Tradition vs. Progress

[INIT915 1,119]

Another thread got me thinking. In the fire service, how does one balance tradition versus progress? Is innovation shunned in the interest of just "doing it how it's always been done"?

I realize this could apply to LE as well, but I believe tradition is often rooted deeper in the fire service.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Another thread got me thinking. In the fire service, how does one balance tradition versus progress? Is innovation shunned in the interest of just "doing it how it's always been done"?

I realize this could apply to LE as well, but I believe tradition is often rooted deeper in the fire service.

Tradition (in the sense of prevention of moving forward) blocks progress while progress is blocked by politicians.

Enough said?

[firemoose827 324]

Another thread got me thinking. In the fire service, how does one balance tradition versus progress? Is innovation shunned in the interest of just "doing it how it's always been done"?

I realize this could apply to LE as well, but I believe tradition is often rooted deeper in the fire service.

I think of tradition as respecting the senior firefighters, ex-officers, and officers around the firehouse, following orders both at scenes and around firehouse, any local in-house traditions such as hazing new members or new officers, having a "Mascot" like a dog, or family picnics and parties. Tradition is knowing your place in the firehouse and acting accordingly, like when you are new, keeping your mouth shut, always volunteering to do all tasks around firehouse, and not act like you know it all.

As far as the fire service, it is a constantly changing dynamic environment that needs to change with the times and technology, and any tradition that impedes this forward movement should be re-evaluated and new traditions started. Just because it is "Tradition" doesnt necessarily mean it can not be changed, and new traditions started. Some traditions should become history...But others still have their place.

[NWFDMedic 58]

This concept can be applied to any of the 3 major emergency service divisions.

[INIT915 1,119]

This concept can be applied to any of the 3 major emergency service divisions.

Agreed. I think the fire service has more in terms of what I consider "tradition." Conversely, EMS has the least, for no other reason then its a comparatively younger service. Additionally, I think evidence based research and best practice reports are utilized more frequently in EMS than in either fire or law enforcement. That's not necessarily because EMS is more proactive in its approach, rather, EMS benefits from being a "relative" of established medicine who rely heavily on that educated, research based approach.

[FFPCogs 863]

'200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress". Many of us are familiar with this phrase and most I'm sure can apply it to at least one aspect of their FD. Without doubt tradition is a powerful force within the American Fire Service. It can act as a catalyst for progress or in some cases, as an impediment to it. To me there are some traditions, some inviolate cornerstones, born at the inception of organized fire protection in this country, that are in fact the very foundation on which our service rests. Things like putting those we serve above ourselves, courage, honor, dedication and the desire to do our duty in spite of the obstacles. The noblilty of what we do and all that makes it possible is rare indeed in the world today and that is a tradition that thankfully has withstood the passage of time and changes to society. But when tradition impedes progress, when the steadfast refusal to "get with the times" causes a FD to stagnate, it is not only a disservice to those we serve but dangerous. For many "we've always done it that way" suffices because it is comfortable...that is until tradgedy strikes. Change...progress...is always difficult because it takes people out of the known, out of their comfort zone, and beyond that the call for change, for "progress", usually implies that something is wrong...and who among us likes to be told they are wrong.

As with most things in life the trick is to find a balance between what works and what needs to change. Technology will always evolve and that progression will ultimately create changes in tools, tactics and our knowledge of the enemy. For some the ability to get on board with these "new" tangibles is not always easy, or practical, but it is almost universally inevitable. And this is how is should be. But with these new tangibles of tools, tactics and training comes a responsibility to not let them overtake or undermine the traditions that have made us who and what we are. Progress should never eclipse the intangilbles of courage, honor and dedication that make the American fireman what he is at his core. For each of us and our FDs progress should strive to find the balance that best suits our needs and more importantly those of our community. Neither progress or tradition should be allowed to impede the ability of us to effectively do our duty, for it is both when in balance that allows us to do it well.

Cogs

Edited May 12, 2011 by FFPCogs

[helicopper 1,050]

Tradition (in the sense of prevention of moving forward) blocks progress while progress is blocked by politicians.

Enough said?

Politicians are not always the impediment to progress. I've watched first hand as emergency services providers lobbied quite loudly against things that were the defacto standard of care in the interest of keeping things the way they always were.

We are quite often our own worst enemy!

[v85 212]

'200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress". Many of us are familiar with this phrase and most I'm sure can apply it to at least one aspect of their FD. Without doubt tradition is a powerful force within the American Fire Service. It can act as a catalyst for progress or in some cases, as an impediment to it. To me there are some traditions, some inviolate cornerstones, born at the inception of organized fire protection in this country, that are in fact the very foundation on which our service rests. Things like putting those we serve above ourselves, courage, honor, dedication and the desire to do our duty in spite of the obstacles. The noblilty of what we do and all that makes it possible is rare indeed in the world today and that is a tradition that thankfully has withstood the passage of time and changes to society. But when tradition impedes progress, when the steadfast refusal to "get with the times" causes a FD to stagnate, it is not only a disservice to those we serve but dangerous. For many "we've always done it that way" suffices because it is comfortable...that it until tradgedy strikes. Change...progress...is always difficult because it takes people out of the known, out of their comfort zone, and beyond that the call for change, for "progress", usually implies that something is wrong...and who among us likes to be told they are wrong.

