FDs Not Covering Their Calls

[Guest problEMS]

I'm not really sure what is going on mid county, but I have been hearing 60 Control toning out for a certain dept in their neck of the woods for a commercial alarm. At first they toned out for a full crew but then they toned for a driver, which means someone had to ask for that specifically. Then 10 mins later 60 control is attempting to raise this dept via Trunk with no answer and having to go mutual aid to cover a commercial alarm. Did the person at this dept really just leave without handling this call? If thats the case this dept should be ashamed with itself. Scary part is that this particular dept responds to our County Executives residence...Oos did I give it away ...Hey I didnt say their name!!!! Thank God there are still some RELIABLE fire departments out there to cover the deficient one's tracks.

Dont get mad...just pointing out an area that needs attention in this county.

[INIT915 1,119]

I'm not really sure what is going on mid county, but I have been hearing 60 Control toning out for a certain dept in their neck of the woods for a commercial alarm. At first they toned out for a full crew but then they toned for a driver, which means someone had to ask for that specifically. Then 10 mins later 60 control is attempting to raise this dept via Trunk with no answer and having to go mutual aid to cover a commercial alarm. Did the person at this dept really just leave without handling this call? If thats the case this dept should be ashamed with itself. Scary part is that this particular dept responds to our County Executives residence...Oos did I give it away ...Hey I didnt say their name!!!! Thank God there are still some RELIABLE fire departments out there to cover the deficient one's tracks.

Dont get mad...just pointing out an area that needs attention in this county.

Just like in the recent thread on EMS in the county, there is little debate a problem exists. Who will finally play the role of a leader and start to take some action?

Posts like this one, calling out some FD do nothing. Everyone is well aware of the problems. Some may have their heads in the sand, but they are aware.

Instead of calling out this agency, offer some suggestions or solutions. Without offering something productive, this thread offers nothing.

[M' Ave 1,466]

The first time a fire department fails to respond to an alarm, should be the last. They should be shut down as an individual agency and blended with those that surround them.

THERE!! That's your solution. Consolidation! That word has been kicked around on this site and in Westchester Co. for longer than a decade. When will someone who has the ability to institute change, actually do it? There are loads of dedicated guys in this county. Spread out the responsibility and you'll better serve the public.

Edited May 25, 2011 by M' Ave

[CTFF 65]

Sadly this is not a Westchester only issue. We see these problems in CT as well, I'm sure if you looked hard enough this issue is country wide. Yes consolidation is the answer, most don't want to hear it.

[16fire5 693]

Even with consolidation some of the stations are going to require career staffing at least 0700-1700 to address the issue.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

In Suffolk County LI, I know of a few Departments that have automatic mutual aid agreements in place during the day. They have in house standby crews. One agreement is with 2 departments the other has 3 departments doing it.

In Nassau there is one Dept. with 3 companies, 2 Engine companies and 1 Ladder company, 5 stations between the 3 companies. Each company has 2 rigs. Each compnay has relocated 1 rig to the biggest house that can fit them all. So during the week from 6-6pm ALL the daytime manpower responds to 1 house and gets the rigs out, without having scattered manpower at various stations.

There are some creative options out there, but it has to start with the Chief of the said Dept. to do something about it.

[FFPCogs 863]

.

There are some creative options out there, but it has to start with the Chief of the said Dept. to do something about it.

Yes there are indeed many creative options out there, but with all due respect it is not only the Chiefs that must embrace them. This type of cultural change also relies on the the rank and file to enact and carry out those changes, especially in VFDs where members often vote with their feet.

As most are well aware and as CTFF has pointed out, this dilema is not confined to Westchester by any means. And just as that is so, so to is it that those aforementioned creative option do exist for those that are willing to look for them. It has been my experience that when those who have let the problem develop try to "fix" it they often fall back on what they know and refuse to look outside their box. It really is rare for progressive thinking to just pop up in the established order, Stamford (on all "sides") being a case in point (as sixty plus pages of another thread amply attest to). It takes a determined and unrelenting drive by committed members to move things forward from within, but for those with the stomach and perseverance the struggle is usually well worth the effort. If you believe that change is necessary than you must fight for it, but in doing so you must also be prepared for the assault you will most assuredly endure from those who remain stuck in the status quo or those seeking to push their own agendas.

