FDs Not Covering Their Calls

[JohnnyOV 2]

A county dept (if it was legal to do) would answer to the county exec and would have to compete with other county depts for funding.

A countywide fire district would answer to a board of fire commissioners, whose only responsabilities are the FD.

Thanks Capt. Now are we talking about the "Westchester County Fire Department" competing with the "Putnam County Fire Department" for funding, or are we talking about 2 competing departments within the confines of Westchester County?

[firemoose827 324]

I'm not defending this "department", but don't you think it would make sense to hear the other side of the story from the "department" your describing before we all start castigating this particular fire department? Perhaps you could find someone from "that" department to provide us with some of the details of that alarm on the particular day? As i'm sure you'll admit, there are at least 2 sides to every story.

This was my thought as well. With the technology today, wouldnt it be possible that the "one" member that was origianlly on the radio called 60 control and told them what the deal was and they decided to dispatch the mutual aid? Just a thought to be devils advocate.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks Capt. Now are we talking about the "Westchester County Fire Department" competing with the "Putnam County Fire Department" for funding, or are we talking about 2 competing departments within the confines of Westchester County?

No just like in a city the FD, PD, DPW, Parks, Social Services, etc. all compete for their share of the pie. If a political agenda is in play one dept may loss to others. I.E. the exec believes that people want to spend more on parks then public safety......guess what happens?

[JohnnyOV 2]

No just like in a city the FD, PD, DPW, Parks, Social Services, etc. all compete for their share of the pie. If a political agenda is in play one dept may loss to others. I.E. the exec believes that people want to spend more on parks then public safety......guess what happens?

Gotcha now... How could I forget that parks are more important then someone's well being.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Gotcha now... How could I forget that parks are more important then someone's well being.

Well they aren't, but everything is cyclical. Nicer parks should equal a more attractive municipality and this brings people, people who pay taxes. Also, most people will never need the fire department and it's not always at the forefront of their minds. This isn't right, because no one needs us until the REALLY need us, but it explains peoples attitudes.

[FFPCogs 863]

Well they aren't, but everything is cyclical. Nicer parks should equal a more attractive municipality and this brings people, people who pay taxes. Also, most people will never need the fire department and it's not always at the forefront of their minds. This isn't right, because no one needs us until the REALLY need us, but it explains peoples attitudes.

This is absolutely true. The public in general wants the most for the least of their tax dollars and since most people seldom if ever think about the Fire Department until they need them, convincing them to pay more of their hard earned money to pay more firefighters is an extremely tough sell at best. And of late we have seen a dramatic upsurge in anti-union, all unions, sentiment nationwide which would further complicate a drive for more $$$$$ to pay more firefighters that most of the public does't think really work all that hard to begin with since they rarely need them. Cutbacks are the order of the day and volunteers even if inconsistent or expensive are precieved to be cheaper than an all paid force for something most people think they will never need. There's also the numbers game. Putting yourself in John Q. Public's shoes think of it like this, he drives down the street past the local volly house and see 6 big shiny red rigs that he helped pay for sitting in the bays ready to roll. Now you tell him that you're going to put one rig with 4 guys that have to be paid with more of his tax dollars there in it's place. Which do you think he'll choose? Perception is 99% of the story regardless of the facts, so in fact it falls on the VFD (or fire district) itself to request and then sell the notion of this additional money for personnel to provide an adequate level of service to Mr. Public. For that to happen the volunteer's concerns, needs and circumstances must be taken into account, otherwise it's a losing battle since as with most things in life money talks and Mr. Public doesn't want to spend any more of his on us

Cogs.

Edited May 27, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also, most people will never need the fire department and it's not always at the forefront of their minds. This isn't right, because no one needs us until the REALLY need us, but it explains peoples attitudes.

Most people believe that they will never need us, but they hope we are 100% ready to go as they dial 9-1-1.

What does this mean? It means we have done a horrible job of educating the public as to the economic value of the FD. In my city because of our ISO rating we save every property owner 3-4 times what we cost. If we got rid of the FD and gave back all our costs, they will see a 70% increase in premiums which is worth 300% of what they pay for the FD. If we never respond to a single call, we are a great economic value. Now add 8,000-9,000 calls per year.

