FDs Not Covering Their Calls

[Bnechis 3,961]

We considered, but did not "officially" implement, a designated night shift driver for "nuissance" calls. By that I mean the AFA call that comes in at 2:00 am for Pace Univ. New Dorm. 10 out of 10 times its the same morons with their microwave popcorn. So rather than everyone getting up I would say, or another driver would say "if its Pace New Dorm, I'll take the call". If it was any other call, or location, even on campus, all bets were off. If it turned out to be anything more than the popcorn we could re-tone. But of the 10 out of 10 times, 8 out of 10 we wouldn't even clear the station before we were cancelled. That gets real tiresome in the middle of the night, in the middle of Winter.

Wow, where to start...............

1st) who are the morons, the students or the FD who keep responding (or roll over and ignor it) without resolving the problem? We had a similar problem in one of our dorms at CNR, with AFA from smoke detectors, we forced them to change to rate of rise detectors near the microwaves and have not had a false call in over 10 years.

2nd) Whats the chance that it could be a fire? I hope no students are trapped. All bets are off. Re-tone? How long is the delay? Without lights and siren I've arived on your scenes well ahead of the 1st engine on a "cops reporting heavy fire" and I was driving from another community (in your flycar). Now you think the times will be acceptable, when most members will ignor the tones and go back to sleep. Your unofficial duty crew responds to the house, gets the rig and responds to the call (and they are in slow motion because we all know this will be another popcorn call). Once on the scene, if they find a serious fire and request a retone for a working fire, the rest of the members will start to head toward the scene. Honestly, what kind of delays are we talking? I know that that 1st rig took a minimum of 8 minutes to get there from the alarm time(and thats being generious). 2nd due will take how long?

3rd) Both OFPC & USFA have many documents on the problems of campus fire protection and also many case studies of 100's or 1,000's of false alarms prior to a multi fatal fire in campus housing.

I remember watching Boston FD pulling up infront of the Dorm across from mine, at least twice every night. The took it serious, full response, in gear, ready to work, after 3 months of this they rolled in one night and fire was venting from 12 windows across the top floor lounge. It was an automatic alarm (started near the micro-wave. They were suprised to see it burning, but there was no delay.

Yes its tiring, but ignoring it is unprofessional and will come back to bite the dept.

The ambulance, on the other hand, has always had designated night shift duty crews.

So is EMS more important than fire? Ok so nights were covered, but I always had to wait forever during the day

I often wonder how many of our residents, commuters especially, understand that we are volunteer departments and that there are not crews standing by 24/7 waiting for them to dial 911? I have had people stop by and say they came by earlier in the week, but nobody was there even though the truck was. Well meaning, but clueless.

Clueless, have you ever explained to the community who services are provided? Maybe they bought the whole concept that career and volunteer are the same?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Most people moving into Westchester, especially from NYC do not understand the concept of a volunteer fire department. Most see the fire department line in their taxes and assume they have a paid fire department., assuming it is like FDNY

Could it be because they pay more for the VFD, than FDNY?

[Dinosaur 844]

I often wonder how many of our residents, commuters especially, understand that we are volunteer departments and that there are not crews standing by 24/7 waiting for them to dial 911? I have had people stop by and say they came by earlier in the week, but nobody was there even though the truck was. Well meaning, but clueless.

You know this is what I hate about the fire service. Which way do we want it? Do you want to be dedicated professional firefighters who don't receive a paycheck or do you want to be well intentioned neighbors who may or may not be able to put out the fire or rescue a loved one who don't receive a paycheck.

It can't be both ways. You can't demand equal treatment on the one hand while you're saying don't they understand we're volunteers and don't want to show up at BS calls.

Are they clueless or is your FD clueless about public relations. If people think that the FD is staffed it's your job to tell them otherwise.

I'm so tired of the complaints about being treated differently because you're volunteer and then demanded that you be treated differently because you're volunteer. Do it right, do it professionally, do it promptly and it won't matter whether you're paid or not.

[Dinosaur 844]

We considered, but did not "officially" implement, a designated night shift driver for "nuissance" calls. By that I mean the AFA call that comes in at 2:00 am for Pace Univ. New Dorm. 10 out of 10 times its the same morons with their microwave popcorn. So rather than everyone getting up I would say, or another driver would say "if its Pace New Dorm, I'll take the call". If it was any other call, or location, even on campus, all bets were off. If it turned out to be anything more than the popcorn we could re-tone. But of the 10 out of 10 times, 8 out of 10 we wouldn't even clear the station before we were cancelled. That gets real tiresome in the middle of the night, in the middle of Winter.

The ambulance, on the other hand, has always had designated night shift duty crews.

Didn't officially implement it, huh? Is that because it is asking for trouble?

How about sending the cops to check and advise if there's a fire. Wait, we've complained about that over the years and hate that idea. So instead of sending the cop who's already dressed, in the car, and on the road we'll wait for someone to get out of bed, dressed, drive to the fire house, and then drive to the scene to find out if it is really a fire. God I'm glad I retired. Stupid policies like this are going to cost somebody their lives one day.

As bnechis has said: solve the problem.

If you want to be a firefighter you have to take the BS as well as the real "jobs". Do it 100% or don't do it at all.

[Dinosaur 844]

Want to solve the problem about inadequate daytime responses in VFD's and VAC's?

Dispatch every fire call as a working structure fire and every EMS call as an extrication. Voila, problem solved. You'll be tripping over people.

God I'm glad I retired!

