Three Seattle police officers suspended over use of 'gutter language'

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Three Seattle police officers suspended over use of 'gutter language'

In another sign that he expects professional behavior, Seattle Police Chief John Diaz has imposed harsh suspensions on three East Precinct officers over their use of "gutter language" during a traffic stop of two suspected gang members last year, according to records disclosed Tuesday.

If that happens here, I am gonna need a second job! Lol

[Just a guy 493]

Is this chief kidding with this nonsense ? These are pice of s*** MS-13 gang members who were threatening to assault the officers, etc... they deserved a lot more than a few f*** you's. This is another example of political correctness gone awry. Chief Bratton said a few weeks ago that he firmly believes that the number of officer related deaths are up this year because cops are weary about people with cameras and are holding back during their encounters with the public and are therefore giving up the upper hand. In this case you have cops who did the right thing and refused to give up the upper hand and now they get called to the carpet for it. What a joke.

This is another example of a boss forgetting where he came from

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I firmly believe in using any language neccesary to get the job done. I think mentally when a "commoner" hears an LEO say what's on his/her mind, they may think to him/herself, this COP means business. I'll take a couple day rip if it keeps me and my collegue's alive!

[The Axe 8]

When "sir can you please step out of the vehicle" doesn't work and you get an answer like "what the F**k are you pulling me over for? What's the officer suppose to so? exactly what the 3 Seattle officers did

[10512 214]

It is sad when cops have to start worrying about hurting the feelings of gangbangers.

I hope these gangbangers were not to traumatized by what they heard and I hope they recover completely and are able to go back to their productive lives as valuable members of their community.

[abaduck 123]

I firmly believe in using any language neccesary to get the job done. I think mentally when a "commoner" hears an LEO say what's on his/her mind, they may think to him/herself, this COP means business. I'll take a couple day rip if it keeps me and my collegue's alive!

There are two sides to every approach. When a cop, who is supposed to protect and serve and treat respectful citizens politely, instead lets loose with a bunch of profanity, they're effectively saying 'I know I shouldn't talk to you like this but guess what, I don't care, I don't give an *expletive* about PR-friendly polices, they don't apply to ME or YOU and I'm going to drop f-bombs until you realise that, and I want your submission'; it's a form of intimidation. That's the expanded version of your 'means business'.

I'm not a cop, I don't have your job, I don't deal with what you have to deal with on the streets, I accept that, Sometimes that language might be justified to get the job done, I agree. Other times it isn't. The situation posted in this thread sounds dumb, I agree. Here's another example to counterbalance, and this is the only reason I'm posting to this thread. Have you heard of Mark Fiorino, and what happened to him when he exercised his legal right to open carry in Philly? He was walking down the street, he was nothing but law-abiding, polite and respectful, and he got a lot of aggression and f-bombs in response:

I found this rather disturbing.

Mike

[ex-commish 490]

At the very least a verbal counseling would of been enough. Suspension is too harsh. These were gang members under the supervision of the department of correction which means they are criminals. What next...suspended for looking at someone the wrong way??? Give me a break!!!

[lad12derff 283]

There are two sides to every approach. When a cop, who is supposed to protect and serve and treat respectful citizens politely, instead lets loose with a bunch of profanity, they're effectively saying 'I know I shouldn't talk to you like this but guess what, I don't care, I don't give an *expletive* about PR-friendly polices, they don't apply to ME or YOU and I'm going to drop f-bombs until you realise that, and I want your submission'; it's a form of intimidation. That's the expanded version of your 'means business'.

I'm not a cop, I don't have your job, I don't deal with what you have to deal with on the streets, I accept that, Sometimes that language might be justified to get the job done, I agree. Other times it isn't. The situation posted in this thread sounds dumb, I agree. Here's another example to counterbalance, and this is the only reason I'm posting to this thread. Have you heard of Mark Fiorino, and what happened to him when he exercised his legal right to open carry in Philly? He was walking down the street, he was nothing but law-abiding, polite and respectful, and he got a lot of aggression and f-bombs in response:

I found this rather disturbing.

