FDs Not Covering Their Calls

[Bnechis 3,961]

1. As far as the "said" department, they need to work on a schedule system so that they don't have to keep relying on their mutual aid departments.

Agreed, and many depts need to consider this

2. As for the "facility" that the "said" department keeps going to, they HAVE spoken with the "head honchos" and they HAVE given them fines. I happen to work at the "facility", so I know this for a fact! The "facility" does NOTHING to correct the problems.

Thats a shame. So how do you deal with it? 1) make sure you have a fine system that continues to escilate, doubling each time is very effective. Another effective tool is making sure the building is fully evacuated, while you perform a complete search for the problem, works even better in the rain or snow, also works well with large commercial buildings, like supermarkets & home depot. Tough on the manager when he has to explain to corprate why the loss of sales. Mandating a fire watch when the building is occupied and giving the manager court appearance tickets everytime......make sure there are different court dates on each offence and document everything. We found that the judges were unwilling to get tough without showing a history of the problem, they also advised us that once a pattern is established and they start seeing the same issue in their court, they will consider contempt charges for failing to fix the problem.

4. A paid department in the Town of Mt. Pleasant? Are you kidding??? As a life-long resident of the Town, I for one would get on a bandwagon to vote down such a proposal. To increase our already high taxes to cover false alarms - which, yes, that is the majority of calls, would be totally ridiculous and would run every "old timer" out of the Town. My suggestion - grow a set of "balls" and start cracking down on members who are refusing to drive and/or respond. Or go back to the automatic dual response.

I did not suggest a paid dept. I suggested that if the town fails to effectivly handle the problem, the fire districts only response is a paid dept and clearly from your response that will stir the pot....just make sure its directed at the town for the problem and I believe they will solve the problem.

5. I think most departments have "frequent flyers" or facilities that call on a regular basis. Unfortunately, you are required to respond no matter what. The standpoint I take is when the call comes in, just think if YOU were that person or your family member waiting for that fire truck or ambulance, how would you feel if they didn't show up???

Agreed, the problem is clear that many responders simply stop showing up.

By the way, I sympathize with the "said" department because I believe most departments have been there at one time or another. They just need to address the issues head on and come up with a solution, so that people like problEMS don't get on here strictly to "stir the pot".

Excellent.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The statements your are trying to get across is that vollies do not save money in my experience this is the majority of the time not true but with everything I am sure there are exceptions. To say a resident pays more for a vollie then FDNY how to you come to that figure? If its the tax cost look at the difference in population not including the tax base from business in NYC, even just the Burroughs separately if thats how they slice the pie vs. the area that the vollie department covers.

If you look at the per capita costs or better look at the amount of tax paid by each property is higher the lower the communities population is. This is not just a vollie issue. Yonkers properties pay less than New Rochelle and have better staffing, NYC pays less than Yonkers and has better staffing than Yonkers. Two years ago I evaluated the property tax in 15 volunteer fire districts in Westchester and found that the average property tax bill for fire protection was higher than the average was in the 3 cities listed above.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Isnt this a state level issue then, and not a specific department issue? I feel real crappy now, knowing that I may have received a certificate for a class that is worthless. If there is a curriculum for Firefighter I than it should be the same for me as it is for you, shame on the authority that has jurisdiction on training standards for allowing this.

This is one of the more frustrating aspects of being an instructor. For decades, you passed the course if you showed up and signed in and you passed. No testing. I've had students who fell asleep in the classroom and we left them, and went out to the drill yard. I have also seen many students who it was clear the dept did not want to drop, and was hopping we would wash them out and "solve" their problem. How as an instructor do pass a student who cant or wont wear SCBA?

Bnechis, who can I talk to to start the change? Who can I most effectively wine to to get oiled? This needs addressed soon.

Great question, As JohnnyOV states below, this problem has been created by FASNY. But at a minimum, the Chief of the dept., can set the bar, as can the board of Fire Commissioners and the County Fire Coordinator. But to do so they need to accept the concept of quality over quantity.

Until FASNY realizes that they're actually hindering the advancement of the volunteer fire service in the state, and endangering the lives of firemen by allowing this 2 week crash course on firefighting, you'll never be able to solicit this change.

