Tankers in Urban Applications?

[x635 4,066]

A few recent incidents sparked a though I've always wondered about....

How come urbans areas don't have tankers or water tenders?

I would think they would be useful for low-volume situations, water main breaks, truck and brush fires in remote areas and on interstates, and other similar type situations.

These departments have plenty of "special circumstance" apparatus, so why aren't tankers or water tenders in the mix??

[JBE 328]

I would think that because most areas have a water supply that is in better condition.

[x635 4,066]

I would think that because most areas have a water supply that is in better condition.

But it's not always about a water supply in good condition, it's those "other" times....

[PVFD113 6]

I could be wrong--haven't researched this totally throughout Putnam and Westchester but--the most departments that don't have tankers have more than sufficent water systems for the bulk of the jobs they get. In the cases where things go bad they have mutual aid close by. Lets say Mohegan--they have Continental village, Putnam Valley, Mahopac Falls, and Yorktown close by. We call Mohegan for a ladder when we need it (no need for us to get one) they can call for a tanker> Resource sharing?? Peekskill has the same resources available as Mohegan--the Falls may be stretching it BUT remember back to December when Mahopac made it down to Peekskill.

Now go south--Maybe some one in the tri village could get one to aid the area--Croton only has the one. Croton does have(normally) a Tanker--they have areas that they need it--as does Millwood. I say Booster tanks should be 750-1,000. You SHOULD be able to douse the fire with 1,000 gallons--at least put it out--if you need more for overhaul call mutual aid tanker. Kinda back and forth with my comments but I think you can see where I am going with this. Almost like the Tower craze in Westchester--does everyone need a tower ladder? No some should have a stick--mix it up--I know it is not right to "count on" mutual aid but really what is wrong with "sharing" resources??

[EJS1810 7]

Why is it wrong to "count on Mutual Aid"? It's time we stopped being our own islands or empires and started working on a true mutual aid system where everyone contributed. One Department provides the engine, 1 the tanker and 1 the truck. We owe it to our taxpayers (employers) to spend thier money wisely. This works in many other areas of the country. PG County in Maryland, many areaa of Virginia, the MABAS system in the Chicago suburbs are just a few examples of where it works when done right

I know everone is afraid or the big C word (consolidation) but that will be the future of the fire service. Putnam County Commissioner McMahon spoke about this at eh january County Fire Chiefs/Advisory Board. We have to look forward.

I digress on the topic of tankers in urban areas, which is a good idea as a back up.

[TRUCK6018 50]

I would think they would be useful for low-volume situations, water main breaks, truck and brush fires in remote areas and on interstates, and other similar type situations.  

I can think of times there have been more tankers in a Sound Shore City than the Northern County due to water main breaks. If memory serves me correctly, there was a tanker standing by every station in this city under mutual aid.

If all departments got on the same page and shared resources, it wouldn't be a problem.

[PVFD113 6]

Ed you are 100% correct. There are some people that feel it is wrong to count on mutual aid(on the forums here). It is not my opinion-Sharing is the way to go-no doubt

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sharing is good to a point. There are some things every department should be self-sufficient on and especially in the day and age we are in today with terrorism, or in instances like the black out. Sharing is one thing, counting on mutual aid can be like playing russian roulette when it comes to public and emergency responder safety. Things can go to hell in a hand basket quickly anytime, anyplace. I'd rather be on island but know there is a bridge, and if the bridge fails I can still support my island as best as possible.

[grumpyff 1,159]

The cost of purchasing and maintaining a tanker/water tender for an incident is what kills it. The urban areas spend their money to maintain the municipal water sytem, so justifying a tanker that maybe used once in how many years would not sit well with taxpayers/ city councils. Look at the struggle some departments have getting equipment they truly need, such as a fire house that will fit todays apparatus.

[mfc2257 464]

There is a fairly long history of Tankers being pulled into areas with hydrants when they are needed.... Here are a few examples.... I think the MA system in Westchester has this covered fairly well right now.

About 8 years ago, Tanker 15 shadowed a New Rochelle engine company for almost 24 hours while the hydrant system was compromised.

Briarcliff added Tanker 15 to the box for their fuel truck explosion last year.

Chappaqua added several tankers to a job in a low volume area about 4 or 5 years ago

Peekskill ran a water shuttle at the big fire they had at the strip mall/car dealership a few months back....

[x648eng119 2]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Tanker 10 was called to Mt Vernon a few years back for water main problems.

