Mayor Bloomberg to close 20 fire companies

[peterose313 345]

Due to budget cuts.

NY Daily News

The FDNY refused to identify 20 fire companies slated for closure yesterday, sparking outrage from the City Council - and the threat of legal action.

Mayor Bloomberg plans to shutter 20 companies as part of the city's budget cuts, but the identities of the endangered units have been shrouded in mystery

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I also heard 36 Fire Alarm Dispatchers were to be laid off as well. Any truth to this?

[JBE 328]

Yes, it's true. Not sure how it's going to be done. We're led to believe this is just a step in phasing us out. This is ridiculous. We are short staffed as it is. OT is going to go through the roof.

[x635 4,066]

If they are closing fire companies, especially 20, would that mean layoffs? Or could it be covered by attrition?

It's good to see the Commisioner stand up to the City Council's BS, though. Seems like he has the FF's back.

[grumpyff 1,159]

No layoffs, yet. closing companies would reduce OT. Funny how every department has made budget cuts, but Bloomberg's pet projects like the waterfront and those unused bike lanes and pedestrian plazas continue to expand with no end in sight.

[ny10570 745]

Is it just me, or is it weird that the mayor always wants to close 20 companies. As the city's finances get better or worse he's always after 20 companies.

[FFLieu 70]

No layoffs, yet. closing companies would reduce OT. Funny how every department has made budget cuts, but Bloomberg's pet projects like the waterfront and those unused bike lanes and pedestrian plazas continue to expand with no end in sight.

Rich Uncle Pennybag's little pet project with the bike lanes is simple: he couldn't get congestion pricing passed several years ago, so now that he's well on his way to inventing a traffic problem vis-a-vis taking away a vehicular travel lane from just about every major thoroughfare in Manhattan, he can say that there is a legitimate traffic condition and therefore, the peasant citizenry should pay the price.

The man needs to be stopped. At this point, he's just as dangerous to the City as the crazy guy on the subway platform, mumbling to himself and making furtive movements as if he's about to push someone in front of an oncoming train.

[JBE 328]

Here's the thing. Cassano and Kilduff(Chief of Department) will wrangle and cajole and there will probably be a compromise. Let's say, 6 or 7 companies get shut down. Then they can come out and say, we saved 13 companies. I hate to say this, as so not to insult any of my cop brethren on this site. But you never hear about a precinct being shut down. You don't hear about patrol sectors being divvied up between three or four other sectors. Yes, the size of the force has gotten smaller, but if anything, this city needs a little more, not less than what it has.

They also didn't mention Bloombergs plan to take the alarm boxes. Fully implement UCT, whatever that means, which is a collossal failure. I can't wait to tug on the ear of a City Councilperson when that fight comes up. Or, when the lawsuit goes to court.

Edited May 17, 2011 by JBE

[ny10570 745]

JBE, your assessment is spot on. However police precincts don't go away because you can cut units without shuttering precincts. There are absolutely fewer units on patrol now than there were just a couple years ago.

[JBE 328]

And as a longtime FDNY member, I can tell you with some certainty, that if the staffing cuts, and company cuts keep going the way they are, and we have a day like we did in November, where there was no scheduled training because of the BIO POD flu shot exercise, and we still had something like 6 or 7 multiple alarms in 15 hours. I'm telling you, I made a statement about how an Engine from Yonkers would be sitting on Webster Avenue in the Bronx, and Rye Brook would have Ladder 30 hanging around 58 Truck, and North Hudson would have an Engine and Tiller in Times Square if it kept up. My Chief didn't find it funny, but I meant it. We get a stretch like that particular weekend, or like we had last July, hello mutual aid.

But, just as important, is the idea of losing 36 Fire Alarm Dispatchers. I have no idea how the city is going to even justify how to pull this off. We're short staffed as it is, OT is easy to come by for dispatchers, and in the summer, it's going to get worse. There's no OT for me, or at least very little. And I want the OT.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Scary thoughts JBE. PD staffing is absolutely down. Something like 20 guys a day retire. Most precincts are stripped to the bone. On a midnight, my command averages 5 to 6 cops and 1 sergeant to cover three subway lines in the Bronx. One cop has to cover the desk with a LT or a SGT. If there are any sick prisoners or bodies waiting to be lodged at Bronx CB from the othet tours, there is no one left for patrol. There are no new officers in sight and we have been told by the higher ups to make do.

