Disability Pension and Active Interior FF - Fraud?

[The Axe 8]

How can someone be retired collecting a disability pension and still be a full duty interior firefighter?

Is this illegal?

[BFD1054 1,552]

Is this illegal?

Axe...im no lawyer or pension expert, however i would have to say that it is illegal. I would assume that this would be a form of fraud, no?

I would also assume you know of a certain case? If this is so, i am sure that this has gone "under the radar" for one reason or another.

My oppinion is that this would be total fraud and is totally unacceptable.

my 2 cents

[ja3kfd 34]

Can be for other than physical disability, NYS allows after 10 years of service disability for other than work related injury.

[helicopper 1,050]

Without more information it is difficult to say. There was recently a case profiled in the media where a career FF was retired due to a disability but his local VFD allowed him to continue operating as an interior FF and if I remember correctly the State doctors retired him and the VFD doctor said he could stlil serve.

So, are there cases of disability fraud? Absolutely. Just like there are cases of welfare fraud, insurance fraud, credit card fraud, etc.

Not everyone who is retired with a disability is proscribed from serving as a volunteer. It depends on the disability, retirement rules, pension program, etc.

[bad box 371]

Without more information it is difficult to say. There was recently a case profiled in the media where a career FF was retired due to a disability but his local VFD allowed him to continue operating as an interior FF and if I remember correctly the State doctors retired him and the VFD doctor said he could stlil serve.

So, are there cases of disability fraud? Absolutely. Just like there are cases of welfare fraud, insurance fraud, credit card fraud, etc.

Not everyone who is retired with a disability is proscribed from serving as a volunteer. It depends on the disability, retirement rules, pension program, etc.

If this is the same case that I'm thinking of, the person in question didn't want to retire and was forced out of the job by the department doctors.

[helicopper 1,050]

If this is the same case that I'm thinking of, the person in question didn't want to retire and was forced out of the job by the department doctors.

That's probably the same case I saw being reported.

[Guest Woodscutter]

I think it's unfair how they can be deemed disabled by paid department doctors but volunteer department doctors deem him able to serve. Sounds like someone is getting paid off. Where I work in cutting trees a guy is deemed not suitable to work because he's waiting for a née heart but yet he is a volunteer chief.

[The Axe 8]

If the person in question is unable to perform their duties physically and is retired due to a disability by a Doctor and is cleared by another Doctor to be a volunteer firefighter is there fraud committed? Was there false information provided? Is the Chief of the volunteer fire department aware of the situation?

[Guest Woodscutter]

Yes and to be totally honest who wants to be in a burning building and the guy you count on is on disability from the state and he drops because of a heart attack. Think about it... the paid department didn't want that liability of his injury because of this example but he is good enough for a volunteer department? There is something totally wrong with that.

[rockl3 1]

the vollies will take anyone they can get their hands on esp. if they have exper.

[ny10570 745]

the vollies will take anyone they can get their hands on esp. if they have exper.

Exactly. Myself and other volunteers from different departments have returned from substantial injuries just on our word that we're ready to go.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think it's unfair how they can be deemed disabled by paid department doctors but volunteer department doctors deem him able to serve. Sounds like someone is getting paid off. Where I work in cutting trees a guy is deemed not suitable to work because he's waiting for a née heart but yet he is a volunteer chief.

It isn't paid department doctors, it is NYS doctors that render decisions on disability pensions. I've heard of department doctors ordering a person back to work and the State panel retiring that same person. The reverse is also true so I don't think it is pay-offs. I don't think most of us even know who the state doctors are.

As for disparate standards between the career and volunteer fire services, that is a major issue and one of the topics that generates the most controversy. The fact that disparate standards are allowed to exist is one of the problems in the fire service.

[capt36 9]

A few years ago a member of FDNY who went out on a disabilty made a rescue in his volunteer dept. on Long Island. Made the news. He was arrested for fraud, had to make restitution and lost his pension. Was it worth it>

[The Axe 8]

Woodscutter may be right - http://www.firehouse.com/news/news/fbi-probes-alleged-fdny-pension-fraud

[INIT915 1,119]

Woodscutter may be right - http://www.firehouse.com/news/news/fbi-probes-alleged-fdny-pension-fraud

That article was written in 1994. What was the outcome? Was the complaint founded or not?

Edit, I mean 2004.

Edited May 21, 2011 by INIT915

[The Axe 8]

Don't know the outcome but here it is 2011 and there is still disability pension fraud.