[MajorAndre 0]

I'm not really sure what is going on mid county, but I have been hearing 60 Control toning out for a certain dept in their neck of the woods for a commercial alarm. At first they toned out for a full crew but then they toned for a driver, which means someone had to ask for that specifically. Then 10 mins later 60 control is attempting to raise this dept via Trunk with no answer and having to go mutual aid to cover a commercial alarm. Did the person at this dept really just leave without handling this call? If thats the case this dept should be ashamed with itself. Scary part is that this particular dept responds to our County Executives residence...Oos did I give it away ...Hey I didnt say their name!!!! Thank God there are still some RELIABLE fire departments out there to cover the deficient one's tracks.

Dont get mad...just pointing out an area that needs attention in this county.

Not being a fireman, I really don't know the working and protocols of responding to a call. So I'm sorry if I say something here that you guys know is a stupid statement or question....

I have a questions----

1) Is it permissible for a volunteer fireman to go directly to the scene of the call in his or her own personal vehicle?

I think this would save time for the fireman leaving his or her day job to go directly to the scene with the blue light flashing on their car. Might also let firemen further away have to abilty to just turn around and go back to their day job if a false alarm is declared.

2) Is there a law that says you HAVE to have a certain number of people ON a truck or engine before it leaves the station?

This could mean a driver can bring a truck or engine to the scene of the call and everyone just meet the truck there.

Please don't all jump on me at once---haha----- but I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Is it permissible for a volunteer fireman to go directly to the scene of the call in his or her own personal vehicle?

There are no laws that prevent this, however some depts do not allow it and on interstates, the state police will ticket private vehicles that stop.

While this may solve the pro blem of people responding it creates a number of problems:

1) crowded incident scenes. Often there is not enough room for apparatus and hose. Sometimes the extra vehicles create a safety hazard.

2) accountability - It is critical that we know who is on-scene and what they are doing. THere have been a number of cases where no one knew that FF Smith was dead in the fire, till the rigs packed up and someone noticed his car.

3) assignments - Firefighting is a team effort. Depts often assign duties based on seat assignment. It is much harder to organize the team when they do not arrive together. Think of a football team arrives at the stadium and goes right on the field without assignments or plays and no time for a hudle.

4) some depts have many issues with "responding" members with blue lights. This is well documented elsewhere on EMTBravo.

2) Is there a law that says you HAVE to have a certain number of people ON a truck or engine before it leaves the station? This could mean a driver can bring a truck or engine to the scene of the call and everyone just meet the truck there.

There is a federal and state law that requires a minimum number of interior qualified personnel prior to entering a hazardous atmospher (fire, hazmat or confined space). What happens when the rig arrives with only a driver and no one else shows (or not enough show)? Tough to sand there knowing you cant help and time was wasted, when mutual aid could have already been requested.

BTW I thought you were hung as a spy at 12 noon on October 2, 1780?

[SECTMB 612]

Well I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but perhaps I shall. Our 'unofficial' arrangement was between my brother and myself. Since I lived alone I often gave him the option of 'rolling over' should he choose to do so and not walk up the whole family only to return in 15 minutes. We also made many attempts over the years to rectify the false alarms, but that seems to adjust itself based on the student turnover. And, despite our annoyance at the repeated false alarms, we have constantly reminded ourselves of the potential for our own Rutgers tragedy. Also, we have a member who was himself caught, and last man out, in a dorm fire, so we know the dangers.

If you're in the fly car and get a jump on the call you know that you can pretty much cover the district in the 4 to 5 minute lag time it takes us just to get to the firehouse. You also know that following the FD dispatch, the PD are dispatched to check it out and that three fire companies from two firehouses are responding. I never meant to imply, and did not think it read, that we were lackadaisical about responding.

But, volunteer departments are being inundated with, yes nuissance or unnecessary calls because the public education that has permeated the citizenry is "got a problem? call 911". I guess I'm too old school now. A few years back I awakened at 3:00 in the morning with abdominal pain, being an EMT I self diagnosed Appendicitis. Did I dial 91?, no. I called by brother, woke him up and told him to come and get me and take me to the ER. A few hours later, the appendiz was removed. I didn't need to tie up an ambulance or a fly car to get me the 3 miles to the hospital. Today a hang nail is a 911 call.

I told my nephews before I left that I thought they would be the last generation in our family to be volunteer firefighters. OSHA, politics and nuisance calls will destroy the volunteer department despite the best intentions and dedication of the few who will want to see it continue. Look at the recent threads about sounding the Sirens and Horns. You can't inconvenience the public long enough to rally the members to come to their assistance.

I want to express my own exception to one of the prior post comments. I'm not glad to be 'retired'. I miss it everyday and if I could be, I would be one of those who stuck it out to the very end, warts and all. I've accomplished a few things in my life, so far, but none more rewarding or memorable as certain times when the alarm sounded. And to the 'commuters' and 'others' I made reference to previously, they'll know when it stops being the neighbor down the street that they never met who volunteers to serve, they'll see it in their tax bill and, no, the current cost of a volunteer fire department pales in comparison to a paid department.

There is only one difference between a volunteer and paid department. Payroll and pension costs. Otherwise they're exactly the same. Same equipment, same calls, same dangers and outcomes, its just that there are no payroll and pension costs with a volunteer department. The public will understand that when all fire service functions inevitably go full time paid staff.

My one regret of my fire/EMS service is that after 37 years, I just had the memories and satisfaction of having selflessly served the various communities I lived in. Right now though, I'd kinda like the pension that would have gone with the 37 years.