[NWFDMedic 58]

JBE, your assessment is spot on. However police precincts don't go away because you can cut units without shuttering precincts. There are absolutely fewer units on patrol now than there were just a couple years ago.

I'm not making any judgment on the city's services or whether these cuts are good or bad, but if they're cutting police units so much, why don't they close some precincts and consolidate? It seems to me that closing a building would take away a lot of overhead, potentially saving jobs of other cops on the street.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Most of the current station houses could not physically handle a consolidation with another precinct. They would be bursting at the seams, especially in the locker rooms. You would not gain any more cops for patrol, and would gain a larger area to cover with longer response times. Plus NYC liked the ability to be able to walk into the neighborhood precinct when a complaint needs to be made.

[INIT915 1,119]

I hate to say this, as so not to insult any of my cop brethren on this site. But you never hear about a precinct being shut down. You don't hear about patrol sectors being divvied up between three or four other sectors. Yes, the size of the force has gotten smaller, but if anything, this city needs a little more, not less than what it has.

You might not hear about it it, but its happening. SP hasn't had a class since 2008, and potentially won't until 2013 at the earliest.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I'm starting to think my cousins in Brooklyn are right by saying the should seceed from NYC and become their own city again, but then again, that was the beer talking!

Just out of curiosity, how many single ladder houses are left citywide and would a consideration of moving them into a closer engine house be of any savings? I know that it probably won't even be a dent but it might help in a way. Just a though. Also did all the engine companies loose thier fifth firefighter in the last round?

[JJB531 652]

I hate to say this, as so not to insult any of my cop brethren on this site. But you never hear about a precinct being shut down. You don't hear about patrol sectors being divvied up between three or four other sectors.

No insult taken, but consolidating or shutting police precincts is impossible in NYC. In my old command we would turn out 4 or 5 sectors a night, each car handling on average between 20 and 25 jobs on a 4x12... This was an average night. In the summertime, the midnights would come in and we would be 20 to 30 jobs in backlog, meaning they were already coming into work 30 jobs behind the eight ball they had to handle first before they got to the jobs during their tour. It's not uncommon for complainants to have to wait hours for a patrol car to arrive to take a non-priority police report. Most precincts cover pretty big geographic areas as well, and the smaller commands tend to be very densely populated. In my old command, it could easily take well over 15 minutes to get from the north end of the command down to the southern border. With current staffing levels and the minimal amount of cars on patrol, patrol officers are already stretched way too thin with just the every day workload of handling jobs assigned by central, and now more is being expected of them in terms of proactively addressing conditions in their sector, increased summons and arrest activity to balance the jobs manpower shortage, and handling daily counterterrorism duties (CRV, Surge, etc.). So now the NYPD is thousands of officers below staffing, and the individual officers are expected to produce more with less. The majority of station houses can barely handle the number of personnel assigned to them, and holding cells on a busy night are literally "bursting at the bars" with perps. Once again, in my old command I had to share a locker with 2 other people my first year... I couldn't imagine shutting down a command and then being able to accommodate 300 cops and 2 times the number of prisoners without it being a complete nightmare. I can remember having to wait 2 hours just to be able to get on a working computer to start processing my collar.

The job hasn't escaped from the economy crunch unscathed. Yes, precincts haven't been shut down, but cops have been reassigned, details have been cut, manpower has been reduced in specialized units, ESU went 4 years without an STS class, Highway District went years without picking up any new personnel, academy classes have been minimal, and so on. I know cops who were in specialized units for years, and were the suddenly sent back to patrol because of staffing issues.

Edited May 17, 2011 by JJB531

[M' Ave 1,466]

I'm starting to think my cousins in Brooklyn are right by saying the should seceed from NYC and become their own city again, but then again, that was the beer talking!