But the fire service does not sell itself.

[rockl3 1]

most depts where i come from dont just answer fire calls the provide ems,bls,als some even transport and we put on our other hat as code enforcement officers so i think the tax payers where i come from get a pretty good deal for their tax dollar.

[chris498 31]

I like the idea of a duty crew; I'm actually suprised more departments aren't considering it. I believe - and someone correct me if I am wrong but - Elmsford was using a system like this at one point. Perhaps a member from EFD could weigh in. I don't think you have to stay at the fire house, but within reasonable responding distance. You make the commitment to respond on this day during these hours. That wouldn't be to say that other responders from that department could go to a call as well; just that these particular 4 - 6 members would be responsible for handling the calls on that particular day during those particular hours. If you had enough members who could participate, you'd rotate the crew to prevent burnout.

Also - maybe I'm a dreamer, but I do believe that there is something to be said about continuing recruiting efforts. I feel that every time there is a major event in the community, sidewalk sale, car show, antique show, country fair the fire department should make an effort to be there with a fire truck to increase visibility and a dialog with the community. Departments with staffing troubles during the day need to look harder at neighbors and friends within the community who work from home or in the community and try to urge them to join.

I also don't want to suggest that either if these ideas is going to work for every and any department, but I do think they are creative ideas that can help with a solutions. MTC.

[moggie6 54]

Plain and simple get the calls covered or put someone there who will do it for you. Start some where and if you have to pay someone to be there then do it.

Boss159 which departments are you referring to in your area that are pushing mergers because of budget issues?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I'm not looking to insult the drive or ability of the individual firefighters, not one bit, but Nassau and Suffolk are far from good examples of how to run a fire service. Again, this isn't a knock at firefighting ability or intention, but at structure and management.

As for the examples you give, I have a question about each. In the Suffolk example, you state that several departments have mutual aid agreements in place during the day. Some of these agreements involve the dispatching of more than two departments to one agency's incident. This seems silly. So, we get more apparatus than needed rolling and from greater distances because one particular department can't provide manpower during weekdays? Why not merge, pair down the amount of equiptment, better spread it among firehouses and utilize the manpower you have to the fullest.

As for the Nassau example, if they move the apparatus to one firehouse during the day (the time when traffic is at it's peak) why do they need all of the firehouses? Why not save money, sell the buildings and run out of that central firehouse all of the time. If response times are adequate during the day, then they'd surely be adequate at night when traffic is lighter.

As for the latter example, sadly, I'm sure each company has it's own bar in it's firehouse and that's why they much maintain these sort-of sovereign companys. We need to get past these old school ideas of how the fire service should be.

As for Suffolk maybe one day they will merge I think the Depts involved run with 1 station each. It is not an overkill on apparatus, nor is it a far distance between them, plus having members in house cuts down on response time.

In Nassau the 2 Companies that have "sub stations" do not have bars or lounges. They are very small buildings that house the rigs, it's a large district. They have I think bathrooms and a little kitchen area. No one hangs out there. They serve the membership at night that live in the residential areas where the stations are. Their "Main houses" have their "hang out and meeting room area"

At least a problem was addressed and worked out, may not be perfect but it's working and a solution to a problem.

Edited May 28, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[spin_the_wheel 460]

At what point is consolidation no longer and effective option? Using the Nassau/Sufffolk example, while it is great that they recognize daytime staffing is a problem and moved apparatus to a more 'central' location. But what if responding volunteer spend more time driving to the apparatus due to the increased distance, and it effects response times. I guess these departments allow these members to store their turnout gear in the personal vehicles or do they have multiple sets or do they secure them on the apparatus if they are able to respond that day.

Response times where never an issue, as far as getting men to the stations, and it still is not. The problem was having manpower scattered about the distrcit. Now they roll 1 or 2 Engines and 1 Ladder with nice size crews..4-8 on each rig. Not perfect but it seems to be working for them.

I really dont know how they work the gear issue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

most depts where i come from dont just answer fire calls the provide ems,bls,als some even transport and we put on our other hat as code enforcement officers so i think the tax payers where i come from get a pretty good deal for their tax dollar.

Unfortunatly, it does not mater if you are giving them a good deal, or you think its a good deal. The reality is do they think its a good deal.