[Dinosaur 844]

There is only one difference between a volunteer and paid department. Payroll and pension costs. Otherwise they're exactly the same. Same equipment, same calls, same dangers and outcomes, its just that there are no payroll and pension costs with a volunteer department. The public will understand that when all fire service functions inevitably go full time paid staff.

I wish your statement was true. There are many differences besides payroll and pensions and they were like a cancer in my department for years creating animosity between the paid guys and volunteers. I know that they still exist today so you're either naive or in denial.

Disparate levels of training, widely varying levels of commitment, poor accountability of volunteers, varying levels of fitness, etc. are all differences between paid and volunteer.

You cannot compare FF 1 class to a career academy and claim they're equal.

And just to be accurate, there are pension costs in a lot of volunteer agencies. LOSAP programs cost money and are the volunteer equivalent of a pension.

We should demand equal training and promote more combination departments to insure that those who need it can get it. The people stuck in the anti-career or anti-volunteer camps are nothing but problems.

[SECTMB 612]

I wish your statement was true. There are many differences besides payroll and pensions and they were like a cancer in my department for years creating animosity between the paid guys and volunteers. I know that they still exist today so you're either naive or in denial.

Disparate levels of training, widely varying levels of commitment, poor accountability of volunteers, varying levels of fitness, etc. are all differences between paid and volunteer.

You cannot compare FF 1 class to a career academy and claim they're equal.

And just to be accurate, there are pension costs in a lot of volunteer agencies. LOSAP programs cost money and are the volunteer equivalent of a pension.

We should demand equal training and promote more combination departments to insure that those who need it can get it. The people stuck in the anti-career or anti-volunteer camps are nothing but problems.

Sorry, Mrs. Smith calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a paid department. She gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. Mrs. Jones calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a volunteer department. She also gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. There are volunteers that just have FF1 and there are volunteers, lots of them, with extensive training as well. Our dept. encourages advanced training at every opportunity. Fitness? Yea, all paid firefighters have BMI's <30 right? Volunteer departments put their members through annual physicals and their status is reflected by the results. LOSAP is relatively new, too new for me, and its end result has no correlation to a paid department pension. It may take a little longer for a volunteer firefighter to experience the call variety of a paid firefighter, but in time, you do. I'm not going out on much of a limb by saying in my years with OVAC, BMFD, LVAC, SSFD and CFFD as well as rides on a lot of out of state departments while traveling, I have seen it all.

Best I can change is sorry, same job, little or no pay. That anyone who would do this job without compensation says all you need to know about their commitment to the job and community they serve. Like I said, I'm just sorry I put in over 35 years and have nothing tangible to show for it. I had four buddies from my College's fire department that went paid. Now they've retired, collecting 5 and 6 figure pensions and concentrating on the business they started and ran in their "off time". I'm just jealous. Not bitter, jealous.

Unfortunately this has now deteriorated into one of those no win discussions. I had the idea for a "fly engine" to mimic the success of the paramedic fly car to ensure call coverage. I'm sure it would have issues, like insurance, but that could easily be dealt with. Combo departments still mean payroll that these economic times can't handle. Hell, according to what I read in these forums there are paid departments that don't have enough staff to handle anything above a single company call. I've no problem with it all being paid. I've said in previous posts that I think it should be on a a County level. I live in a Florida community in Palm Beach County. The County Fire Rescue department has four essentially identical houses protecting my community of 50,000 residents. Four Engines, Four Paramedic Rescues (Ambulances), Four Brush Rigs. Thats it. Sprinkled around the County are some Trucks, Tankers, Helicopters, etc.

By comparison, the much smaller Town of Ossining is served by two Village Departments with Nine Engines, Three Truck, Two Heavy Rescues, Two Utilities, a boat and Five ambulances. Maybe 20 years from now Westchester County will be providing Fire Rescue, much in the same way the County PD is absorbing some departments. Financially I don't think you can go paid to the level necessary without doing it on a County wide basis.

And now that all this has been said, who gives a $#&t what I think, I don't live there anymore. I just have friends that do and serve.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Random post but to comment on some other posts... Not all volunteer fire departments have LOSAP or any "pension" program.

Time to resume my position of sitting an seeing where this discussion goes.

Stay safe!

[MajorAndre 0]

BTW I thought you were hung as a spy at 12 noon on October 2, 1780?

That was my twin brother Andre', ...........

[Dinosaur 844]

Sorry, Mrs. Smith calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a paid department. She gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. Mrs. Jones calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a volunteer department. She also gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. There are volunteers that just have FF1 and there are volunteers, lots of them, with extensive training as well. Our dept. encourages advanced training at every opportunity. Fitness? Yea, all paid firefighters have BMI's <30 right? Volunteer departments put their members through annual physicals and their status is reflected by the results. LOSAP is relatively new, too new for me, and its end result has no correlation to a paid department pension. It may take a little longer for a volunteer firefighter to experience the call variety of a paid firefighter, but in time, you do.

You're simplifying your example to make it suit your argument. Yes, Mrs. Smith calls 911 and gets a response. In a full-time, career department she gets (using your example) two engines and a truck with 10-12 FF's and at least a couple of officers in six minutes all of whom are fully-qualified interior firefighters capable of performing all of the duties expected of them at a fire scene. In the volunteer response, depending on the time of day and day of week you get two engines and a truck with a couple of drivers, a couple of exterior FF, a couple of interior FF and maybe (if they're not at work) an officer in 12-15 minutes.