Just out of curiosity, how many single ladder houses are left citywide and would a consideration of moving them into a closer engine house be of any savings? I know that it probably won't even be a dent but it might help in a way. Just a though. Also did all the engine companies loose thier fifth firefighter in the last round?

There are a few single trucks left around the job. In Manhattan, Ladders 3, 8, 20 and 25. In Brooklyn, Ladder 102. Lastly, in Queens, Ladder 116.

Moving them in with Engines doesn't accomplish what they're looking to do. Rigs and buildings might seem expensive, but it's manpower that actually costs something significant. The reason moving single Co's doesn't do what they want is, they're looking to close companies and still be able to have response times APPEAR the same. Although, they don't take into account how much longer it takes the 2nd or 3rd due units to arrive. Nor do they factor in the fact that a truck might get into a box and have no engine for 30 seconds, a minute or maybe longer. We're talking about a dangerous game of fudging numbers and the mayor is getting warmed up.

As for the 5th man, we've been without the Door Man since Feb. 1. Don't worry.....there's only been a few dozen fire deaths since the city effectively doubled the amount of time it takes to stretch into a building.....

Interesting that 3 years ago the city said, give us the 5th man or we're going to have to close fire companies. Now he's got the 5th man AND gunning for companies.

As for layoffs, no there won't be any. We're at least 300 under headcount right now. Some closings would effectively eat up that difference, in the short term. We're not going to hire for another 18-24 months minimum.

[16fire5 693]

Single trucks are not the answer. Yeah sure if they get in first on a can job they can do something but things work best when engines and trucks respond from the same house and the engine goes in the block first. Trucks will find themselves in tough situations with no water doing searches and VES.

[25truck26 29]

Everyone is right in regards to PD. My PCT was heavy with impact cops and now that is starting to thin as guys are being picked up for crime and conditions teams (IDK how I feel about that). Impact works but has many problems and 1 thing is that rookie cops are not learning. Sectors turn out 3 or 4 cars covering multiple sectors with many jobs holding. The paper is not lying on response times. Assaults or calls for shots fired is coming in but you can't leave your current job at an assault or domestic so you may not get there until 15-20 min later. Sometimes jobs are an hour old. There are many rumors in the city about units or Bureaus being disbanded. Counterterrorism is needed and so are cops on the street. Whats the answer?

jBE I don't take any offense to what you said about PD

[JBE 328]

No insult taken, but consolidating or shutting police precincts is impossible in NYC. In my old command we would turn out 4 or 5 sectors a night, each car handling on average between 20 and 25 jobs on a 4x12... This was an average night. In the summertime, the midnights would come in and we would be 20 to 30 jobs in backlog, meaning they were already coming into work 30 jobs behind the eight ball they had to handle first before they got to the jobs during their tour. It's not uncommon for complainants to have to wait hours for a patrol car to arrive to take a non-priority police report. Most precincts cover pretty big geographic areas as well, and the smaller commands tend to be very densely populated. In my old command, it could easily take well over 15 minutes to get from the north end of the command down to the southern border. With current staffing levels and the minimal amount of cars on patrol, patrol officers are already stretched way too thin with just the every day workload of handling jobs assigned by central, and now more is being expected of them in terms of proactively addressing conditions in their sector, increased summons and arrest activity to balance the jobs manpower shortage, and handling daily counterterrorism duties (CRV, Surge, etc.). So now the NYPD is thousands of officers below staffing, and the individual officers are expected to produce more with less. The majority of station houses can barely handle the number of personnel assigned to them, and holding cells on a busy night are literally "bursting at the bars" with perps. Once again, in my old command I had to share a locker with 2 other people my first year... I couldn't imagine shutting down a command and then being able to accommodate 300 cops and 2 times the number of prisoners without it being a complete nightmare. I can remember having to wait 2 hours just to be able to get on a working computer to start processing my collar.