Well said

[SOUSGT 357]

If you look at the per capita costs or better look at the amount of tax paid by each property is higher the lower the communities population is. This is not just a vollie issue. Yonkers properties pay less than New Rochelle and have better staffing, NYC pays less than Yonkers and has better staffing than Yonkers. Two years ago I evaluated the property tax in 15 volunteer fire districts in Westchester and found that the average property tax bill for fire protection was higher than the average was in the 3 cities listed above.

The problem with this fuzzy math is you are not comparing apples to apples.

Yes NYC pays less in taxes than Yonkers and Yonkers pays less per capita then New Rochelle. But what you fail to point out is the more residents per square block, generally you will find that there a smaller tax levy per capita. Also all four cities identified have a substantial commercial base and collect additional revues through sales (and in some cases income) taxes. The true cost of fire protection may not be reflected. Also some of the costs in providing fire protection may be paid for by other city agencies.

The average resident of town next to a city will always pay more in taxes as they have to spread the tax load among fewer properties. We see this every year in the County wide levy. Let’s take the park budget as an example (nice neutral department). Every year the County determines the budget for parks is X. that line item is spread throughout the county and each household should be assessed the same! But it’s not! There is a complicated formula based on the total value of the property within the taxing municipality and then the value of the property. I believe you will find that the cost for county parks per capita in City A is less than the per capita costs in Town J.

Two years ago I evaluated the property tax in 15 volunteer fire districts in Westchester and found that the average property tax bill for fire protection was higher than the average was in the 3 cities listed above.

This may be the case but there are two issues that you fail to examine:

1) Was the total town and County tax levy (for those town/village districts) in line with the 3 cities listed? If you looked at the full time police department budgets, did they have the same per capita cost as the cities PDs?

2) If the volunteers were replaced with full time employees, how would that effect the tax levy as compared to the cities identified?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I've about exhausted myself on this thread. Its not going anywhere anymore. I thought the forums were more for sharing of information and ideas.

So making claims that you can not back up with facts is sharing?

However, with those like Bnechis who break apart and criticize every comment, statement or thought, I understand why there is not a more varied response or participation by others.

I am sorry that you feel that way. But you put a lot of issues out there and made many claims that you can not back up. I break them apart so my comments clearly address the comments and there is no confusion.

Almost 100 posts and over 600 readers, the participation is better than some worst than others.

When so much uncontestable knowledge is available from one source, there's no point in anyone else offering an idea, comment or opinion.

Why thank you. There is plent of room for everyone to offer ideas, there are many ways to address these issues.

A wise chief often told me "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"....while that makes for good stories, I have real issues when people make claims that are simply not true.

[gamewell45 258]

Don't talk to other volunteers, thats for sure. You'll just get a song and dance on how training standards are becoming way too stringent and interfere with volunteer Until FASNY realizes that they're actually hindering the advancement of the volunteer fire service in the state, and endangering the lives of firemen by allowing this 2 week crash course on firefighting, you'll never be able to solicit this change. The most you'll be able to to is get your department to require FF1, FF2, survival, FAST, rescue tech basic, truck company ops, Accident Victim Extrication Training, EVOC, and what ever else in included in the career academy prior to your probies riding.

That's great that you think that FASNY is hindering advancement of the volunteer fire service in the state; It's even wonderful that you can debate the merits of the issue here on EMTBravo.net; but wouldn't it make sense for you to approach FASNY with your concerns? To put together a committee of concerned firefighters from Westchester County and arrange a meeting to discuss the issue with them?

Debating it here is very convienient, but all too often, this is where it ends. If I felt as strongly as you appear, I'd get in contact with FASNY and express my concerns; for all you know, they may feel that everything down in Westchester County is hunky dory.

FASNY can't fix the problem if they don't think enough people are concerned about it. Be part of the solution, not the problem. Contact them and make them aware in writing and verbally of your concerns.

Edited June 1, 2011 by gamewell45

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well said. Couldn't agree with you more! Whenever someone brings up about flaws in a "vollie" department/system - it always turns in to the paid vs. volunteer discussion.

I just went back thru all the post and found that it took 73 post before it turned into a paid vs. volunteer discussion with this statement: "There is only one difference between a volunteer and paid department. Payroll and pension costs. Otherwise they're exactly the same."