Retired FDNY firefighters collecting a disability pension and still serving full active duty

in a volunteer fire department. And it's not just FDNY but individuals retired on a disability

pension no matter what line of work they were in being full duty volunteer firefighters.

Again I ask the question is this legal? I can't see how it can be but it's happening.

[INIT915 1,119]

Don't know the outcome but here it is 2011 and there is still disability pension fraud.

Retired FDNY firefighters collecting a disability pension and still serving full active duty

in a volunteer fire department. And it's not just FDNY but individuals retired on a disability

pension no matter what line of work they were in being full duty volunteer firefighters.

Again I ask the question is this legal? I can't see how it can be but it's happening.

If we've learned nothing else, it is that the law and common sense are, on occasion, mutually exclusive.

[wraftery 1,275]

History:

A few years ago a member of FDNY who went out on a disabilty made a rescue in his volunteer dept. on Long Island. Made the news. He was arrested for fraud, had to make restitution and lost his pension. Was it worth it>

Bad Karma:

A few years ago a member of FDNY who went out on a disabilty made a hell of a search for a possible victim in his volunteer dept. on Long Island. Turns out there was no victim. Made the news. He was arrested for fraud, had to make restitution and lost his pension.

Good Karma:

A few years ago a member of FDNY who went out on a disabilty made a rescue in his volunteer dept. on Long Island. Made the news. He was arrested for fraud, would have had to make restitution and lose his pension. But the victim was a judge who recused himself from hearing the case. However the judge that actually heard the case was the victims golf partner. The case was dismissed.

[FireMedic049 597]

Yes and to be totally honest who wants to be in a burning building and the guy you count on is on disability from the state and he drops because of a heart attack.

Since we're being "totally honest", who wants to be counting on a fellow FF who's not on disability and he/she drops because of a heart attack? You're kind of mixing issues here. Being on disability doesn't specifically increase the risk of heart attack.

Think about it... the paid department didn't want that liability of his injury because of this example but he is good enough for a volunteer department? There is something totally wrong with that.

As already stated, the threshold for many volunteer departments is pretty low.

[FireMedic049 597]

Don't know the outcome but here it is 2011 and there is still disability pension fraud.

Retired FDNY firefighters collecting a disability pension and still serving full active duty

in a volunteer fire department. And it's not just FDNY but individuals retired on a disability

pension no matter what line of work they were in being full duty volunteer firefighters.

Again I ask the question is this legal? I can't see how it can be but it's happening.

I'm by no means an expert on the matter, but.............

Being "disabled" for one job doesn't necessarily mean that you are "disabled" for another job. For example, Bill works in construction and is seriously injured on the job. We'll say a beam fell on his leg and damaged it enough that it had to be amputated (below the knee). Bill's employer "retires" him on a disability pension. Bill gets himself one of those prosthetic legs and after months of rehab is getting around pretty good. Is Bill too "disabled" to continue to serve in his VFD at full-duty?

I'm going with "no" because I served with a person several years ago who had a below knee amputation and he was able to perform the tasks necessary to be an interior firefighter and earned his FF1 certification despite his "disability".

I know another guy who lost an eye (non-job related), but continues to serve as a full-duty volunteer firefighter.

Now, I would think that legally speaking, being labeled "disabled" and placed on pension for a specific occupation, like firefighting, would preclude you from performing the same job for another "employer" (i.e. VFD).

[Bnechis 3,961]

Again I ask the question is this legal? I can't see how it can be but it's happening.

Yes it maybe legal. Is it ethical, ir it right........

My understand of the pension is you ae determined to be disabled by the state doctors on the day you are disabled. After that if you recovered its to late to change your status in the pension. Now part of the disability pay comes form the employeer and they do have some say if you are "working" a new job and can and have revoked the municipalities portion of the disability payment.

[The Axe 8]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/city_disables_pension_oGyzQdglQcV2el6MyOv4YN

City 'disables' pension

KOs 'ill' FDNY boxer

[LTNRFD 266]

Yes it maybe legal. Is it ethical, ir it right........

My understand of the pension is you ae determined to be disabled by the state doctors on the day you are disabled. After that if you recovered its to late to change your status in the pension. Now part of the disability pay comes form the employeer and they do have some say if you are "working" a new job and can and have revoked the municipalities portion of the disability payment.

