'Handcuffed by policy': Fire crews watch man die

[FireMedic049 597]

I read the article and it really didn't prove anything. It was nothing but a "he said, she said" article and gave the appearance that there was some miscommunication among the various agencies. Maybe the FD command staff didn't personally make the requests because they were operating under a unified command structure and the PD had already made the requests or at least the PD thought they did?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does the USCG enter into mutual aid agreements?

If you do not provide a service and you ask another agency to do it for you, can you call it "mutual aid"?

[Bnechis 3,961]

firefighters handbook 2nd edition delmar pub

Ok So they gave almost 2 whole pages. Another 40 or so and it could even be a good start.

Ok so its in the book, is the material covered in class? Any hands on?

yes we did and we also covered it in co drills and bat drills.

It is not in the state curriculum, so your instructor "added it". So what did he skip? Most basic water rescue courses are 20 hours and that does not cover what was needed in this incident.

As it is the FF1 class only schedules 6-9 hours to cover the 15 hours of Hazmat Ops material in the class. So did you get even less of that to fit water rescue in or did it come from some other minor area, like firefighting?

Wow, some drills. If thats all it took why do we need formal courses for anything.

You do not even know what information you do not know, this is the problem with having only a minor exposure to a serious topic.

[FireMedic049 597]

Right, because the IC personally handles all crowd control duties and doesn't delegate any of that duty to anybody else on the scene.

Additionally, last time I checked, controlling the crowd and securing the scene is typically a PD responsibility. From what I understand, the incident was being handled as a police matter and the PD was acting as the IC, not the FD.

[FireMedic049 597]

Ok, if it'll make you feel better, I'll answer your hypothetical question - I don't know what I'd do for sure.

Fortunately, I may never have to make that decision since I am trained in water rescue and my department is equipped to provide water rescue services and doesn't have a policy preventing me from acting in that situation.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

ff1 ff2 ff essenttials all they same. it was a basic water rescue, wasent ice wasent swift wasent high seas simple boat with motor life vest uscg approved rescue rope simple. let me ask same question again if that were a kid would it still be ok. that y i say again poor command staff lack of training lack of cooperation with other agencies.

Really....all the same? What county are you from because I would love to know what planet the curriculums you say are the same come from. Also its "wasn't" not wasent.

FF 1...84 hours and is the foundation of all training and is designed to train a FF to work under direct supervision. It doesn't discuss nor have any hands on skills in the curriculum covering any specialty rescue operations or anything even at the awareness level. Must pass a mid term, final exam and skills testing to pass.

FF2...27 hours and is a build on for Firefighters to start taking more action, be a team leader in a supervisory category. It has one section in a unit that covers other topics that discusses the different types of rescue operations and can really only be described as the bare bones at minumum a awareness type deal to be able to understand what others capable and TRAINED to handle such situations and how you may have or could possibly assist in such a matter and to recognize the need to call for specialized help. Must pass a final exam and skills testing to pass.

FF Essentials...probably would need some old salt to chime in more but I believe it was a whopping 39 hours, just enough info to get you killed...no live fire component and no testing what so ever. So please by all means try to explain how its the same or enlighten me as I'm one of the instructors that certifies instructors in NY state to even teach both the FF 1 and 2 curriculums. Which by the way you're not certified nor qualified to handle any of the operations you mentioned as you are not formally trained. You screw up...go ahead and say in court what your "instructor" taught you and he will be the next one on the stand with has a** in the breeze with no protection.

Maybe its just me...but either you're inexperienced, or have minimal training..or its just plain ignorance...but there is no such thing as a "basic" rescue operation in any realm. Coupled with the fact that the person was an EDP alone made it more complicated.

Rockl3...its competant..not compatant. And for the record..the only one that seems to come off rightous is you. 1 or 101 doesn't change a thing...you become a would be rescuer and then what? You still compromise the original victim because you are now the focus. This was a PD matter, would I have spoken to the onscene IC for the PD and talked about what I could offer or get? Yes and would have moved on from there.