I'm not saying all agencies have this problem. I'm saying that there is no "standard" and there are people running around calling themselves firefighters who aren't. They can't fight fires and they have minimal training.

I know that not everyone has LOSAP but those that do receive compensation so there is a cost. It is disingenuous to claim that volunteer FD's with LOSAP or other compensation to members do not have personnel costs. I moved to a volunteer community and almost 1/3 of their budget is for LOSAP. That is just one example but nonetheless, it is a cost.

What are the fitness standards in the volunteer fire service? Again, I'm not saying that all career guys are Joe Buff but there is a standard and they have to meet that standard to be hired and to complete their training. Some jobs require them to maintain it too. There is no comparable standard in the volunteer sector.

Please don't confuse me with someone who is anti-volunteer. I'm just anti-hypocrisy.

[peterose313 345]

Not being a fireman, I really don't know the working and protocols of responding to a call. So I'm sorry if I say something here that you guys know is a stupid statement or question....

I have a questions----

1) Is it permissible for a volunteer fireman to go directly to the scene of the call in his or her own personal vehicle?

I think this would save time for the fireman leaving his or her day job to go directly to the scene with the blue light flashing on their car. Might also let firemen further away have to abilty to just turn around and go back to their day job if a false alarm is declared.

2) Is there a law that says you HAVE to have a certain number of people ON a truck or engine before it leaves the station?

This could mean a driver can bring a truck or engine to the scene of the call and everyone just meet the truck there.

Please don't all jump on me at once---haha----- but I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

I'm no fireman either but I know that in our department we respond to the scene with blue lights because a lot of the members keep their gear on the truck. We're also a large department. Even though you're a fireman responding to a call with a blue light, you still have to abide by all traffic laws. You're not considered an emergency vehicle.

[peterose313 345]

Sorry, Mrs. Smith calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a paid department. She gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. Mrs. Jones calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a volunteer department. She also gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. There are volunteers that just have FF1 and there are volunteers, lots of them, with extensive training as well. Our dept. encourages advanced training at every opportunity. Fitness? Yea, all paid firefighters have BMI's <30 right? Volunteer departments put their members through annual physicals and their status is reflected by the results. LOSAP is relatively new, too new for me, and its end result has no correlation to a paid department pension. It may take a little longer for a volunteer firefighter to experience the call variety of a paid firefighter, but in time, you do. I'm not going out on much of a limb by saying in my years with OVAC, BMFD, LVAC, SSFD and CFFD as well as rides on a lot of out of state departments while traveling, I have seen it all.

Best I can change is sorry, same job, little or no pay. That anyone who would do this job without compensation says all you need to know about their commitment to the job and community they serve. Like I said, I'm just sorry I put in over 35 years and have nothing tangible to show for it. I had four buddies from my College's fire department that went paid. Now they've retired, collecting 5 and 6 figure pensions and concentrating on the business they started and ran in their "off time". I'm just jealous. Not bitter, jealous.

Unfortunately this has now deteriorated into one of those no win discussions. I had the idea for a "fly engine" to mimic the success of the paramedic fly car to ensure call coverage. I'm sure it would have issues, like insurance, but that could easily be dealt with. Combo departments still mean payroll that these economic times can't handle. Hell, according to what I read in these forums there are paid departments that don't have enough staff to handle anything above a single company call. I've no problem with it all being paid. I've said in previous posts that I think it should be on a a County level. I live in a Florida community in Palm Beach County. The County Fire Rescue department has four essentially identical houses protecting my community of 50,000 residents. Four Engines, Four Paramedic Rescues (Ambulances), Four Brush Rigs. Thats it. Sprinkled around the County are some Trucks, Tankers, Helicopters, etc.

By comparison, the much smaller Town of Ossining is served by two Village Departments with Nine Engines, Three Truck, Two Heavy Rescues, Two Utilities, a boat and Five ambulances. Maybe 20 years from now Westchester County will be providing Fire Rescue, much in the same way the County PD is absorbing some departments. Financially I don't think you can go paid to the level necessary without doing it on a County wide basis.

And now that all this has been said, who gives a $#&t what I think, I don't live there anymore. I just have friends that do and serve.

Ossining doesn't have 9 engines, 2 rescues, 3 truck, 2 utilities and 5 ambulances. They have Engines 96-101, Rescue 14, Ladder 41, Tower Ladder 42, 4 ambulance (2 of which are BLS and 2 of which are ALS). The boat is shared between Ossining Police and Fire. It's mostly used by the police since they very rarely dispatch fire for a call on it. They also only have 1 utility truck.

[SECTMB 612]

Ossining doesn't have 9 engines, 2 rescues, 3 truck, 2 utilities and 5 ambulances. They have Engines 96-101, Rescue 14, Ladder 41, Tower Ladder 42, 4 ambulance (2 of which are BLS and 2 of which are ALS). The boat is shared between Ossining Police and Fire. It's mostly used by the police since they very rarely dispatch fire for a call on it. They also only have 1 utility truck.

Read carefully, I made reference to the total apparatus available for the Town of Ossining, served by the two Villages of Ossining and Briarcliff, whose combined apparatus are as described. I was making a comparison to the Village where I currently live, which has a larger area and population and is serviced by a paid County run department utilizing 4 stations with a total of 4 engines, 4 paramedic rescues (which up North are ambulances) and four brush rigs.