Mike

I have to agree with you. I found this whole thing disturbing myself. This knuckle head has a full carry permit in PA and decides to walk into the ghetto with his weapon on his hip like John Wayne and not expect trouble. Then he decides that he is going to set up the PPD with his BS act on the street, and his BS acting like a lawyer, and his BS acting like a person who has no idea what it is like to be a ghetto cop. Just what these guys need is another TURD from the BURBS coming into town to start trouble. As though they don't have enough trouble with the people who live there. All he had to do was comply with the officers request and things would have worked themselves out.So as I said I found this very disturbing also.

Sorry Philly for the ghetto reference. You are a great place to visit.

[helicopper 1,050]

There are two sides to every approach. When a cop, who is supposed to protect and serve and treat respectful citizens politely, instead lets loose with a bunch of profanity, they're effectively saying 'I know I shouldn't talk to you like this but guess what, I don't care, I don't give an *expletive* about PR-friendly polices, they don't apply to ME or YOU and I'm going to drop f-bombs until you realise that, and I want your submission'; it's a form of intimidation. That's the expanded version of your 'means business'.

I'm not a cop, I don't have your job, I don't deal with what you have to deal with on the streets, I accept that, Sometimes that language might be justified to get the job done, I agree. Other times it isn't. The situation posted in this thread sounds dumb, I agree. Here's another example to counterbalance, and this is the only reason I'm posting to this thread. Have you heard of Mark Fiorino, and what happened to him when he exercised his legal right to open carry in Philly? He was walking down the street, he was nothing but law-abiding, polite and respectful, and he got a lot of aggression and f-bombs in response:

I found this rather disturbing.

Mike

The Sgt. alone with an armed subject showed remarkable restraint and was calm and professional. What you heard was an eventual escalation in the use of force and that force included verbal orders that were not being complied with. I'm not a big fan of the use of expletives but there are times when it is appropriate and the only thing that is understood.

Mark Fiorino was stupid and failed to comply with the lawful instructions of a uniformed Sgt. in the PPD. He was not law-abiding and his refusal to follow the orders of a police officer who was concerned for his safety and the safety of others is neither polite or respectful.

As Axe said, sometimes the high road doesn't work and you have to speak in a manner that is understood by the subject to whom you are speaking. A suspension for that does seem excessive unless there is more to the story than we know about. Sounds like progressive discipline doesn't exist in Seattle.

[abaduck 123]

I have to agree with you. I found this whole thing disturbing myself. This knuckle head has a full carry permit in PA and decides to walk into the ghetto with his weapon on his hip like John Wayne and not expect trouble. Then he decides that he is going to set up the PPD with his BS act on the street, and his BS acting like a lawyer, and his BS acting like a person who has no idea what it is like to be a ghetto cop. Just what these guys need is another TURD from the BURBS coming into town to start trouble. As though they don't have enough trouble with the people who live there. All he had to do was comply with the officers request and things would have worked themselves out.So as I said I found this very disturbing also.

Sorry Philly for the ghetto reference. You are a great place to visit.

There's a backstory to this you may not be aware of; the guy had been hassled on previous occasions, for open carry. On one occasion his pistol was confiscated for five months for no good reason I'm aware of. He decided to record any future encounters with cops, and frankly I don't blame him.

Either open carry is legal, or it isn't. If it's legal, and cops think it shouldn't be, the way to go is to lobby to change the law, not invent restrictions that don't exist, and hassle people who open carry until it becomes a purely theoretical 'right' that no-one actually dares exercise anymore.

Mike.

Edited May 26, 2011 by abaduck

[abaduck 123]

The Sgt. alone with an armed subject showed remarkable restraint and was calm and professional. What you heard was an eventual escalation in the use of force and that force included verbal orders that were not being complied with. I'm not a big fan of the use of expletives but there are times when it is appropriate and the only thing that is understood.

Mark Fiorino was stupid and failed to comply with the lawful instructions of a uniformed Sgt. in the PPD. He was not law-abiding and his refusal to follow the orders of a police officer who was concerned for his safety and the safety of others is neither polite or respectful.