The job hasn't escaped from the economy crunch unscathed. Yes, precincts haven't been shut down, but cops have been reassigned, details have been cut, manpower has been reduced in specialized units, ESU went 4 years without an STS class, Highway District went years without picking up any new personnel, academy classes have been minimal, and so on. I know cops who were in specialized units for years, and were the suddenly sent back to patrol because of staffing issues.

Just out of curiosity, has the PBA stepped up and tried to rally for more cops?? I know how overworked you guys are. I saw it with my Dad 25 years ago when he was a patrol Sergeant in the 46. M, I'm right there with you with the 10-45's. Nobody in the press has mentioned that fire deaths are up. Nobody seems to mention that UCT is a joke either. Before anyone gets bent about this going off track, it all kinda goes hand in hand. the Mayor is behind policies and programs that have done nothing to enhance the safety of the public. He threatened to cut staffing or disband companies. 6 companies disbanded in 2003. 5th man on engine companies taken away earlier this year. Construction of PSAC1, BILLIONS WASTED!!!! Renovation of the Queens and Bronx Dispatchers offices. OK great, but why leave the sections built for Manhattan(in the Bronx) Brooklyn and SI(In Queens) vacant?? A back up?? That's what PSAC 1 should be. A back up for these buildings. Citytime, WASTE OF MONEY!!! And, when you look at how much the consultants were skimming off the top. UCT??? the Mayor wants to fully implement it?? BWAHAHAHAH!!!! At least ten people killed by the knuckleheads answering 911 for NYPD. Half these people can barely spell, and you want them to take fire calls?? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! And personally, shame on Commissioner(Then COD) Cassano, and now Chief of Communications Boyce to come out and say UCT works. Tell that to the families of people who have been killed, or lost property because the 911 operators couldn't type in an address properly. Tell that to the guy who had to wait an extra half hour stuck on his jet ski because NYPD said he was by the Brooklyn Bridge, then said he was in the Hudson by a small bridge. Then after a PROPERLY TRAINED SUPERVISING FIRE DISPATCHER(Moi!!!) called this guy and asked him a couple of simple questions, "What do you see around you?? What do the bridges look like?? What Else Do You See?? A History Channel Sign?? We'll be there in 5 minutes". Ask that guy if UCT works.

Edited May 18, 2011 by JBE

[25truck26 29]

IDK JBE maybe one of the other guys can answer that. I know we are also without contract almost a year now.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I dont think we wil see any negotiations anytime soon. Bloomburg has done his best to poison public opinion against us. Lets face it until the precinct that covers Bloomburg's residence is short staffed and fire house has a delayed response because they are covering larger areas he does not give a $&!

[JBE 328]

I don't want to see any precinct closed, it bothers me to even see you guys short staffed. I doubt the 19th Precinct(Bloombergs Precinct and where my old man worked in the late 70's early 80's) would ever be short staffed. And if you think for one second, the Mayor is going to allow 44 Engine(which was made a Haz Mat Tech Unit after the last batch of closings), 22 Engine, 13 Truck, 16 Truck, or 39 Engine(High Rise 2) to be closed, I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Edited May 18, 2011 by JBE

[JJB531 652]

To the best of my knowledge the PBA hasn't done too much in terms of making a big stink about the manpower shortage.

[nycmedic 65]

I am going to get flack for saying this but stop the cfr program. It does not work. All it does is stop the clock. Have the firefighters go back to performing fire duties. If you take out the ems runs the call volume for the fire side will cut in half. Then you can close the 20 companies with out a problem. In all honesty the Mayor would rather spend billions on water front property and bike lanes instead essential services. These projects and entitlement programs should be cut first. But that will never happen.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I am going to get flack for saying this but stop the cfr program. It does not work. All it does is stop the clock. Have the firefighters go back to performing fire duties. If you take out the ems runs the call volume for the fire side will cut in half. Then you can close the 20 companies with out a problem. In all honesty the Mayor would rather spend billions on water front property and bike lanes instead essential services. These projects and entitlement programs should be cut first. But that will never happen.

