise the community that this development would require additional service and that might raise the cost of the FD?

Did SFD make adjustments to handle the increased volunm (and increased taxation?)?

If you work EMS long enough, you should know that paid EMS has those places that we hate going to....now, being a volunteer and having to go to this location repeatedly (and let's include the nursing home in Somers too) is not fair, especially when there are other solutions in places.

Funny I do not remember any of this in what I was sworn in. We have a number of new developments that tax our system, but we do not consider it unfair (on the part of the development). The solution, increase your capabilities to handle it. The community agreed to the development now live up to your word of protecting them.

You can't let the volume of calls out of one area consume your agency.

So then we should cut them off?

Either find a way to reduce the volume (education is one way) or increase your ability to handle it.

[TRUCK6018 50]

.....Did the Somers Fire Commissioners comment on it (as required by law)? Did they advise the community that this development would require additional service and that might raise the cost of the FD?

Ironically enough, if my recollection of the timeline is correct, the Somers Fire District had no control over the ambulance when ground was broken for Heritage Hills. At the time the Somers Rescue Squad was owned and operated by the Somers Volunteer Fire Department.

Sure, the fire district would still be required to comment for fire services but not EMS services.

Edited June 10, 2011 by TRUCK6018

[Bnechis 3,961]

Ironically enough, if my recollection of the timeline is correct, the Somers Fire District had no control over the ambulance when ground was broken for Heritage Hills. At the time the Somers Rescue Squad was owned and operated by the Somers Volunteer Fire Department.

Sure, the fire district would still be required to comment for fire services but not EMS services.

Interesting. The law still requires that all effected services be accounted for.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm not sure, but they fund security and other things....maybe like an HOA fee. Heritage Hills has, in my opinion, a negative effect on Somers volunteers. Think about those places you always go to and how annoying it can be when you're paid......now would you do it on a volunteer basis?

Maybe IBM or Pepsi could fund a grant?

I understand what your saying and I, like you wasn't sure either how that would work. Good honest answer bro.

On a side note...I don't buy the "negative effect on volunteers" thought though. Most agencies especially volunteer agencies pride themselves on call volume level. Is it a lot of call volume..yes...but I held off earlier by saying like it or not they are tax payers and invest in the services they receive. If they can't handle it...hire staffing and go paid. Plus not all calls out of there are BS jobs I'm sure...I'm willing to best there are some signficant medical calls that come out of there that offer a plethra of educational experiences for EMT's which for those that decide to move up to the ALS level will come to appreciate when they are Paramedics.

Are there places I don't like to go to. Of course...but it doesn't change the services they deserve..career or volunteer. I don't get to ask questions...I just go. Even as a volunteer I did...but I was a different era and a different culture even for my generation as prior military and coming from a southern department that was customer service driven which seems to get lost somewhere often in the northeast.