And as a side note: do they know what a good deal even is? I find many emergency service personel do not have the slightest idea of the economics of emergency service. What is the cost of fire protection....the smallest part is the fire department, even if its 100% career.

[Guest HFD2198]

I'm not really sure what is going on mid county, but I have been hearing 60 Control toning out for a certain dept in their neck of the woods for a commercial alarm. At first they toned out for a full crew but then they toned for a driver, which means someone had to ask for that specifically. Then 10 mins later 60 control is attempting to raise this dept via Trunk with no answer and having to go mutual aid to cover a commercial alarm. Did the person at this dept really just leave without handling this call? If thats the case this dept should be ashamed with itself. Scary part is that this particular dept responds to our County Executives residence...Oos did I give it away ...Hey I didnt say their name!!!! Thank God there are still some RELIABLE fire departments out there to cover the deficient one's tracks.

Dont get mad...just pointing out an area that needs attention in this county.

I dont know what department you are from but i think u should find out the other side of the story. I for one am a member of this department and if you have any problems OR questions before you go and run your mouth about something you have no idea about you should really ask there are plenty of us on here that you can contact from my department

[rockl3 1]

i know where i come from when someone calls 911 for smothing as little as a headache or a fire call they r there within for minutes,that is the service they pay for. how much are these tax payers paying these depts. to not answer a call?

[CTFF 65]

I dont know what department you are from but i think u should find out the other side of the story. I for one am a member of this department and if you have any problems OR questions before you go and run your mouth about something you have no idea about you should really ask there are plenty of us on here that you can contact from my department

Give us the other side of the story then.

[16fire5 693]

I dont know what department you are from but i think u should find out the other side of the story. I for one am a member of this department and if you have any problems OR questions before you go and run your mouth about something you have no idea about you should really ask there are plenty of us on here that you can contact from my department

Funny thing is I had no idea what department was until this post.

[dwcfireman 656]

Give us the other side of the story then.

I'm a member of this particular department as well, and I wasn't going to say anything before, but since the egg's been hatched......

There are many issues going on withing the department. It's nothing new, and it's no different than many other departments across the country. The volunteer fire/ems service is notorious for it's roller-coasting, and we are unfortunately at an extremely low point. It's sad. I know. Thankfully we have a mutual aid system that works, and I personally thank the department that covered us for that particular incident.

Now, before you blast me for not actually giving you our side of the story, I regret to inform you that the interdepartmental issues at hand are not anyone else' business. If you happen to be a taxpayer of the district, I suggest talking with the commissioners. As for everyone else, I thank you for the opinions and your input throughout this thread. It will be taken into consideration to help solve our problems.

[SECTMB 612]

First, if anyone honestly analyizes this subject they will note that all firehouse are made of glass. There are very few volunteer departments that have not, at one time or another, either not been able to respond or responded inadequately. As has been noted, membership can be cyclical and the demands placed upon the volunteer today are increasing. No one should throw stones. No one should question the ethics or dedication of another department or its members.

So what is the answer? Is there any one right answer? Consolidation seems logical, but would meet with much resistance, at least for the forseeable future. Replacing volunteers with paid is financially impossible under todays economic environment. So how about automatic mutual aid? Duty crews? Or, what about a "fly engine".

I was with Briarcliff before moving to Florida. Years ago we started the "fly car" paramedic for the tri-villages of Briarcliff/Ossining/Croton. How's that working out? Well how about a volunteer duty crew for a "fly engine" on a rotation basis. Get two firefighters from Ossining, two from Briarcliff from 0700 to 1800 to staff the engine. One day or week the fly engine might be 101, then 98, then 94, then 92 etc. The crew, on duty at the appropriate firehouse, automatically responds immediately to any call in either Briarcliff or Ossining. No delay, engine on the road immediately for MVA, AFA, whatever.

If it works out, maybe Croton hooks up with Montrose or Pleasantville with Chappaqua, Thornwood and Hawthorne, etc., etc.

Now, given the size of the OFD and its apparatus I don't ever recall them not getting out and my experience in Briarcliff is that we always get out but I recall a few times when I took the engine alone and hoped I would find some help on the other end. Most of the area Depts do a fine job of handling their calls. But, wouldn't it be reassuring to know that at soon as the call is dispatched, a crew is responding?