Cogs

Edited May 26, 2011 by FFPCogs

[rockl3 1]

geeeeezzzz fasny just got 4.5millon dollars for recuriting how about getting money for staffing these depts. this is just not a down state problem it is also an upstate issue when are these larger vollie depts with large populations and two income families realize no one has any time to do these types of things any more and maybe start to have apaid staff.

[M' Ave 1,466]

In Suffolk County LI, I know of a few Departments that have automatic mutual aid agreements in place during the day. They have in house standby crews. One agreement is with 2 departments the other has 3 departments doing it.

In Nassau there is one Dept. with 3 companies, 2 Engine companies and 1 Ladder company, 5 stations between the 3 companies. Each company has 2 rigs. Each compnay has relocated 1 rig to the biggest house that can fit them all. So during the week from 6-6pm ALL the daytime manpower responds to 1 house and gets the rigs out, without having scattered manpower at various stations.

There are some creative options out there, but it has to start with the Chief of the said Dept. to do something about it.

I'm not looking to insult the drive or ability of the individual firefighters, not one bit, but Nassau and Suffolk are far from good examples of how to run a fire service. Again, this isn't a knock at firefighting ability or intention, but at structure and management.

As for the examples you give, I have a question about each. In the Suffolk example, you state that several departments have mutual aid agreements in place during the day. Some of these agreements involve the dispatching of more than two departments to one agency's incident. This seems silly. So, we get more apparatus than needed rolling and from greater distances because one particular department can't provide manpower during weekdays? Why not merge, pair down the amount of equiptment, better spread it among firehouses and utilize the manpower you have to the fullest.

As for the Nassau example, if they move the apparatus to one firehouse during the day (the time when traffic is at it's peak) why do they need all of the firehouses? Why not save money, sell the buildings and run out of that central firehouse all of the time. If response times are adequate during the day, then they'd surely be adequate at night when traffic is lighter.

As for the latter example, sadly, I'm sure each company has it's own bar in it's firehouse and that's why they much maintain these sort-of sovereign companys. We need to get past these old school ideas of how the fire service should be.

Edited May 26, 2011 by M' Ave

[helicopper 1,050]

Even with consolidation some of the stations are going to require career staffing at least 0700-1700 to address the issue.

Not necessarily. In some cases there are multiple fire 'departments in the same town.' If these entities were to be consolidated into a single, larger department, they would have a larger pool of members and theoretically be able to muster a better response with volunteers. For example, there's a town with five individual, autonomous agencies and each has two qualified FF's available during the day. Completely unacceptable by any standard to respond with two guys. If the FD's were merged, there would be 10 members available without mutual aid. They could respond together or roster and be available in-house. It would cut down on some of the in-breeding in the emergency services and enable more FF to go on more calls. Win-win-win.

This wouldn't require closure of houses, it would require a change in managemnent, training, and procedures.

Yes there are indeed many creative options out there, but with all due respect it is not only the Chiefs that must embrace them. This type of cultural change also relies on the the rank and file to enact and carry out those changes, especially in VFDs where members often vote with their feet.

It takes a determined and unrelenting drive by committed members to move things forward from within, but for those with the stomach and perseverance the struggle is usually well worth the effort. If you believe that change is necessary than you must fight for it, but in doing so you must also be prepared for the assault you will most assuredly endure from those who remain stuck in the status quo or those seeking to push their own agendas.

Cogs

What's popular isn't always right and what's right isn't always popular. If members vote with their feet so be it. If it weren't for change you'd still be using horses and wearing rubber coats and boots but at some point they changed, right?

Chiefs and Commissioners must embrace these ideas and present them to the membership as the way for the future. If, because of egos or other agendas, they fail to do that it will cause problems. All agencies need to be led from the top. If members don't like consolidation and won't be a part of a new and improved system let them vote with their feet.

geeeeezzzz fasny just got 4.5millon dollars for recuriting how about getting money for staffing these depts. this is just not a down state problem it is also an upstate issue when are these larger vollie depts with large populations and two income families realize no one has any time to do these types of things any more and maybe start to have apaid staff.