Really? Are you serious?! You actually can't close ONE company without a problem. Get a couple of multiples going and you end up with companies all over the city being relocated and running like mad! As for the CFR engine program....let me start with this: I HATE EMS! I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT! That's why I'm a fireman and not an EMT/Medic. That being said, it is an extremely effective lifesaving tool. Your B.S. line that it doesn't work deprives the rest of your statements of credibility! To be blunt, it makes you seem as though you might be going through life with your eyes closed. We've performed CPR more times than I can count, for several cycles of the AED until the first EMS unit arrived. I've worked with crews that had pre-hospital saves, though fewer than those that passed. How worth while is it to have 4 extra guys to rotate in on compressions during an arrest? Do you really think the two BLS members are enough while ALS is tubing and pushing meds? IT AIN'T! We've been on traumas and car accidents with serious injury and had victims packaged and ready to be stuck in a bus the moment (sometimes 10+ minutes later) they arrive. To a lesser degree of importance, we've sat with people in minor pain, for 20 minutes waiting for a bus. Not miracle work, but I'm sure it's nice for that person to have the comfort of first responders on scene.

I don't like EMS work, but that doesn't change the fact that countless lives are saved (or at least made more comfortable) every year by the speedy response of a CFR engine.

The FDNY can't spare a single engine or ladder company. Not one. They might not be busy all the time, but they're needed when it counts. If running EMS helps justify they're existence to those who don't understand how the fire service works, then I'm all for it. The CFR engine program saves lives, both at EMS and by keeping more companies open and available when fires break out.

Edited May 18, 2011 by M' Ave

[nycmedic 65]

The reason why the engine company usually arrives before the ambulance is because the Engine has a two minute head start. The engine gets assigned on the pd call type. EMS gets assigned when the CRO is done triaging the call. Know matter what line of work you do the more hands the better. But with that being said EMS is my job fighting fires is yours. I can do a arrest with a bls and a boss with out delaying or compromising patient care. I have canceled the CFR numerous times on a arrest and still have a high ROSC rate. Like I said if you get rid of the CFR program then there will be more engine companies available for the fire.

Edited May 18, 2011 by nycmedic

[nycmedic 65]

M'ave I agree with you that no companies should be closed. The point that I am trying to get across is if you close 20 fire companies then you have to get rid of the cfr program.Very few companies will be available for fires with 20 companies closed and the cfr program still going. I do not agree with Bloomberg's policies and proposals. Like I said earlier the essential services should be the last thing to cut. Not the first. I can name a bunch off of the top of my head that should be cut or scrapped all together. Such as City time, UCT, bike lanes, medicaid, section 8, free cell phones, day care, and so on.

[JBE 328]

If it weren't for the CFR program, there would have been a ton of companies closed in the early 90's when it was first adapted. I know the guys out on the street don't always like doing EMS runs, but if it keeps even one firehouse open, so be it. We need more, not less. We could use an extra engine and 2 trucks in Queens, at least another couple of engines, and a truck or two in SI, with a dedicated Squad. I would also like to see at least one more truck opened up in the Bronx.

[M' Ave 1,466]

M'ave I agree with you that no companies should be closed. The point that I am trying to get across is if you close 20 fire companies then you have to get rid of the cfr program.Very few companies will be available for fires with 20 companies closed and the cfr program still going. I do not agree with Bloomberg's policies and proposals. Like I said earlier the essential services should be the last thing to cut. Not the first. I can name a bunch off of the top of my head that should be cut or scrapped all together. Such as City time, UCT, bike lanes, medicaid, section 8, free cell phones, day care, and so on.

I understand what you're saying here, but your two initial quotes are still wrong. "Without CFR you could close 20 companies no problem"...uh, nope. And, "stop the cfr progra, it does not work". It does in fact work. Studies have proven it works. The 2 minute head start hardly explains waiting 5 and 10 times that long for a bus. That's not your guys fault, it's the system. It happens non-the-less. As for canceling a CFR engine en-route, why would you do that? 2 EMTs CANNOT perform adequate CPR, in terms of depth and compression rate over that time period.

Your logic fails to respect the bigger picture on many fronts, sorry.