As with most things in life the trick is to find a balance between what works and what needs to change. Technology will always evolve and that progression will ultimately create changes in tools, tactics and our knowledge of the enemy. For some the ability to get on board with these "new" tangibles is not always easy, or practical, but it is almost universally inevitable. And this is how is should be. But with these new tangibles of tools, tactics and training comes a responsibility to not let them overtake or undermine the traditions that have made us who and what we are. Progress should never eclipse the intangilbles of courage, honor and dedication that make the American fireman what he is at his core. For each of us and our FDs progress should strive to find the balance that best suits our needs and more importantly those of our community. Neither progress or tradition should be allowed to impede the ability of us to effectively do our duty for it is both when in balance, that allows us to do it well.

Cogs

I definately agree. There is a big difference between dropping outdated, outmoded, and often unsafe and ineffective techniques or equipment in favor of ones that do work or adopting a new technique or equipment after careful review; and getting rid of tried and true practices for a whiz-bang, high-tech one just because it looks "cool" or some salesperson or magazine gave it a rave review.

Edited May 12, 2011 by v85

[x129K 1,393]

Tradition? Most of the guys in the fire service have already turned their back on that old dog....sadly.

[paratrooper75 41]

Tradition definitley hinders the progression of the services needed. 1000%. I won't elaborate because I just don't want to get started on this one.

[wraftery 1,275]

Tradition has nothing to do with strategy, tactics, thermal imaging, smooth bore tips, and so on. It is about respect for those who came before us by doing our jobs in a certain manner. It is a jargon that any fireman would quickly recognise as ours. They are not fire trucks, they are Engines and Trucks, and they are housed in quarters on the apparatus floor (not the garage). To test tradition in your firehiuse, try this: Leave a $100 bill and a cupcake on the kitchen counter. Turn around, and the cupcake will be gone. Turn old and gray and the $100 will still be there.

Tradition has its place. It doesnt impede progress. It helps us make progress,even at the worst of times.

“I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we who know the work which the fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling. Our proudest moment is to save lives. Under the impulse of such thoughts, the nobility of the occupation thrills us and stimulates us to deeds of daring, even of supreme sacrifice.”

Chief Edward F. Croker

[x129K 1,393]

Tradition is our roots, and reminds us that even with all of the bells and whistles and fancy "stuff" we have and do now, our mission remains unchanged. We are firemen....and when there is a fire, people know they can count on us.

[bad box 371]

One of the great traditions in the fire service is the continued search for better and safer ways to get the job done, be it fire or emergency. Fire departments make use of NIOSH reports (which detail the findings of incidents that resulted in serious injuries or deaths of firefighters) both in formal classes as well as in house training. F.D.'s critique operations upon return to quarters to identify what went well and what (if anything) requires updating, additional training, etc.. F.D.'s perform research and development of new, modified or otherwise improved equipment. Another important tradition is the tradition of 'doing the right thing'. This encompasses everything from making sure all equipment is checked and service ready, to helping out a member's loved one's while he / she is hospitalized, to turning out for wakes, funerals, etc. It's the bond of 'Brotherhood / Sisterhood that helps to keep one pushing in that extra couple of feet when things are going bad fast and someone needs us. There are some things that we do at serious, extremely dangerous incidents that we can only do knowing that everyone is there for you and will die trying to save you if need be.

[16fire5 693]

Tradition in the fire service is how we make firefighters. It is through our senior firefighters that our trade is handed down learned. While we are taught basic and fundamental skills in the fire academy it's the conversations at the backstep after a fire, on the apparatus floor, and in the kitchen where we hand down the tradition. When the rig shows up with a relativly young crew but they perform well at a fire it's because of tradition. So some may see it as a detriment but I see it as fundamental to who we are.

[SECTMB 612]

Grandfather member of Hope Hose. Father member of Hope Hose and Hilltop Engine. Three brothers members of Scarborough Engine. Three sons/cousins members of Scarborough Engine. Tradition.

[abaduck 123]

Grandfather member of Hope Hose. Father member of Hope Hose and Hilltop Engine. Three brothers members of Scarborough Engine. Three sons/cousins members of Scarborough Engine. Tradition.

No-one in my family has any connection to the fire service, to my knowledge.

I guess I'm starting a new tradition.

Mike

[gamewell45 258]

Grandfather, member Lincoln Engine Co. No.9, City of York Pa; Father, Honorary Member Lincoln Engine Co. No.9, City of York, Pa.; Brother, past member D.P. Hays Hose Company, Pleasantville FD; both my son and daughter very active members Beekman Fire Company; myself 36 years in the fire service between D.P. Hays Hose Company, Pleasantville FD and Beekman Fire Company.