Prior to that I saw no one attacking either side or making false statements about either side.

I personally am tired of the "Certain Ones" on here constantly saying that volunteers/departments suck! Put your money where your mouth is BNechis and show me how a paid department will cost me less than the $280/year that I pay for fire and the $35/year for EMS??? Especially when both VOLUNTEER agencies in my District have excellent response times with well-trained, experienced members!!!!!

If I connect the 1st sentence with the 2nd you appear to be implying that I have stated "volunteers /departments suck!". I take great offense as I know many excellent volunteers and many excellent depts and have stated that regularly and work with many vol. depts. This week 3 different depts called me for assistance, which I have always given. I have clearly stated that depts or individuals that hide behind the shield of "volunteer" while providing substandard service are fair game. I have also spoken out against career and combo depts that also do not meet standards.

You $315 is a nice low number, but hard to give a fair comparison since I do not know what the value of your home is or exactly which insurance district it is in. But I can give it a shot.....

I pay $425 for a 100% career FD and all ALS EMS. I know exactly what services will show up at my house in 3 minutes. Do I pay more because of the services or because of the value of my home compared to yours...do not know, but economicly what do I get for my additional $110/year? I get an ISO rate that is lower than every structure in your town, In fact some parts of your town are listed as an ISO 9, that means I save anywhere from $80 - $540 in insurance than a comperable home in your town.

The cost of fire protection is not just the FD Budget, there are many other factors and infact, even with a career FD, the smallest portion of cost for fire protection is the FD.

[rockl3 1]

fasny knows about the problem that is y they applied for a federal grant and received 4.5 million safer grant for recruitment thats a lot of money for recruitment.

[gamewell45 258]

fasny knows about the problem that is y they applied for a federal grant and received 4.5 million safer grant for recruitment thats a lot of money for recruitment.

That's nothing more then a cop-out.

Put it in writing; meet with them. Otherwise complaining about it in here is tanamount to talking to yourself.

FASNY also has their annual convention in August; you can always draft a resolution stating your issues and submit it for passage.

Edited June 1, 2011 by gamewell45

[rockl3 1]

i think the volunteer fire service might have outlasted its usefullness in many suburban areas in the state pop. increases demand for services,two income families,time,

[16fire5 693]

However, with those like Bnechis who break apart and criticize every comment, statement or thought, I understand why there is not a more varied response or participation by others. When so much uncontestable knowledge is available from one source, there's no point in anyone else offering an idea, comment or opinion.

While he requires no defense here I will point out that if you follow these threads Bnechis provides plenty of good information. If a volunteer any depatment was looking at all the ways to make themselves more compliant you could get a lot of good information from his posts. And then there is ISO if you take note of the information he provides and apply it I'm sure a lot of places could improve their ratings. Plenty of good information that your getting here for free.

[JohnnyOV 2]

That's great that you think that FASNY is hindering advancement of the volunteer fire service in the state; It's even wonderful that you can debate the merits of the issue here on EMTBravo.net; but wouldn't it make sense for you to approach FASNY with your concerns? To put together a committee of concerned firefighters from Westchester County and arrange a meeting to discuss the issue with them?

Debating it here is very convienient, but all too often, this is where it ends. If I felt as strongly as you appear, I'd get in contact with FASNY and express my concerns; for all you know, they may feel that everything down in Westchester County is hunky dory.

FASNY can't fix the problem if they don't think enough people are concerned about it. Be part of the solution, not the problem. Contact them and make them aware in writing and verbally of your concerns.

You bring up a very valid point, and I'm seriously considering it. My biggest problem is most volunteers who want equality in training, are my age. Sucks, but the truth is that getting the youth together today to actually try and accomplish something in government against the "old tymers" (sorry guys) is about as easy as winning a volunteer officer position, it's a total popularity contest. You'll have the older guys who are content with the way the things have been, and don't see the need for change (which I hear aboutin every firehouse, in every meeting) and the young guys who want to try something new, get shot down by the overwhelming majority of old guys who don't even fight fires anymore. Government officials don't want to fight the issues because volunteer firemen make up a huge chunk of the vote, and if they bring a bill to the floor to change requirements to be certified, they'll be voted out of office.