Mr. Fiorino was going about his lawful business, carrying openly, when the Sgt. initiated an encounter with him. The open carry was clearly the only issue; he wasn't suspected of any crime. Mr. Fiorino declared at the very outset that he was lawfully carrying and offered to show his permit. This was refused and he was ordered to kneel in the dirt. Things went downhill from there.

As I said to lad12derff, if the 'price' you pay for exercising your right to open carry is to be required to kneel in the dirt on a semi-regular basis, then the right becomes entirely theoretical; and in my view the legality of those orders becomes dubious to say the least.

Posts I've read in other fora, describing encounters in other states, or even other parts of PA, where open carry is legal, describe encounters that are polite, of the 'keep your hands where I can see them while I check your permit' variety, and in a couple of minutes it's 'have a nice day'. If the Philly Sgt. had conducted himself in the same manner we wouldn't be having this conversation.

*edit* I'll add a thought; I appreciate that if the Philly Sgt. had conducted himself in the 'polite' manner with the wrong guy, he might be dead. It's difficult. How to set the balance right? Dead cops are a bad thing. Hassling legal gun owner so much they give up is a bad thing; it makes an a** of the open carry law. What to do? I DO see both sides. But - correct me if I'm wrong - very few bad guys open carry. And it was obvious as soon as this guy opened his mouth that he was intelligent and articulate. The guys in Seattle sounded like, and were, gang members. This guy didn't. He sounded like a geek. He sounded a bit of a smartass, but that ain't a crime.

Mike

Edited May 26, 2011 by abaduck

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Let me correct one thing, I don't use foul language with everyone. I do when I feel it is necessary!

All is that kid had to do is comply with the Sgt. I don't care if he has a full carry or not, do what the PO's say & you may be on your way! Sounds like this guy is looking to cash in on a lawsuit!

[FFLieu 70]

When I was at the academy, we were told that when interacting with the public, first you ask them to do something. If that doesn't work, then you tell them. If that doesn't work, then you make them. If it comes down to making someone do something, and you're dealing with a gang like MS-13, if you drop a couple of F-bombs, then so be it. The Chief in this case obviously hasn't been on the street in quite some time.

And I whole heartedly agree with what Chief Bratton's estimation of why officer-related deaths are up this year. The sad fact of the matter is that everyone has a mobile camera and most of which offer the capability of instant upload of data to the Internet, namely Youtube. Cops are holding back, and in places like New York, where it seems as if everytime something in the way of a use of force occurs, the cop is the perp and the perp is the victim, it leads to very disasterous consequences.

[grumpyff 1,159]

The only thing I consider disturbing in this recording was the mention of the sergeant considering the use of a Taser. Deadly force(or threat of) is always met with Deadly force options(firearms). Just because the State of Pennsylvania allows open carry does not mean the city of Philadelphia does. Here is a link to the law that discusses open carry in Philadelphia: http://www.pafoa.org...arms/open-carry For an example closer to home, you may have a full carry permit issued by Westchester County, however it does not entitle you to carry your licensed firearm into NYC, you must get an additional permit (which is almost impossible) from the NYPD. Cities often have greater restrictions do to higher crime rates with firearms, and population density. The sergeant started out respectful, and this idiot decided to be a s$%t house lawyer and not comply with the sergeant's directions. The use of language escalated as the defendant continued to refuse to comply with lawful orders. The uniformed police officer is always in control, and gives the orders, not the defendant. If the order is "get on your knees", the get on on your knees.

Respect is a two way street, if you refuse to comply or treat me like crap, then my attitude and responses will change to meet the situation. Things like sir and please will get replaced with things like a$^%$hole and now.

Edited May 26, 2011 by grumpyff

[ny10570 745]

Has anyone forgotten that this is PHILADELPHIA. The same city where 5 officers were shot and killed in separate incidents only 3 years ago. A city with a still increasing crime rate and shrinking police force. Had jackass complied, gotten on his knees allowed the officer to disarm him, and then still been arrested and harassed he'd have a point. He never gave the officer a chance to de-escalate things. Who gives a crap what you say you have, until I can prove it I'm wouldn't buy it either. Look at the guy's youtube channel. He's a poop stirrer. Yes, he has the right to open carry, but everything in life has consequences. You need to be sensitive to the environment around you with any actions you undertake. What about the idiot who tried showing up to a presidential rally with his assault rifle?? I don't care how much you're allowed to have it, that wasn't the appropriate place for it.