Just another opinion.

[dwcfireman 656]

First, if anyone honestly analyizes this subject they will note that all firehouse are made of glass. There are very few volunteer departments that have not, at one time or another, either not been able to respond or responded inadequately. As has been noted, membership can be cyclical and the demands placed upon the volunteer today are increasing. No one should throw stones. No one should question the ethics or dedication of another department or its members.

BINGO! I owe you a nice, cold "soda."

I like the "fly-engine" idea, too. I don't think that will "fly" with the commissioners, but it sounds good.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Consolidation seems logical, but would meet with much resistance, at least for the forseeable future.

Ok lets consider who would be resistant to it?

The FD members - these members can be further split into 2 catagories: those that are strugling to make the calls and those who remmeber the good old days and are no longer responding to calls.

The chiefs - do they understand the personnal liability they have when no one shows up and they've known this is a longstanding problem. Yes they want to be chief, but consolidation does not mean they will no longer be it.

The commissioners - the ones who swore they would do what was in the best interest of the community. Do they understand how bad things have become?

The public - Has anyone told them, that the XYZ FD is having trouple getting out and their are 2 choices: hire people (and raise taxes) or consolidate....lets vote on it.

The union (while not applicable in this case, is a concern in others) - Do they fully understand the pros & cons of consolidation? The risks & benefits must be determined and discussed. Contracts must be considered.

Many places have done this, it can be done. Or we will continue to slide till we are gone.

[helicopper 1,050]

MODERATOR NOTE:

It may be a response (or lack of response) from one specific department that started this thread but virtually every comment contributes to a discussion about the systemic problems in the volunteer fire service and potential solutions. It is true that there are many problems in many agencies and we should all look inward before outward but this has been a productive, intelligent discussion.

There is no need to start jabbing at each other. Let's just keep discussing the systemic problem and how it may be remedied during our lifetimes.

Thank you.

[DaRock98 76]

I have sat and watched this thread for a few days now and feel I the need to step in and comment. Now that everyone knows what department we are talking about there is no "our" side of the story. The simple fact of the matter is yes we missed a call and yes we have staffing issues (just like a majority of the other Westchester County departments) Is this a valid excuse? Absolutely not! It's a MAJOR issue not only to me but my fellow officers as well. We are currently meeting and discussing this matter regularly to try and come up with a fast and effective solution. I do want to thank and apologize to our neighboring department that has bailed us out and that your help hasn't gone unnoticed.

He is a little background on the particular situation; we and another department had a duel response system in place for many years. We would run duel response on almost every call Monday-Friday from 0600-1800hrs. The system worked great up until the last 2 or 3 years. During the last 2 or 3 year we have seen a huge increase in call volume from this one particular facility in our first due area. (the same location that this topic started from) In the 2010 year we and our neighboring department ran approx. 60-70+ calls at this facility. 99% of them being false alarms. (From malfunctions, steam from a shower and the majority of the calls being malicious pulls of the box by students) That high number of runs to this place caused not only our department but our neighbors to be burnt out and not want to run calls there anymore. So it was decided (at a higher level than I am) that we would discontinue our duel response to all calls with the exception of smoke in the building, reported structure fires or anything else the dispatcher feels is something a little more than just an automatic alarm.

Yes we have some major issues we are dealing with right now and I can assure the land of EMTbravo that we are working on a solution. For those of you who say "hire career staff" you know as well as I do that it's not as easy as just waking up one day and hiring career personnel.

Thank you to all the people who have offered up constructive comments and if anyone else has any other questions or comment please feel free to PM me.

And to problEMS thank you for bringing this topic to light, it's clear that you accomplished your goal in stirring the pot and then running away. I have only one question for you, your age says you are 27 but in your age range it says you are 35-44 so what is it? Did you just make up a profile name to cause a problem for my department or are you so confused that you don't know how old you really are?

[FFPCogs 863]

Yes there are indeed many creative options out there, but with all due respect it is not only the Chiefs that must embrace them. This type of cultural change also relies on the the rank and file to enact and carry out those changes, especially in VFDs where members often vote with their feet.