Call it what you want as well..but spelling and grammar go a long way in building a mental picture on a persons intellect and their facts. Like it or not. I don't see too many doctors, lawyers, Paramedics and professional firefighters talking slang and ghettoese and if you submit a PCR I'm QA/QI'ing with bad grammar and/or poor spelling its coming back to you. My department has its problems just like every other...but I can tell you we're competant enough to know when something is stupid and unsafe.

Edited June 7, 2011 by alsfirefighter

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LMAO. Now I get it..you are a joke. Maybe its just you read like you spell. Read my post over...and slowly...in fact never mind I'll break it down for you one more time even though I don't think a divine intervention would allow you to get it.

1. We don't train in animal rescue other then we had a vet volunteer once to go over some animal first aid after a fire in a pet shop that many animals were in distress from smoke inhalation. And what I said was...I was involved in an animal rescue that we treated like a drill as it was minimal life safety risk. We took it step by step and checked and re-checked before going to get the dog. Little Timmy and the bystanders were quite happy once we did get him. And before yous say the dog could have bit me, it was exhausted by the time we got out there. Not that I really care what your opinion is from your previous comments.

2. You were trained in "all the water (I think you put it "warter") courses." So apparently either you went to the bathroom, fell asleep or your instructor skipped the PPE section in each one? Or is it you actually just think that the term PPE is confined to turnout gear? Personal Protective Equipment...just in case you're not sure what PPE actually stands for. So that means any equipment that will protect your a** for the task at hand.

I'll break it down in your lingo:

We donet due drills on anmal resq. We had a animal resque and we treeted it like it dun wuz a drill. o we took it reel slow. And yeah PPE dont means no turn out gear it means any equiment that gots used for a certin siuation.

Keep grasping at straws...I teach s*** for a reason...and I love to debate so keep coming pal. (Note you will never see "brother" typed for anything in response)

[16fire5 693]

If I was the Fire Department IC I would not commit personnel without a suit into the water in the situation presented. The fact that it was an EDP suicide attempt does effect the size-up. With 55 degree water and a not compliant rescuee the personnel in the water could be expected to spend an extended period of time in the water.

[FireMedic049 597]

I think you're grossly misinterpreting many of the comments and drawing poor conclusions from it.

I don't believe anybody has given any indication that they think the incident "went well". Clearly it didn't go well since the incident started with a conscious, live victim and ended with a dead victim. However, you're mistakenly thinking that expressing understanding of the actions taken (or not taken) by the Alameda FD & PD given the situation they were in and not rushing to blindly condemn them as thinking thing "went well".

Given the circumstances as I understand them via news articles and postings in multiple forums, they appear to have made the appropriate decision regarding a rescue attempt, however that also doesn't mean that the operation "went well". The arrival of the Coast Guard was not immediate and was ineffective and "plan B" took too long, so obviously the operation DIDN'T go well.

I don't think you have sufficient information to make the determination that either department's "brass" is incompetent.

As for being "prepared" for the incident, I don't believe anybody was arguing that the FD was "prepared". In fact, there seemed to be no hesitation by the FD to make it well known that they were not prepared to handle the incident due to the dismantling of their water rescue program at the direction of the city administration.

Well, I think a cliche answer is appropriate in this case.......

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[INIT915 1,119]

This thread has become a complete train wreck. You want to look away, but morbid curiosity gets the better of you!

[NurseMedic 15]

This thread has become a complete train wreck. You want to look away, but morbid curiosity gets the better of you!

Amen - I said before "Don't feed the troll," but I can't help wanting to see who's next to take the bait!

[helicopper 1,050]

Please forgive the disruption of this thread and the posts that were allowed to remain for entirely too long.

Many of the improper posts have been removed as have some of the posts quoting them. My apologies on behalf of the staff for not addressing this problem more expeditously.

Please resume the professional discussion.

[firebuff860 54]

The proper spelling of the word is competent. If we are going to rip apart others for butchering the english language, let's get the spelling right and keep run on sentences to a minimum.

[FireMedic049 597]

So does this change any opinions of the incident?

http://statter911.com/files/2011/06/drowningtimeline.pdf

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Just what I thought...crickets.

[Guest mjs7fd]

to all u nasayers read the last 2 articles in firehouse magazine and tell me if u still think the command staff is competent?