[dadbo46 50]

Ossining doesn't have 9 engines, 2 rescues, 3 truck, 2 utilities and 5 ambulances. They have Engines 96-101, Rescue 14, Ladder 41, Tower Ladder 42, 4 ambulance (2 of which are BLS and 2 of which are ALS). The boat is shared between Ossining Police and Fire. It's mostly used by the police since they very rarely dispatch fire for a call on it. They also only have 1 utility truck.

I believe that he"s talking about Ossining and Briarcliff.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We also made many attempts over the years to rectify the false alarms, but that seems to adjust itself based on the student turnover.

We have the same annual turnover in our 3 collages, but we solved it by enforcing the NYS UFP&BC.

And, despite our annoyance at the repeated false alarms, we have constantly reminded ourselves of the potential for our own Rutgers tragedy. Also, we have a member who was himself caught, and last man out, in a dorm fire, so we know the dangers.

How can you claim you understood the potential, but still had a reduced response? Even better, you allowed your selves to be cancelled without actually confirming the cause of the alarm. Sounds like a duty to act and a failure of that duty. Your 1/2 way to that lawsuit and its not like fires have never been discovered after the FD was cancelled.

If you're in the fly car and get a jump on the call you know that you can pretty much cover the district in the 4 to 5 minute lag time it takes us just to get to the firehouse.

I did not respond with lights & Siren, responded after PD was on-scene and called a working fire (FD tones had gone out 2-3 minutes before) and parked up the block so as to not block fire operations. I was always surprised that I still arrived in time to do a full walk around the structure before the 1st due arrived. In each case I had atleast twice the travel distance as the 1st due engine.

You also know that following the FD dispatch, the PD are dispatched to check it out and that three fire companies from two firehouses are responding. I never meant to imply, and did not think it read, that we were lackadaisical about responding.

You did not imply, you came right out and claimed members did not respond to these calls.

And to the 'commuters' and 'others' I made reference to previously, they'll know when it stops being the neighbor down the street that they never met who volunteers to serve, they'll see it in their tax bill and, no, the current cost of a volunteer fire department pales in comparison to a paid department.

Yes the VFD's budgets are much lower, that does not mean they cost less. I have found many cases in Westchester where the per capita costs are much higher for VFD's. Also property owners pay much more (often over $1,000 more) in insurance for the honor of having volunteers. Was it Poor Richard who said "you get what you pay for"?

There is only one difference between a volunteer and paid department. Payroll and pension costs. Otherwise they're exactly the same. Same equipment, same calls, same dangers and outcomes, its just that there are no payroll and pension costs with a volunteer department. The public will understand that when all fire service functions inevitably go full time paid staff.

I know its hard for you to understand, but having only seen one side, you can not. Those of us who have done both understand there are major fundimental differences. This is not to take away from what those active volunteers do (and many are very dedicated, well trained, etc.), but it is not the same.

Just in the few post you have made in this thread, some of those differences are clear:

1) We can not ignor calls or pick and choise which are worthy of us responding to. As another poster put it tone it out as a worker or extrication and everyone shows up, but your AFA in the middle of the night...good luck. As a fire dept we all have a duty to Act, but only career and rostered volunteers have a duty to act, no one else in the eyes of the courts has that same duty to act.

2) We enforce the NYS Uniform Building & Fire Code, which a. respolves the problems you have addressed, by making the property owner comply with NYS law. The initial traning to enforce the code is 126 hours long, thats almost twice the time required to be a volunteer firefighter (and it does not include our fire training). We are also required to have ifia minimum of 24 hours of annual in-service training to maintain our code enforcment certification. Here's a little irony over the past 16 months I did 48 hours of codes in-service (24 in 2010, & 24 in 2011) and all of it was done in volunteer fire house meeting rooms. During those classes there was always a fire call or 2 and we would have to stop the class till the horn stopped. Everyone would look at their watch and wait. Around 8-10 minutes the 1st rig would respond, then in another 6-8 the 2nd and in at least 3 cases the ladder rolled after 18 minutes. The standards for career depts is all responding rigs on the road in 1 minute.

3) You stated that the public should understand that you do not man the fire station 24/7. Well here is a major difference. Why the hell not? My Father Lives in your (former) Fire District and pays high taxes for the privaledge and you can not garuntee a response, but those who pay very little or nothing in the Schroder St projects in Yonkers or on the south side of Mt Vernon or the Horton/Winthrop Projects in Ne Rochelle or the South Bronx or any other undisirable location in any city in America has a gaurunted response.

There are many other differences, but its clear you will never understand that we are light years apart. This does not mean their are not great VFD's and poor career FD's or that there are not well meaning and dedicated volunteers. But the two service delivery models, particularly in westchester are not even similar.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sorry, Mrs. Smith calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a paid department. She gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with. Mrs. Jones calls 911 to report her house on fire in a town with a volunteer department. She also gets a couple of engines and a truck and whatever the situation found upon arrival is handled and dealt with.

I hope the tone out is house fire and not automatic alarm...Oh wait the career dept does not pick and choise, so the same response goes either way. Now if both are the same, why are the requirements for the insurance industry so different? For the last 107 years the insurance industry has required a minimum response of personel to reduce damage during a structure fire. The standard is drimatically different for staffing that is on duty in the fire station and members responding from home/work. For career depts (and vol with on duty in house staffing) the requirement is 12 ff's and 1 IC, for on-call (vol) its 36 ff's & 1 IC. The 3:1 ratio is on EVERY CALL. So to recieve the same rating vol. depts need 3 times the number of firefighters, does not sound like Mrs. Smith will have the same experience. These standards are based on national insurance claims for 100+ years and are the bases of trillions of insurance premiums.