[gamewell45 258]

You bring up a very valid point, and I'm seriously considering it. My biggest problem is most volunteers who want equality in training, are my age. Sucks, but the truth is that getting the youth together today to actually try and accomplish something in government against the "old tymers" (sorry guys) is about as easy as winning a volunteer officer position, it's a total popularity contest. You'll have the older guys who are content with the way the things have been, and don't see the need for change (which I hear aboutin every firehouse, in every meeting) and the young guys who want to try something new, get shot down by the overwhelming majority of old guys who don't even fight fires anymore. Government officials don't want to fight the issues because volunteer firemen make up a huge chunk of the vote, and if they bring a bill to the floor to change requirements to be certified, they'll be voted out of office.

I agree there is a culture in some fire departments of being complacent in their training and its something that needs to change; sometimes it takes agonizingly long periods of time to effect change. It reminds me of when i first joined the fire service, SCBA's were relatively new to the service or at least in our region; some of the older members didn't feel that they were needed and "real" men ate smoke as part of the ritual of becoming a fire fighter. But eventually a combination of reasoning and pressure from various groups forced change to take place.

FASNY will be conducting their convention in August; this would be a good time to have a resolution drafted and submitted stating yours and others positions on training issues, etc. You'd be amazed at the effect that a resolution and petition signed by hundreds of fire fighters can have on the FASNY leadership; they will listen if there is enough groundswell support.

[firemoose827 324]

While he requires no defense here I will point out that if you follow these threads Bnechis provides plenty of good information. If a volunteer any depatment was looking at all the ways to make themselves more compliant you could get a lot of good information from his posts. And then there is ISO if you take note of the information he provides and apply it I'm sure a lot of places could improve their ratings. Plenty of good information that your getting here for free.

I agree. He and many others offer invaluable information on a daily basis for free and most people bash them for it. Does that mean these people were proven wrong and cant be mature enough to admit it?

If I could I would hire Bnechis to come to our county and give a lecture or a seminar on firefighting, and pay him all we could afford.

As volunteers, we all too often hide behind the term when we discuss the requirements and time away from family, yet when someone as knowledgeable as Bnechis speeks up about the training standards being less than equal when compared and that people may be entitled to a better service, these same people get defensive, and claim we are the same...Im sorry folks but we are not. Volunteers need to be trained to the same standards, plain and simple.

In regards to covering calls, we seem to have forgotten about the one most important thing here, the people we serve. This isnt about departments ego or reputation, we are talking about getting a trained response to every call for help in a "TIMELY" manner. Anyone worried about response statistics and call volume and numbers of trucks responding as opposed to number of TRAINED providers able to actually help mitigate the incident responding as fast as possible, realy needs to re-evaluate the reason you are in the service. Its all about getting help where needed WHEN needed, and not a minute later. If your house is burning and your wife/husband is inside, the last thing you care about is the whining volunteer firefighter complaining about his family party being ruined or the fact his boss wouldnt let him/her respond right away. You do expect to see trained help arrive in a timely fashion that CAN help you, instead of 20 well intentioned good hearted people who are not trained interior firefighters that cant save your loved one. To see a group of firefighters in full turnouts standing around unable to help due to lack of training is a waste...sort of like going to an ER for help and seeing people dressed in white lab coats but none of them are doctors, kind of makes no sense right? So why are we still letting newer members with no training ride to calls? Why are we letting ANY member with no training respond to calls with an expensive suit of gear that they should not have?

Sorry, end of rant. Thank you for the replies to all who did, and thank you Bnechis for your professional attitude and demeanor in handling some of the insults, your contributions to this site are appreciated by some of us and I look forward to more in the future.

Stay Safe everyone.

[16fire5 693]

If your not responding with 6 routinely something should be done. That's 2 in and 2 out with a pump operator and an IC. Your putting your firefighters, ICs, and the public in a bad situation. Here's a couple of examples that of the bread and butter runs that require this.

Activated Fire Alarm

Turns out to be a fire. We've all been there.

Interior Gas Leak

Your at 10% of the LEL inside or 20% outside. In this case members should be using SCBA and 2 in 2 out should be followed.

CO Detector

Turns out to be elevated readings. If members are entering using SCBA you should be following 2 in 2 out.