You don't necessarily need (or want) career staff in all these departments. Yes, without a doubt, there are some departments that would benefit from career staffing but better management and deployment/scehduling of the thousands of volunteers we allegedly have would also work wonders.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Yes there are indeed many creative options out there, but with all due respect it is not only the Chiefs that must embrace them. This type of cultural change also relies on the the rank and file to enact and carry out those changes, especially in VFDs where members often vote with their feet.

Cogs

The fire service is not a democracy. It is a paramilitary structured organization. You volunteered to sign up, you are now employed by the department. If you don't like what your leader is doing because it entices change and pro-activeness, and feel that walking out is the best way to make your point; there is the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. Those who walk out, will no longer be able to hold the department back. The department ran long before you joined, and will continue to run and operate long after you, or anyone for that matter, leaves.

[Monty 35]

I'm not looking to insult the drive or ability of the individual firefighters, not one bit, but Nassau and Suffolk are far from good examples of how to run a fire service. Again, this isn't a knock at firefighting ability or intention, but at structure and management.

As for the examples you give, I have a question about each. In the Suffolk example, you state that several departments have mutual aid agreements in place during the day. Some of these agreements involve the dispatching of more than two departments to one agency's incident. This seems silly. So, we get more apparatus than needed rolling and from greater distances because one particular department can't provide manpower during weekdays? Why not merge, pair down the amount of equiptment, better spread it among firehouses and utilize the manpower you have to the fullest.

.....

going back to the Town of Colonie from one of the other threads - they have had DTMA (daytime mutual aid) for over 18 years - usually just an engine from an adjacent department, although sometimes a truck or rescue depending on the location. It's recognized that daytime coverage can be a challenge so you don't usually end up with an extra apparatus or two on the response, but you do have a bigger pool of members to pull from.

It works well, and you can certainly have a mutual aid Chief or Officer as IC without any friction.

Something like that could certainly happen here - and to a limited extent it does - look at Montrose, Buchanan and Verplank. Should it be expanded? Probably.

[grumpyff 1,159]

At what point is consolidation no longer and effective option? Using the Nassau/Sufffolk example, while it is great that they recognize daytime staffing is a problem and moved apparatus to a more 'central' location. But what if responding volunteer spend more time driving to the apparatus due to the increased distance, and it effects response times. I guess these departments allow these members to store their turnout gear in the personal vehicles or do they have multiple sets or do they secure them on the apparatus if they are able to respond that day.

[gamewell45 258]

I'm not really sure what is going on mid county, but I have been hearing 60 Control toning out for a certain dept in their neck of the woods for a commercial alarm. At first they toned out for a full crew but then they toned for a driver, which means someone had to ask for that specifically. Then 10 mins later 60 control is attempting to raise this dept via Trunk with no answer and having to go mutual aid to cover a commercial alarm. Did the person at this dept really just leave without handling this call? If thats the case this dept should be ashamed with itself. Scary part is that this particular dept responds to our County Executives residence...Oos did I give it away ...Hey I didnt say their name!!!! Thank God there are still some RELIABLE fire departments out there to cover the deficient one's tracks.

Dont get mad...just pointing out an area that needs attention in this county.

I'm not defending this "department", but don't you think it would make sense to hear the other side of the story from the "department" your describing before we all start castigating this particular fire department? Perhaps you could find someone from "that" department to provide us with some of the details of that alarm on the particular day? As i'm sure you'll admit, there are at least 2 sides to every story.

[CTFF 65]

At what point is consolidation no longer and effective option? Using the Nassau/Sufffolk example, while it is great that they recognize daytime staffing is a problem and moved apparatus to a more 'central' location. But what if responding volunteer spend more time driving to the apparatus due to the increased distance, and it effects response times. I guess these departments allow these members to store their turnout gear in the personal vehicles or do they have multiple sets or do they secure them on the apparatus if they are able to respond that day.

Consolidation as I meant it means to reduce the number of Fire Deptartments, not meaning to move equipment to one location.

[mreis95 77]

What about departments being held in quarters for almost every call until a chief gets there and makes a decision.

[eagle5473 7]

As the time commitment has virtualy killed off most of the true Volunteer EMS agencies, The VFD's will follow in time.

The answer will lie in a full county wide paid system supplemented by the few volunteers that are left.

And this is NOT a Westchester issue, its a National issue.