[Remember585 815]

T10 went to Mount Vernon and Elmsford due to water main problems.

T10 has been to fires in Peekskill, Chappaqua and Archville before too. These incidents were due to poor water availability.

Like many of you said, if you don't need something on your initial alarm at least 50% of the time, then buying one of your own may not be feasible, and using Mutual Aid may be the best thing you can do.

[Guest x2371]

In P'ville we have a great water system EXCEPT in three different areas were we will be using Tanker opps if we get a job. We have Poconico Hills and Millwood to soon be on an automatic mutal aide for those area's for a possible fire(to get the 6,000 gallons of water on the road so it will be there when we need it not 10 minutes to late)

[x635 4,066]

But look at foam units, Hazmat-Decon units, and all the other "special circumstance" type apparatus that rarely gets used for a real job, but is essential to have.....I would think a tanker would be an addiiton to this reserve arsenal.

[x648eng119 2]

It's not a bad idea - i bet an old oil tanker or something could be picked up for less than $150k and fabricated with a dump on it. I'm actually suprised YFD or another larger agency hasn't done it yet.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

It sounds good if you might be short on manpower. You won't really need to worry about having someone there to hit the hydrant.

[mstrang1 213]

If three or four municipalities get together in lower westchester(maybe fairview/greenville/hartsdale) and purchased a single tanker for use in all three districts, plus mutual aid, that would be a great asset. If it was stored at fairview HQ(im pretty sure they have the room), tactically that would be a good idea. just getting the town board on board.

[x635 4,066]

The 'view has absolutely no room whatsover, and the floors are failing in both stations. Station 1 and 2 can barely fit what they have now, and some apparatus is even stored outside.

Fairview is long overdue for new stations.

Hartsdale may be able to fit it, maybe in 2 years !! I'd love to see a Greenburgh FD Tanker, lol!!

[x648eng119 2]

That'd be cool - AS LONG AS IT'S RED!!! LOL

[Shantz02 0]

I was looking through some pics from a few years back the other day. Tanker 5 (the old one) was down in Pelham when the water main broke underneath the Lake Isle reservior( if you look on mapquest, it is labeled "Reservior No 1" located just west of exit 18W on the Hutchinson River Parkway).

[Guest alsfirefighter]

648 apparantly you've never taken EVOC with me. Old oil trucks are the worst thing that can be made into tankers. Sorry 635 but I won't use tenders, thats a word for the left coast with their cheezy trojan man helmets. Even with the word retrofit, most will just boost the suspension because of the difference in weight of oil vs. water. However they often keep the tank and its baffled different. A high percentage of fire apparatus rollovers involve tankers. Years ago many were these oil trucks turned tankers that were never changed from their original function.

Peekskill called tankers to the strip mall fire not due to poor water availability but the fact that we maximized the water system. In effect it was tapped out to its limit, there were sections of the city that had no water because of the flows being taken from it.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Pleeeasseee stay away from oil trucks or any other tanker not specifically built for a fire department tanker. the largest percentage of fire apparatus accidents involve tankers, most of them are converted fuelers.

It is a good idea for an urban department to utilize a tanker, in some aspectas it could cut down on the wear and tear of your frontline equipment. Departments that have multiple limited access highways with out bridge standpipes would benefit. how about open spaces/parks that are far from a municipal water system ? [ look at the fire in central park this week ]I thought my water system was great, until last year when twice, in a matter of a few weeks I had to revert to tanker shuttles in my business district for structure fires due to frozen hydrants/damaged hydrants.

Although buying a tanker may not fit into your plan of operation or pocket book, you should be able to know where to get them in a hurry. If you do buy one, look at what your needs are. Plan on how it is used, where are you going to get water from ?[if your system fails, where do I fill it/them] If I have one, will it be enough, will you need to supplement ?[figure out what you flow today with hydrants] If you use LDH and have a long lay, remember 1 .1 gallon per foot in 5" hose. [so if you have 1000' of 5" out , you have a resiviour of 1100 gallons you cant use]If you use it in a nurse situation minimum 500 gpm, 2000 gallons. [in mysituation last year, both tankers 1000gpm/2000gallons, supplied a master stream on my second due and stop the spread to an exposure]

there are pro's and cons, its really up to what you need.

[x648eng119 2]

Good points I never thought about. The main reason I brought up an old oil tanker is because Croton's Orignal T10 was a converted tanker truck. After what we went through with out Tanker rollover last year, I wouldn't mess around with anything like that. We got lucky that it wasn't as bad as it had the potential to be.