Cog

I will revisit what I stated above earlier in the thread. In the end progress, be it consolidation, hiring, mutual aid ect ect ect only happens when the majority of the membership of the department(s) are on board with the necessary changes. There is no such thing as a one man fire dept therefore while a Chief may have the greatest, most practical and ultimately best plan for the public safety, if the members don't support it it ain't gonna happen. This goes for career and volunteer FDs alike. Case in point: I can think of at least 3 all career or combo depts off the top of my head that brought in outside Chiefs, new thinkers, to "progress" their depts in which that Chief ended up resigning or not re-signing their contract. Why? Because the career staff did not suppport the changes called for. This lack of support ranged from "blue flu" to union intervention to outright refusal to enact the policies to "prove" the changes didn't work. This is even more evident in the volunteer sector where members vote with their feet. If 1/2 or 3/4 of a dept quit or simply refuse to follow the program what then. All the tough talk in the world about how the fire service is paramilitary, and "let em go if they don't want to follow the program" blah blah blah doesn't solve the problem of a dept that can no longer function without it's membership.....i.e.the people that will actually have to do the work of all those great theories.

Change is a process and one that relies on the willingness of those who will actually do the work to do it. Force feeding doesn't work especially in the volunteer sector. Those that have been successful in incorporating changes and making them stick are depts that have the majority of the membership firmly behind those changes. To get those who will do it behind the theory IS the process and that takes alot of dedicated work, perseverance and a good salesman.

In my travels to find solutions to Stamford's mess there has been a recurrent theme. Those that have been successful in addressing their shortcomings have been so because the core members and the members that have earned the respect of their fellows have sided with the need for change and supported the efforts. This, in my experience, is how long lasting and successful change happens.

Cogs

Edited May 28, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

During the last 2 or 3 year we have seen a huge increase in call volume from this one particular facility in our first due area. (the same location that this topic started from) In the 2010 year we and our neighboring department ran approx. 60-70+ calls at this facility. 99% of them being false alarms. (From malfunctions, steam from a shower and the majority of the calls being malicious pulls of the box by students) That high number of runs to this place caused not only our department but our neighbors to be burnt out and not want to run calls there anymore.

This is a serious concern for many depts. and there are proven methods to attack this problem, including the following:

1) Meet with the facility, try to convince them that this is there problem. The crying wolf could become a real disaster for them and that their failure to address criminal acts by their staff/residents is a big liability for them.

2) Pass a local ordinance that AGGRESSIVLY bills for repeat and or malicious alarms. Fee's should be designed to dramatically escalate so property owners are encouraged to fix the problem.

Fire Districts may not do this, but the town (thru the building dept can) and in Mt Pleasant they have an ordinance that’s at least 10 years old, but it has never been enforced. I spoke at length on this issue with your Board of Fire Commissioners about 10 years ago and they said the town would not enforce it because they wanted to be "nice" to the property owners.

If the town is unwilling to assist, you may have to play hardball. Advise the public that the situation is so bad that only 2 solutions have been determined: 1) the town strongly enforces its own ordinance or 2) your will be forced to hire enough firefighters to handle the problem this will result in 2x- 4x increase in everyone’s property tax to cover solution #2.....If you do not want this to happen, contact the town supervisor at 555-1234 and demand he/she solve this issue.

3)With enforcement efforts, we were able to address the collages and they started fining students who did not evacuate during alarms, at 4am this caused many of them to rat out those who were pulling the alarms and it no longer was a "game". With the funding from the fines they were able to purchase alarm covers, which made it easier to catch those pulling the alarm. They also established an expulsion policy (without reimbursement for tuition & board) for pulling a false alarm.

Our false numbers have gone way down because of these actions.

[FFPCogs 863]

Excellent advice above B, hopefully they will be able to follow it..

Cogs

[Fireman488 57]

I like the idea of a duty crew; I'm actually suprised more departments aren't considering it. I believe - and someone correct me if I am wrong but - Elmsford was using a system like this at one point. Perhaps a member from EFD could weigh in. I don't think you have to stay at the fire house, but within reasonable responding distance. You make the commitment to respond on this day during these hours. That wouldn't be to say that other responders from that department could go to a call as well; just that these particular 4 - 6 members would be responsible for handling the calls on that particular day during those particular hours. If you had enough members who could participate, you'd rotate the crew to prevent burnout.