At least NY has a county form of Government, CT is a disaster when it comes to consolodaion and looking at county wide solutions.

aaron

[gamewell45 258]

As the time commitment has virtualy killed off most of the true Volunteer EMS agencies, The VFD's will follow in time.

The answer will lie in a full county wide paid system supplemented by the few volunteers that are left.

And this is NOT a Westchester issue, its a National issue.

At least NY has a county form of Government, CT is a disaster when it comes to consolodaion and looking at county wide solutions.

aaron

You most likely won't see that for years since there is no money for that at this time; particularly with political parties demonizing public sector workers salaries and benefits.

Should the economy improve to a point where the county can "sell" it to the public, then maybe. Eitherway, I wouldn't get your hopes up to soon.

[Billy 68]

Don't these issues also have to be solved on the governmental and community level as well? Any major changes in a community's emergency services would have to be approved and voted on by assorted Town councils and people in the fire districts. And there is where the problem truly is because, of course, no one wants to give up what they have and would rather maintain the status quo.....t's pretty much fear of the unknown.

[JBE 328]

I'm not defending this "department", but don't you think it would make sense to hear the other side of the story from the "department" your describing before we all start castigating this particular fire department? Perhaps you could find someone from "that" department to provide us with some of the details of that alarm on the particular day? As i'm sure you'll admit, there are at least 2 sides to every story.

There's no excuse for it. Period. Although I have been out of the volunteer fire services for more than 13 years, why not duty crews?? It may take a little finagling, but it just might be feasible to get at least an officer and minimum three firefighters to crew a rig. Get something other than a chiefs car on the road for an AFA, or anything else. Make the duty 0700X1700, or 0800X1800. At least by 1800, any department should have enough members in the district to cover something. Duty crews worked for the ambulance at night when I was in Lake Carmel. Granted, we didn't stay in the firehouse, but having people at quarters as a dedicated crew would be better than the alternative, toning out, and toning out some more.

It is a national problem. It will continue to be a problem in the suburbs until someone with a set steps up to the plate and says, "We cannot continue to operate like this, there has to be a better way!!! The people who live here deserve better than what they are getting for the money they shell out in taxes!!!" Someone who goes to every Chief and Coordinator and says, "Sorry, guys, but no more little fiefdoms, this is how it is going to be and you're going to do two things here, nothing, and like it." I'm not sold on fully paid departments/consolidation, but I'm also not sold on combination departments either. Simply because of how much more money are the taxpayers going to have to shell out??

Don't start me about PSAP's, PSAC's, because those are another Charlie Foxtrot.

Edited May 26, 2011 by JBE

[gamewell45 258]

There's no excuse for it. Period. Although I have been out of the volunteer fire services for more than 13 years, why not duty crews?? It may take a little finagling, but it just might be feasible to get at least an officer and minimum three firefighters to crew a rig. Get something other than a chiefs car on the road for an AFA, or anything else. Make the duty 0700X1700, or 0800X1800. At least by 1800, any department should have enough members in the district to cover something. Duty crews worked for the ambulance at night when I was in Lake Carmel. Granted, we didn't stay in the firehouse, but having people at quarters as a dedicated crew would be better than the alternative, toning out, and toning out some more.

It is a national problem. It will continue to be a problem in the suburbs until someone with a set steps up to the plate and says, "We cannot continue to operate like this, there has to be a better way!!! The people who live here deserve better than what they are getting for the money they shell out in taxes!!!" Someone who goes to every Chief and Coordinator and says, "Sorry, guys, but no more little fiefdoms, this is how it is going to be and you're going to do two things here, nothing, and like it." I'm not sold on fully paid departments/consolidation, but I'm also not sold on combination departments either. Simply because of how much more money are the taxpayers going to have to shell out??

Thats a great concept; but for some departments, its not feasible. We can't assume that all volunteers work 9-5pm jobs; many of us work various shifts and in some cases, the hours are not stabile at all. Requiring a volunteer that he/she has to stay at the fire station on standby for 8-12 hours isn't going to fly too well with many of them, especially if they have errands or other committments to get done on their day off. Its one thing to ask a volunteer to stay in town and with pager notification, respond to calls, but requiring them to stay on standby (I'm not referring to emergency standbys) is a bit much to expect compliance with.