If you are in need of continued medical care due to a career ending injury, your employer (Fire Dept/Municipality) can just stop paying if they feel like it. All they have to do is pay a doctor to write a report saying you are cured and then they stop paying for your care. This is regardless of what your treating doctor says.

[INIT915 1,119]

If you are in need of continued medical care due to a career ending injury, your employer (Fire Dept/Municipality) can just stop paying if they feel like it. All they have to do is pay a doctor to write a report saying you are cured and then they stop paying for your care. This is regardless of what your treating doctor says.

It doesn't help when some of these retirees provide the municipality with ammunition, specifically, living lives that might suggest they are not that disabled.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sorry but there isn't very many functions as or more rigorous then structural firefighting. If you can do that then you can work and earn your money not mine.

[LTNRFD 266]

It doesn't help when some of these retirees provide the municipality with ammunition, specifically, living lives that might suggest they are not that disabled.

Just because you are disabled from the performance of firefighting duties, doesn't mean that you can't try to have normal quality of life.

[Guest Woodscutter]

Fire medic read all my posts before you call me out on them... There is a big difference from a disability that you can rehabilitate such as an amputated leg but when your chief is waiting for a transplanted heart and he's disabled cause of that you are gonna count on him? Cause I know sure as he'll that I won't trust him with my back. Keep in mind adrenaline makes the heart pump more blood through your body so if his heart can't handle walking dont think it will handle a fire

[NWFDMedic 58]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small community like mine. There are several injuries or work related illnesses that might cause a doctor to say that a person cannot meet the demands of the FDNY job but could still do it in a department that does 150 calls per year, only a couple of which are actually fire-related. An FDNY firefighter might be expected to routinely climb 20 flights of stairs in full gear and be able to perform his full functions whereas my department may only expect a firefighter to be able to climb 3 flights of stairs and do the job. A small department may only require you to be able to perform firefighting functions for an hour at a clip while FDNY might require you to be on your feet for 12 hours running calls.

Many people have complained both on here and even on the state level about "different qualifications" and that firefighter is a single job description. Different communities have different needs and thus different requirements for their firefighters. I don't claim for a second that I could go down to FDNY and do the job but I'm pretty damn sure I can do it in my community. Saying that it's only "one job" is like requiring any car mechanic to have the ability of a NASCAR pit crew member.

[INIT915 1,119]

Just because you are disabled from the performance of firefighting duties, doesn't mean that you can't try to have normal quality of life.

Yes, a "normal" quality of life. Some of these stories making the news suggest something more then a normal quality of life.

Whether you like it or not, reforming this system would actually benefit those in emergency services or legitimately need it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small community like mine. There are several injuries or work related illnesses that might cause a doctor to say that a person cannot meet the demands of the FDNY job but could still do it in a department that does 150 calls per year, only a couple of which are actually fire-related.

But I thought the main argument from the volunteer fire service has been "we do the same job for free"?

Since most are not "fire-related" why send firefighters then?

An FDNY firefighter might be expected to routinely climb 20 flights of stairs in full gear and be able to perform his full functions whereas my department may only expect a firefighter to be able to climb 3 flights of stairs and do the job. A small department may only require you to be able to perform firefighting functions for an hour at a clip while FDNY might require you to be on your feet for 12 hours running calls.

Does FDNY require all of its firefighters to meet the same standard? YES. Are some working in lower Manhattan or other built up areas where they run 1,000 of calls and may have to climb, but others are working on city Island doing 150 calls per year and nothing bigger than 2 stories (well maybe 3). But they maintain the same requirements.

FDNY rotates and rehabs its members more than any other department because it is the right thing to do and because they can. Most small departments do not have the luxury to call for another 50-100 firefighters at a time.

Also FDNY puts more firefighters on a hoseline than many depts can muster for a call. So the physical needs in a small dept may be greater (assuming the member actually is doing the job and is not just a lawn ornament).

Many people have complained both on here and even on the state level about "different qualifications" and that firefighter is a single job description. Different communities have different needs and thus different requirements for their firefighters. I don't claim for a second that I could go down to FDNY and do the job but I'm pretty damn sure I can do it in my community. Saying that it's only "one job" is like requiring any car mechanic to have the ability of a NASCAR pit crew member.

While there maybe different community needs, a house fire is a house fire and that 60 hours vs. 600 hours can not be considered a small difference, particularly in combo depts with members responding to the same call on the same rig.