There are volunteers that just have FF1 and there are volunteers, lots of them, with extensive training as well. Our dept. encourages advanced training at every opportunity.

Wow FF1 that takes just 2 weeks of the 14 week accadamy and we wont even allow someone with that level respond on a call. Yes many vol & career ff's have aditional training, infact it is required by state law for career depts. I have been an instructor for 25 years and I can tell you the difference in the training given is not the same. You may get the same certificate from OFPC, but there are many differences.

It may take a little longer for a volunteer firefighter to experience the call variety of a paid firefighter, but in time, you do.

Lets do some Math: A probie in my dept. will be assigned to one of our busier engines, which respond to 2,000 - 2,500 even with shifts and vacation time our probie will respond to 400-500 calls per year. This is more than the total call volume for almost 1/2 the VFD's in Westchester. In addition all calls will be under the direct supervision of 1 or 2 officers, who will work 1 on 1 with the probie. How can you make this up in time?

Best I can change is sorry, same job, little or no pay. That anyone who would do this job without compensation says all you need to know about their commitment to the job and community they serve. Like I said, I'm just sorry I put in over 35 years and have nothing tangible to show for it. I had four buddies from my College's fire department that went paid. Now they've retired, collecting 5 and 6 figure pensions and concentrating on the business they started and ran in their "off time". I'm just jealous. Not bitter, jealous.

As Jim Carrey said in the movie "Liar, Liar"..............and "the truth shall set you free"

Financially I don't think you can go paid to the level necessary without doing it on a County wide basis.

You are correct, this is because we have massive duplication of apparatus, equipment, stations, etc.

[Bnechis 3,961]

By comparison, the much smaller Town of Ossining is served by two Village Departments with Nine Engines, Three Truck, Two Heavy Rescues, Two Utilities, a boat and Five ambulances.

Read carefully, I made reference to the total apparatus available for the Town of Ossining, served by the two Villages of Ossining and Briarcliff, whose combined apparatus are as described. I was making a comparison to the Village where I currently live, which has a larger area and population and is serviced by a paid County run department utilizing 4 stations with a total of 4 engines, 4 paramedic rescues (which up North are ambulances) and four brush rigs.

1st) can you define a heavy rescue?

2nd) owning all of these apparatus is only usefull if it can be staffed 24/7/365 with qualified interior firefighters. You already told us that members do not respond if they dont believe its a "real" call.

3rd) Does all of this apparatus equal quality fire protection? The Town of Ossining has a split ISO rating, with part of the town being rated a 9. This is on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being best and 10 being no fire department. So lets compare it to Palm Beach County which also has a split, but its worst area is a 4. That means their worst area will pay 35-40% less on fire insurance and as you pointed out they have less apparatus to manage this.

[16fire5 693]

And, despite our annoyance at the repeated false alarms, we have constantly reminded ourselves of the potential for our own Rutgers tragedy.

I think you might be refering to Seton Hall?

[GAW6 66]

I, too, have sat back long enough reading these posts and feel the need to finally comment:

1. As far as the "said" department, they need to work on a schedule system so that they don't have to keep relying on their mutual aid departments.

2. As for the "facility" that the "said" department keeps going to, they HAVE spoken with the "head honchos" and they HAVE given them fines. I happen to work at the "facility", so I know this for a fact! The "facility" does NOTHING to correct the problems.

3. LOSAP - how can you compare that to a regular pension? I certainly hope your "real job" pension is more than $300/month!

4. A paid department in the Town of Mt. Pleasant? Are you kidding??? As a life-long resident of the Town, I for one would get on a bandwagon to vote down such a proposal. To increase our already high taxes to cover false alarms - which, yes, that is the majority of calls, would be totally ridiculous and would run every "old timer" out of the Town. My suggestion - grow a set of "balls" and start cracking down on members who are refusing to drive and/or respond. Or go back to the automatic dual response.

5. I think most departments have "frequent flyers" or facilities that call on a regular basis. Unfortunately, you are required to respond no matter what. The standpoint I take is when the call comes in, just think if YOU were that person or your family member waiting for that fire truck or ambulance, how would you feel if they didn't show up???

By the way, I sympathize with the "said" department because I believe most departments have been there at one time or another. They just need to address the issues head on and come up with a solution, so that people like problEMS don't get on here strictly to "stir the pot".

[Atv300 69]

I wish your statement was true. There are many differences besides payroll and pensions and they were like a cancer in my department for years creating animosity between the paid guys and volunteers. I know that they still exist today so you're either naive or in denial.

Disparate levels of training, widely varying levels of commitment, poor accountability of volunteers, varying levels of fitness, etc. are all differences between paid and volunteer.

You cannot compare FF 1 class to a career academy and claim they're equal.

And just to be accurate, there are pension costs in a lot of volunteer agencies. LOSAP programs cost money and are the volunteer equivalent of a pension.

We should demand equal training and promote more combination departments to insure that those who need it can get it. The people stuck in the anti-career or anti-volunteer camps are nothing but problems.

I Agree 100% that there should be equal training for vollies and paid. Losap is not in all volunteer departments and even if it was its no pension. The levels of accountability fitness ect. is a big difference in all departments vollie or paid not all paid are run the same as well as not all vollies are run the same. I'll give you the majority is in the paid favor.