In all these cases this is the absolute minimum to begin operations. This isn't even considering for instance providing first responder care to a victim. In a fire situation the entry crew of two is either stretching (good idea) or searching. Ventilation and all the other jobs are not getting done.

[Future Fireman 4]

If your not responding with 6 routinely something should be done. That's 2 in and 2 out with a pump operator and an IC. Your putting your firefighters, ICs, and the public in a bad situation. Here's a couple of examples that of the bread and butter runs that require this.

Activated Fire Alarm

Turns out to be a fire. We've all been there.

Interior Gas Leak

Your at 10% of the LEL inside or 20% outside. In this case members should be using SCBA and 2 in 2 out should be followed.

CO Detector

Turns out to be elevated readings. If members are entering using SCBA you should be following 2 in 2 out.

In all these cases this is the absolute minimum to begin operations. This isn't even considering for instance providing first responder care to a victim. In a fire situation the entry crew of two is either stretching (good idea) or searching. Ventilation and all the other jobs are not getting done.

So....you want FD's that can barely get by with crews of 2, 3, and if they're lucky, 4 personnel, to staff with 6? How do you propose to fund that?

[helicopper 1,050]

So....you want FD's that can barely get by with crews of 2, 3, and if they're lucky, 4 personnel, to staff with 6? How do you propose to fund that?

In a word: consolidation!

50 FD's having personnel issues consolidated into 5 regional departments will have additional personnel to draw from and greater economies of scale to consider different alternatives.

[16fire5 693]

So....you want FD's that can barely get by with crews of 2, 3, and if they're lucky, 4 personnel, to staff with 6? How do you propose to fund that?

No one said all six had to come on the same rig. If you can't assemble 6 on the scene to fill the minimum roles then you are not able to operate safely.

[Future Fireman 4]

Helicopper, don't get me wrong, consolidation may solve that problem for some departments. If you have multiple FD's within a small enough area that can merge and that will solve their problem, that's great. But that's not the end all be all answer.

I know of a department to the south of me that covers one of the largest lakes in the state. They can barely get a crew out most days, and I've heard their dispatch toning them out for a driver and crew, for 3 times. It took them about 15 minutes to get the truck out the door. Now this was a weekday night before midnight, and they're just as bad during the daytime, even with the coverage staffing they have. From their site they have 2 firefighters from 0800-16:00, and 3 firefighters from 18:00-21:00. They've been trying for YEARS to get full-time personnel, but the town won't have it. Now keep in mind, this FD has only engine and truck duties. A seperate town agency, (Town) Rescue Squad, which was born out the town's Civil Defense, runs the FAST/RIT, extrication, etc., Between XYZ FD & XYZ Rescue, they have about 50 personnel, running out of 2 stations. And the FD has MORE personnel than the Rescue Squad out of that total. It's a rock and a hard place. They have auto-aid agreements, but the other FD's, like every FD, have their own staffing issues.

The problem that occurs with regionalization/consolidation is that, what equipment are you all going to use. If Alpha FD uses ISI SCBAs and Bravo FD uses Scott, and Charlie one rounding out the group making the 1 consolidated FD uses MSA, what SCBA manufacturer does the consolidated FD use? A hodge-podge until the packs are slowly grandfathered out? The same goes for hose. AFD uses 4" LDH, BFD uses 6" LDH, and CFD uses 5". What supply hose should they use?

Granted, personnel issues could be a result of intra-department politics, or a lack of active recruitment. Whatever the reason, FD's facing a staffing shortage need to take a good, hard look in the mirror and determine what they need to do to solve their problem.

In the short time I've been on this site (a few years ago and recently, a couple weeks back) it completely blows me away how many FD's exist within such a small area. My entire area is covered by town-supported fire departments. No fire districts, no village FDs, just Town FD. That's pretty much how it goes for my entire state, although there are some fire districts and village FDs, but they are more prevalent on the cape and along the Mass. shoreline than the rest of the state.

I could sit here for hours discussing what should be done, but that's not my job. I don't live there, and I'm hesitant to put my .02 cents in on a topic that doesn't concern me. I asked that question because the poster didn't give an anwer how to provide for 6 guys on the truck when departments have trouble even rolling it out the door.

That's all I got, and I'm going to step off the soapbox and go to the corner of the room and continue to see how this topic turns out.

Mike