[Just a guy 493]

Mr. Fiorino was going about his lawful business, carrying openly, when the Sgt. initiated an encounter with him. The open carry was clearly the only issue; he wasn't suspected of any crime. Mr. Fiorino declared at the very outset that he was lawfully carrying and offered to show his permit. This was refused and he was ordered to kneel in the dirt. Things went downhill from there.

As I said to lad12derff, if the 'price' you pay for exercising your right to open carry is to be required to kneel in the dirt on a semi-regular basis, then the right becomes entirely theoretical; and in my view the legality of those orders becomes dubious to say the least.

Posts I've read in other fora, describing encounters in other states, or even other parts of PA, where open carry is legal, describe encounters that are polite, of the 'keep your hands where I can see them while I check your permit' variety, and in a couple of minutes it's 'have a nice day'. If the Philly Sgt. had conducted himself in the same manner we wouldn't be having this conversation.

*edit* I'll add a thought; I appreciate that if the Philly Sgt. had conducted himself in the 'polite' manner with the wrong guy, he might be dead. It's difficult. How to set the balance right? Dead cops are a bad thing. Hassling legal gun owner so much they give up is a bad thing; it makes an a** of the open carry law. What to do? I DO see both sides. But - correct me if I'm wrong - very few bad guys open carry. And it was obvious as soon as this guy opened his mouth that he was intelligent and articulate. The guys in Seattle sounded like, and were, gang members. This guy didn't. He sounded like a geek. He sounded a bit of a smartass, but that ain't a crime.

Mike

You say this guy fiorino sounded like a geek , Is a geek any less capable of killing a cop ?

You say that other examples of people being stopped for open carry in other parts of PA have been "polite"... did you ever think that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between getting stopped in northwest pebnnsylvania where it is very common to carry a weapon legally as opposed to being stopped in the ghettto of philly where it is very common for people to carry a wepon illegally.

Unless you have encountered an armed suspect on the street then you can't say how you would feel or how another cop should feel or act. In my 13 years on the job I have been forced to draw my weapon and disarm many people on the street, once even chasing a male with a handgun while I was off duty... and at no time was I nice about it and if people take issue with that I could honestly care less because at the end of the day I got the job done and I and my partners went home at the end of the tour.

You point out that he told the sergeant that he had a permit and was carrying legally... you do realize that people lie to us pretty often right ? I stopped a male in downtown yonkers one night that had a handgun in his waistband who told me the gun was legal in south carolina and after disarming him at gunpoint and informing him that his weapon was not legal in NY, it turned out that he lied to me and that his weapon was not even registered in S.C. (not that I evan began to believe him anyway).

The bottom line is that police work is not always pretty, it's not always like the movies or like it is on cops, people fight, people run, people resist arrest and people question EVERYTHING WE DO.

You took this small clip and ran with the whole " some cops don't respect the courtesy campaigns " or whatever you said and that is just complete nonsense.

[SOUSGT 357]

There are two sides to every approach. When a cop, who is supposed to protect and serve and treat respectful citizens politely, instead lets loose with a bunch of profanity, they're effectively saying 'I know I shouldn't talk to you like this but guess what, I don't care, I don't give an *expletive* about PR-friendly polices, they don't apply to ME or YOU and I'm going to drop f-bombs until you realise that, and I want your submission'; it's a form of intimidation. That's the expanded version of your 'means business'.

I'm not a cop, I don't have your job, I don't deal with what you have to deal with on the streets, I accept that, Sometimes that language might be justified to get the job done, I agree. Other times it isn't. The situation posted in this thread sounds dumb, I agree. Here's another example to counterbalance, and this is the only reason I'm posting to this thread. Have you heard of Mark Fiorino, and what happened to him when he exercised his legal right to open carry in Philly? He was walking down the street, he was nothing but law-abiding, polite and respectful, and he got a lot of aggression and f-bombs in response:

I found this rather disturbing.