Yes the VFD's budgets are much lower, that does not mean they cost less. I have found many cases in Westchester where the per capita costs are much higher for VFD's. Also property owners pay much more (often over $1,000 more) in insurance for the honor of having volunteers. Was it Poor Richard who said "you get what you pay for"?

Could it be because they pay more for the VFD, than FDNY?

Here is the thing about this statment that bothers me so correct me if I am wrong. The statements your are trying to get across is that vollies do not save money in my experience this is the majority of the time not true but with everything I am sure there are exceptions. To say a resident pays more for a vollie then FDNY how to you come to that figure? If its the tax cost look at the difference in population not including the tax base from business in NYC, even just the Burroughs separately if thats how they slice the pie vs. the area that the vollie department covers. Take Yonkers vs. ossining in 2010 Ossining had around 37674 residents and Yonkers had something like 190000 residents so yes per capita a vollie department can cost more if you compare apples to oranges. Take that same budget of a vollie department and spread it over 190000 people not including commercial tax base and see the numbers. In reality no 99% of volunteer departments could not come close to the service Yonkers gets from there department but they can afford it. Take my town for example 8500 residents give or take some day I am sure we will have to go combo possible paid due to sheer facts people do not have the dedication any more or the time to think about it when people have to work to stay afloat but try and staff a department at $100,000 plus a ff and see what a town like that would have to do. Lets just say it was 4 guys thats more then our whole budget. So yes there has to be alot of changes made across the board. Thats where if it ever becomes feasible a county wide department would have to be or some how a bunch of towns would have to pool the cost. I am just going for facts not to create any B.S. Because I agree with all my heart that alot can be changed with the fire service and some not all would benefit from paid staff.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Here is the thing about this statment that bothers me so correct me if I am wrong. The statements your are trying to get across is that vollies do not save money in my experience this is the majority of the time not true but with everything I am sure there are exceptions. To say a resident pays more for a vollie then FDNY how to you come to that figure? If its the tax cost look at the difference in population not including the tax base from business in NYC, even just the Burroughs separately if thats how they slice the pie vs. the area that the vollie department covers. Take Yonkers vs. ossining in 2010 Ossining had around 37674 residents and Yonkers had something like 190000 residents so yes per capita a vollie department can cost more if you compare apples to oranges. Take that same budget of a vollie department and spread it over 190000 people not including commercial tax base and see the numbers. In reality no 99% of volunteer departments could not come close to the service Yonkers gets from there department but they can afford it. Take my town for example 8500 residents give or take some day I am sure we will have to go combo possible paid due to sheer facts people do not have the dedication any more or the time to think about it when people have to work to stay afloat but try and staff a department at $100,000 plus a ff and see what a town like that would have to do. Lets just say it was 4 guys thats more then our whole budget. So yes there has to be alot of changes made across the board. Thats where if it ever becomes feasible a county wide department would have to be or some how a bunch of towns would have to pool the cost. I am just going for facts not to create any B.S. Because I agree with all my heart that alot can be changed with the fire service and some not all would benefit from paid staff.

One of the best way's to get a raw cross-section of a department's efficiency is to look at how many Fr. there are per capita. If you have two departments who's apparatus are equally staffed, how many Fr. are there per resident. Why is the FDNY cheaper, yet well staffed? Because size allows for efficiency. This is yet another angle with which to examine consolidation.

You use Ossining in your example. We can't examine this on a manpower level, because you don't know exactly how many people are available at any given moment and are ready to respond. Just for examples sake, take number of apparatus. If Ossining has 10 pieces of apparatus (give or take) that means there is one big red truck for every 3767 people. In New Rochelle, the population doubles and the ratio jumps to almost 9,000 residents per company. When you go to a larger model, FDNY in this case, you end up with an even higher ratio. There is one company for every 21,250 New Yorkers. Yet, response times run in the 4 minute area and there are always 28 Fr. and a chief on scene within 6-8 minutes, often less. Size and efficiency, the main reasons for lower costs. *cough**cough* consolidation.....for all.

[firemoose827 324]

Want to solve the problem about inadequate daytime responses in VFD's and VAC's?

Dispatch every fire call as a working structure fire and every EMS call as an extrication. Voila, problem solved. You'll be tripping over people.

God I'm glad I retired!

We actually tried this on a certain level. Years ago, we were toned out to "Chimney Fires" which usually turned out to be false alarms. (People see smoke from the chimney that is darker than usuall and they automatically think its on fire) After a while we would only get a chief and 2-3 firefighters for these calls, and on a few occaisions these chimney fires got loose into the walls and turned rapidly into a structure fire. Suddenly you have everyone and their brother coming to the call, each with their own excuse; "I didnt hear the first tone, must have been out cold" or "I was on the throne when we were first toned" or "I was outside with the dog and my pager was in my bedroom, but I heard the upgrade when I got inside"...yadda yadda yadda.

So eventually the county started toning us out to these as "Structure Fires". It worked for the first few months, until people caught on and actually lost manpower for structure fire calls as well, or people would wait for the chief to acknowledge on the air, because the dispatcher would tell the first chief on air that it was received as a "Chimney". So no matter what, you will always get the "Fair Weather Firefighters" that only come to the big calls and never train unless its nice outside (god forbid they get wet or cold on a drill)

I believe (in our county anyway) each department, whether its fire or EMS, should just be toned, and told to respond to the station for a call. When the first piece leaves the house with a full crew it is given the nature of the call. I wonder if this would end that problem?