I'm in agreement with you on combo departments; with them come the cost of manning them which places more of a tax burden on the taxpayers, particularly those in rural/bedroom communities where their is little or no commerical businesses located; however if it comes to the point where you can't provide fire protection or consolidation efforts fail, then its an option that will have to be seriously explored.

Edited May 27, 2011 by gamewell45

[JBE 328]

Don'tcha wish that someone could have come along, say 45 years ago, and pushed for at least combination departments, or consolidation of some form?? Probably would have settled a lot of the problems we see today.

[JJB531 652]

use someof their budget money or contract out to the nearest paid dept.

So, you really think that in addition to all of the current financial responsibilities these agencies have (equipment, training, insurance, fuel, etc.) that there is enough money available to support salaries, health insurance, pensions, etc.?

Contract out to the nearest paid department? Fire Departments across the country are laying guys off and closing firehouses and want firefighters to do more with less. Locally some paid departments have their own manpower issues... is "contracting out" and increasing the workload and geographic area of response really going to solve the problem?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The first time a fire department fails to respond to an alarm, should be the last. They should be shut down as an individual agency and blended with those that surround them.

THERE!! That's your solution. Consolidation! That word has been kicked around on this site and in Westchester Co. for longer than a decade. When will someone who has the ability to institute change, actually do it? There are loads of dedicated guys in this county. Spread out the responsibility and you'll better serve the public.

OK...so consolidation comes up. How do you figure out what salaries should be? Should some of us have to drop in salary as firefighters? Some may go up...but why should I be forced to take a pay cut? What do you do about compensation for CFR's? EMT's? and those of us who are Paramedics? What about all the chiefs? How do you consolidate some with DC titles to Captain if the system doesn't have as many positions as there are those with that title? There are a lot of things that would have to be figured out...and I'm all for it...in fact bring on EMS into it as well as all dual roll providers.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

And to point out...this thread was started just based on a dept. or departments who aren't getting out. What about those that are getting "out" but with next to no...or realistically no additional personnel on scene?

[16fire5 693]

Just to remind those talking about a county department it is still not permitted by state law. So that might be the first thing you need to change. The only legal way to do it right now is to make a really large fire district.

[Boss159 7]

I am for conslodation for man power issues not like the "in debt to its ears" department pushing merging in my area with the departments whos budgets are balanced and in the black. However this is where I see the VFD's in NY in the next ten years in my area at least, is paid staff, either contracted aka Wackenhut ect or paid staff of a county list, the type of people in my area 'expects' to have FD as soon as they dial 911 and can't understand the concept of volunteering, the demagraphics have changed big time over the last 10-15 years, and the ones who do volunteer don't have the same sense of pride or work ethic that I have or others had in the past, It's slowly dying.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Just to remind those talking about a county department it is still not permitted by state law. So that might be the first thing you need to change. The only legal way to do it right now is to make a really large fire district.

Just out of curiosity, how would a "county department" (with the exceptions of the large cities) be any different then a fire district that basically encompasses the entire county?

[M' Ave 1,466]

OK...so consolidation comes up. How do you figure out what salaries should be? Should some of us have to drop in salary as firefighters? Some may go up...but why should I be forced to take a pay cut? What do you do about compensation for CFR's? EMT's? and those of us who are Paramedics? What about all the chiefs? How do you consolidate some with DC titles to Captain if the system doesn't have as many positions as there are those with that title? There are a lot of things that would have to be figured out...and I'm all for it...in fact bring on EMS into it as well as all dual roll providers.

While some combo and career departments could use merging, I think the easiest area to start is in the volunteer sector. You do not have collective bargaining agreements to worry about. Of course there are concerns. There are logistics to be worked out in each scenario, along with some regard for pride and history. As for the career side of things, that get sticky. You might have to deal with paying people more, or creating positions that will disappear with attrition. You can't ask people to take any sort of pay-cut, but if they hold a position that will not fit with a new command structure, then they receive a title in the new system that reflects the responsibility they had prior. Salaries will have to even in time.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just out of curiosity, how would a "county department" (with the exceptions of the large cities) be any different then a fire district that basically encompasses the entire county?

A county dept (if it was legal to do) would answer to the county exec and would have to compete with other county depts for funding.

A countywide fire district would answer to a board of fire commissioners, whose only responsabilities are the FD.