Mike

There are several things "disturbing" about this recording:

1) It is a recording and not a video. We have been told that the guy was just walking down the street. We have no way of knowing any of his actions prior to the officer spotting him.

2) We also do not have any indication were the officer was other than in close proximity to the subject. Did the officer have cover or was it a naked confrontation? If the officer is caught in the open with no cover, then unless the guy is in uniform, he’s going to the ground.

3) Regardless if the guy has a permit or not if the officer gives instructions for his safety or that of others, follow his instructions Period!

4) The subject was recording this incident. He was able to quote rules. It seemed like he was looking for a confrontation.

5) The officer involved identified himself a sergeant. A sergeant in a City police department is not a kid out of rookie school. His instructions were clear, concise and he maintained control. There was no panic in his voice.

The subject tried to manipulate the confrontation to seem like he was a victim being picked on by the police. As we cannot see what is going on, it’s hard to know what’s actually occurring. I don’t know the area or the people involved. I don’t know how much the above contributed to the instructions that were given. But the fact is, if a police officer with a gun pointed at you gives you a command, obey it, period, end of story. As you can see by my profile, I am a retired police officer. I worked in a city and was involved in a shooting and several almost shootings. On one occasion, almost shot a detective in my own department who jumped a gun call. I responded to a man with a gun call and was the first uniform on the scene. I saw a guy standing over a man on the side walk with a shotgun in his hand. I instructed him to drop the gun several times and he failed to follow my directions. As he turned toward me with the gun still in his hand, I started to squeeze the trigger and continued to yell for him to drop the gun. At the last second, I saw a portable radio in the other hand and it gave me enough to pause. He then yelled he was a cop. A second later he later he would have been dead and I would have had to live with the fact that killed a good guy. Later, asked him why he did not do as I commanded. He told me that I should have recognized him and known he was a police officer. He had sun glasses on and just gotten his hair cut and I didn’t recognize him. It happened a long time ago and I still have bad memories about it.

[210 91]

Has anyone forgotten that this is PHILADELPHIA. The same city where 5 officers were shot and killed in separate incidents only 3 years ago. A city with a still increasing crime rate and shrinking police force. Had jackass complied, gotten on his knees allowed the officer to disarm him, and then still been arrested and harassed he'd have a point. He never gave the officer a chance to de-escalate things. Who gives a crap what you say you have, until I can prove it I'm wouldn't buy it either. Look at the guy's youtube channel. He's a poop stirrer. Yes, he has the right to open carry, but everything in life has consequences. You need to be sensitive to the environment around you with any actions you undertake. What about the idiot who tried showing up to a presidential rally with his assault rifle?? I don't care how much you're allowed to have it, that wasn't the appropriate place for it.

That pretty much sums it up. Good post.

[JBE 328]

I didn't get to read what Ex-commissioner Bratton had to say, but the man has my respect. He did a tremendous job here in NYC. Now as far as these guys getting whacked for pay. I just got hit for ten days pay for dropping an F bomb to a Staff Chief, not some skell out on the street. I have to say the punishment doled out to these cops is F$%^ING BULL$#@%!!!! Tongue planted firmly in cheek here, folks.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I didn't get to read what Ex-commissioner Bratton had to say, but the man has my respect. He did a tremendous job here in NYC. Now as far as these guys getting whacked for pay. I just got hit for ten days pay for dropping an F bomb to a Staff Chief, not some skell out on the street. I have to say the punishment doled out to these cops is F$%^ING BULL$#@%!!!! Tongue planted firmly in cheek here, folks.

You just dropped the "bomb" or called the boss the "f bomb"? Either way He/she sounds like a dick. I would be working for free if this were the case!

[abaduck 123]

Ok, enough guys I respect seem to think the Philly guy was out of line, so I'll be man enough to go with that, wind my neck in and apologise.

Mike