Not being a fireman, I really don't know the working and protocols of responding to a call. So I'm sorry if I say something here that you guys know is a stupid statement or question....

I have a questions----

1) Is it permissible for a volunteer fireman to go directly to the scene of the call in his or her own personal vehicle?

I think this would save time for the fireman leaving his or her day job to go directly to the scene with the blue light flashing on their car. Might also let firemen further away have to abilty to just turn around and go back to their day job if a false alarm is declared.

2) Is there a law that says you HAVE to have a certain number of people ON a truck or engine before it leaves the station?

This could mean a driver can bring a truck or engine to the scene of the call and everyone just meet the truck there.

Please don't all jump on me at once---haha----- but I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

These are good questions, dont worry you are justified to ask them.

Our department only has 2 person cabs (driver and passenger) and we keep air packs in a compartment on the rig. Personnel will respond to the scene if they hear the trucks leave, and they are instructed by officers and fire police during drills on how and where to park at fire scenes, sometimes blocks away from the call, so they do not interfere.

Wow FF1 that takes just 2 weeks of the 14 week accadamy and we wont even allow someone with that level respond on a call. Yes many vol & career ff's have aditional training, infact it is required by state law for career depts. I have been an instructor for 25 years and I can tell you the difference in the training given is not the same. You may get the same certificate from OFPC, but there are many differences.

Isnt this a state level issue then, and not a specific department issue? I feel real crappy now, knowing that I may have received a certificate for a class that is worthless. If there is a curriculum for Firefighter I than it should be the same for me as it is for you, shame on the authority that has jurisdiction on training standards for allowing this.

I agree, the career school is MUCH more in regards to training and wish it could be available to those of us that want it. I took a number of classes in order to be considered as a Level II Firefighter though and not just the one class (firefighter II). I believe it was Fire Attack, Fire Attack II, Haz-Mat First Responder yadda yadda.

Bnechis, who can I talk to to start the change? Who can I most effectively wine to to get oiled? This needs addressed soon. There are times that as a volunteer I feel completely helpless and dont know where to go first.

Training has always been a big issue for me but until now have had trouble finding a decent department that takes it seriously.

Thanks for all of the great advice given by numerous members in this thread, its why I am a member here.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Bnechis, who can I talk to to start the change? Who can I most effectively wine to to get oiled? This needs addressed soon. There are times that as a volunteer I feel completely helpless and dont know where to go first.

Training has always been a big issue for me but until now have had trouble finding a decent department that takes it seriously.

Thanks for all of the great advice given by numerous members in this thread, its why I am a member here.

Don't talk to other volunteers, thats for sure. You'll just get a song and dance on how training standards are becoming way too stringent and interfere with volunteer recruitment and retainment. Sad but true.

I'm all for the same training standards between volunteers and career personnel. In Fl, the volunteers were put through each class that the career academy gave, but could do each class individually. They were not allowed to ride to calls unless their training requirements were complete. The volunteers trained alongside the career staff at the academy as classes were offered. There is no better system then this, as everyone received truly equal training, the volunteers could do it as their personal lives allowed, and everyone who was on a scene had the knowledge and training to actually be there. Weekly training was mandated with your company, and career and volunteer personnel trained together on the same topics.

Until FASNY realizes that they're actually hindering the advancement of the volunteer fire service in the state, and endangering the lives of firemen by allowing this 2 week crash course on firefighting, you'll never be able to solicit this change. The most you'll be able to to is get your department to require FF1, FF2, survival, FAST, rescue tech basic, truck company ops, Accident Victim Extrication Training, EVOC, and what ever else in included in the career academy prior to your probies riding.

[SECTMB 612]

I think you might be refering to Seton Hall?

Yes, Seton Hall.

I've about exhausted myself on this thread. Its not going anywhere anymore. I thought the forums were more for sharing of information and ideas. However, with those like Bnechis who break apart and criticize every comment, statement or thought, I understand why there is not a more varied response or participation by others. When so much uncontestable knowledge is available from one source, there's no point in anyone else offering an idea, comment or opinion.

[GAW6 66]

Yes, Seton Hall.

I've about exhausted myself on this thread. Its not going anywhere anymore. I thought the forums were more for sharing of information and ideas. However, with those like Bnechis who break apart and criticize every comment, statement or thought, I understand why there is not a more varied response or participation by others. When so much uncontestable knowledge is available from one source, there's no point in anyone else offering an idea, comment or opinion.

Well said. Couldn't agree with you more! Whenever someone brings up about flaws in a "vollie" department/system - it always turns in to the paid vs. volunteer discussion. I personally am tired of the "Certain Ones" on here constantly saying that volunteers/departments suck! Put your money where your mouth is BNechis and show me how a paid department will cost me less than the $280/year that I pay for fire and the $35/year for EMS??? Especially when both VOLUNTEER agencies in my District have excellent response times with well-trained, experienced members!!!!!

[rockl3 1]

for 315.00 a year for fire and ems is a bit high upstate u pay 325.00 u get fire,ems, bls and als and u get 250 plus person dept. that is on duty 24/7 365 and responce x with in 4 min with all interior ff not class abc

[GAW6 66]

for 315.00 a year for fire and ems is a bit high upstate u pay 325.00 u get fire,ems, bls and als and u get 250 plus person dept. that is on duty 24/7 365 and responce x with in 4 min with all interior ff not class abc

Sorry I wasn't more clear; that $$$ IS for BLS AND ALS service. A bit high? I don't think so considering we are in Westchester County.