Edited May 14, 2011 by gamewell45

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Tradition is wearing your company patch with absolute pride; Progress is not letting that pride get in the way of effective, real service for those who ask for it.

Tradition is doing your job; Progress is doing your job and more.

Tradition is listening to the senior mans stories and learning from them; Progress experiencing your own and passing the lessons down about new dangers.

Edited May 14, 2011 by SRS131EMTFF

[FFPCogs 863]

Progress is here:

Tradition is here:

[Mikefrmny 0]

Progress = Bunch of under achievers pretending to be doing something important by creating mass of paperwork that means nothing and does nothing in the firefight

Tradition = Well meaning FFs who fight these idiots everyday to preserve what has worked for 200 hundred years. Put the Wet Stuff on the Red stuff, Stupid!!

My proof...I live it everyday!!

[The Axe 8]

Tradition has nothing to do with strategy, tactics, thermal imaging, smooth bore tips, and so on. It is about respect for those who came before us by doing our jobs in a certain manner. It is a jargon that any fireman would quickly recognise as ours. They are not fire trucks, they are Engines and Trucks, and they are housed in quarters on the apparatus floor (not the garage). To test tradition in your firehiuse, try this: Leave a $100 bill and a cupcake on the kitchen counter. Turn around, and the cupcake will be gone. Turn old and gray and the $100 will still be there.

Tradition has its place. It doesnt impede progress. It helps us make progress,even at the worst of times.

“I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we who know the work which the fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling. Our proudest moment is to save lives. Under the impulse of such thoughts, the nobility of the occupation thrills us and stimulates us to deeds of daring, even of supreme sacrifice.”

Chief Edward F. Croker

I salute you Chief. You are 100% correct

[firecapt32 282]

Let me add my 2 cents to this:

Tradition is electing your Fire Officers and Chiefs by popular vote and electing them because "it's their time"

Progress is electing your Fire Officers and Chiefs by their training and qualifications.

[SteveOFD 176]

Let me add my 2 cents to this:

Tradition is electing your Fire Officers and Chiefs by popular vote and electing them because "it's their time"

Progress is electing your Fire Officers and Chiefs by their training and qualifications.

Amen to that!!!

[wraftery 1,275]

I salute you Chief. You are 100% correct

Ah, yes, the salute; another tradition that has almost gone by the wayside. It is a sign of respect given between professionals in the military and paramilitary organizations. Thanks for the salute, Lieu and I return the salute.

Did you know that long before ICS came to be the command protocal, a transfer of incident command occurred between the "Fireground Commander" and an arriving superior officer? After the "Watcha got/What are you doin" conversation, a salute indicated the exact point that command was transferred.

I am putting my helmet on now, so I don't get hurt by the salvos that may be fired at me by the "Saluting is a stupid tradition" supporters.

I just hope that the 5,000 or more attendees at Firefighters funerals really mean that salute and are not just going through the motions.

[FFPCogs 863]

Ah, yes, the salute; another tradition that has almost gone by the wayside. It is a sign of respect given between professionals in the military and paramilitary organizations. Thanks for the salute, Lieu and I return the salute.

Did you know that long before ICS came to be the command protocal, a transfer of incident command occurred between the "Fireground Commander" and an arriving superior officer? After the "Watcha got/What are you doin" conversation, a salute indicated the exact point that command was transferred.

I am putting my helmet on now, so I don't get hurt by the salvos that may be fired at me by the "Saluting is a stupid tradition" supporters.

I just hope that the 5,000 or more attendees at Firefighters funerals really mean that salute and are not just going through the motions.

Saluting is a tradition that could stand a resurgence.

Cogs

[Fireman488 57]

Ah, yes, the salute; another tradition that has almost gone by the wayside. It is a sign of respect given between professionals in the military and paramilitary organizations. Thanks for the salute, Lieu and I return the salute.

Did you know that long before ICS came to be the command protocal, a transfer of incident command occurred between the "Fireground Commander" and an arriving superior officer? After the "Watcha got/What are you doin" conversation, a salute indicated the exact point that command was transferred.

I am putting my helmet on now, so I don't get hurt by the salvos that may be fired at me by the "Saluting is a stupid tradition" supporters.

I just hope that the 5,000 or more attendees at Firefighters funerals really mean that salute and are not just going through the motions.

I agree with you Chief.

Saluting used to be common on the police job also. A police officer on a foot post was expected to the salute the sergeant when he arrived to sign the officer's memo book.

Of course you need to be wearing a hat to salute properly. Most POs don't wear hats anymore.

I guess I'm really dating myself.

[61MACKBR1 222]

Tradition means respect for those who have served before you as well as respect for those who are now new to the service. Remember, respect is a "two way street" and it goes both ways. Saluting an officer or retired officer (Police, EMS and Fireservice AS well as Military) should be common practice (sadly this has gone by the wasteside by many). Some traditions need to go, such as hazings, as it no longer has a productive place in the service. However, some need to come back, such as Uniformed Police Officers wearing formal policeman hats