Also - maybe I'm a dreamer, but I do believe that there is something to be said about continuing recruiting efforts. I feel that every time there is a major event in the community, sidewalk sale, car show, antique show, country fair the fire department should make an effort to be there with a fire truck to increase visibility and a dialog with the community. Departments with staffing troubles during the day need to look harder at neighbors and friends within the community who work from home or in the community and try to urge them to join.

I also don't want to suggest that either if these ideas is going to work for every and any department, but I do think they are creative ideas that can help with a solutions. MTC.

Chris,

You are correct, we do have a crew system, but it is utilized at night between the hours of 11 PM to 6 AM.

It is a system that works very well for us, as we average approximately 1,200 runs per year (600+ Fire & 500+ EMS).

Fire crews (Officer, chauffeur and four firefighters) are on duty for a week at a time. Crew members do not stay in the firehouse, but are responsible for responding on all fire runs during crew hours. They are also responsible for checking the rigs and all equipment on Sunday or Monday of crew week.

Non-crew members may respond as well.

Working fires or serious incidents are a general response.

EMS crews (Officer/EMT, driver, 2 additional EMTs) are nightly, with a different crew on duty every night. Crew members do not stay in the firehouse, but are responsible for responding on all EMS runs during crew hours. They are also responsible for checking the rigs and all equipment on Sunday or Monday on a rotating basis.

Daytime response isn't an issue due to a good response from a variety of members who are Village employees, shift workers, college students, young retirees or those who work in the Village and can leave their jobs.

Stay safe,

Syd Henry

Elmsford FD

[chris498 31]

Chris,

You are correct, we do have a crew system, but it is utilized at night between the hours of 11 PM to 6 AM.

It is a system that works very well for us, as we average approximately 1,200 runs per year (600+ Fire & 500+ EMS).

Fire crews (Officer, chauffeur and four firefighters) are on duty for a week at a time. Crew members do not stay in the firehouse, but are responsible for responding on all fire runs during crew hours. They are also responsible for checking the rigs and all equipment on Sunday or Monday of crew week.

Non-crew members may respond as well.

Working fires or serious incidents are a general response.

EMS crews (Officer/EMT, driver, 2 additional EMTs) are nightly, with a different crew on duty every night. Crew members do not stay in the firehouse, but are responsible for responding on all EMS runs during crew hours. They are also responsible for checking the rigs and all equipment on Sunday or Monday on a rotating basis.

Daytime response isn't an issue due to a good response from a variety of members who are Village employees, shift workers, college students, young retirees or those who work in the Village and can leave their jobs.

Stay safe,

Syd Henry

Elmsford FD

Thanks for clarifying Syd. Sounds like a good program that many volunteer departments could benefit from; it certainly sounds like it could help to reduce the level of burn out. Stay safe!

Mussels Marinaro

[SECTMB 612]

Thanks for clarifying Syd. Sounds like a good program that many volunteer departments could benefit from; it certainly sounds like it could help to reduce the level of burn out. Stay safe!

Mussels Marinaro

We considered, but did not "officially" implement, a designated night shift driver for "nuissance" calls. By that I mean the AFA call that comes in at 2:00 am for Pace Univ. New Dorm. 10 out of 10 times its the same morons with their microwave popcorn. So rather than everyone getting up I would say, or another driver would say "if its Pace New Dorm, I'll take the call". If it was any other call, or location, even on campus, all bets were off. If it turned out to be anything more than the popcorn we could re-tone. But of the 10 out of 10 times, 8 out of 10 we wouldn't even clear the station before we were cancelled. That gets real tiresome in the middle of the night, in the middle of Winter.

The ambulance, on the other hand, has always had designated night shift duty crews.

I often wonder how many of our residents, commuters especially, understand that we are volunteer departments and that there are not crews standing by 24/7 waiting for them to dial 911? I have had people stop by and say they came by earlier in the week, but nobody was there even though the truck was. Well meaning, but clueless.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Most people moving into Westchester, especially from NYC do not understand the concept of a volunteer fire department. Most see the fire department line in their taxes and assume they have a paid fire department., assuming it is like FDNY