Oklahoma Votes To Eliminate Collective Bargaining Rights For Some Public Service Employees

[gamewell45 258]

Oklahoma has joined the ranks of states like Ohio, Wisconsin, etc when their senate passed legislation removing collective bargaining rights from non-uniformed employees. Don't be surprised if they go after the uniformed services next.

http://news.yahoo.co...unions_oklahoma

[EMSer 15]

Unions are irrational and solely support the leftist Democratic platform, even though their union members tend to be people that consider themselves “center-right.”

I support all governments that have objectives to make sure unions are kept in line and do what is best for the union members and not the union itself or the Democratic agenda

well done Oklahoma

[FD828 77]

Unions are irrational and solely support the leftist Democratic platform, even though their union members tend to be people that consider themselves "center-right."

I support all governments that have objectives to make sure unions are kept in line and do what is best for the union members and not the union itself or the Democratic agenda

well done Oklahoma

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.

Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

[INIT915 1,119]

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.

Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

You have to excuse him. His anti-Union posts are typical.

[EMSer 15]

Dude, wake up. They are taking away rights that these unions fought for. It is anti-American what those states have done. It is not the unions that have put the municipalities in the spot they are in. The republicans are pitting the working class against each other. (It's not fair that the unions have this and the rest of the workers don't. Vote republican and we will get rid of the big bad unions) Do you really think that the non-union citizens will see any difference in their taxes? You are kidding yourself if you think the residents will get a tax break if they strip the unions of their collective bargaining rights. The unions are not to blame. Nor are they unwilling to make concessions. But don't sit there and say that we have to cut this and that and watch those cutting get raises and if you think it hasn't happened you are insane. They are destroying what so many have worked for. It is not right.

Your comment of making sure unions are kept in line... what exactly do you mean? The unions have to negotiate every single thing in their contracts with... yup the municipality! So don't sit there and say it is the unions fault, the contracts have to be agreed to by both sides. The unions have not strong armed anyone. They have fairly negotiated their contracts. So you are saying well done to Oklahoma because you think this will be what is best for the union members themselves but not the union itself? So basically the cities can now say you will get this for pay and this for vacation and this for medical and if you don't like it you can go work elsewhere. So how is this better for the union member???

Fairly negotiated??????

"Dude" YOU need to wake up!

civil service unions:

allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

allow workers to further their college education...

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does:

CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension!

work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions!

PAY for your own education!

and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting.

I am all for unions promoting themselves and protecting themselves via strenght in numbers, but everything I mentioned is a "gimme, gimme, gimme" complex that's effing up this country, state and county

Edited April 20, 2011 by EMSer

[EMSer 15]

You have to excuse him. His anti-Union posts are typical.

typical?

of course they're typical!

3/4 of the country believes public unions have to be restructured, 1/4 of the country thinks public unions are perfect the way they are. so, you tell me what typical actually is!

damn ignorance...

[INIT915 1,119]

typical?

of course they're typical!

3/4 of the country believes public unions have to be restructured, 1/4 of the country thinks public unions are perfect the way they are. so, you tell me what typical actually is!

damn ignorance...

Well, a few things.

I might suggest that your grammar is more ignorant then my opinion, but I’m above that, so I won’t. 

And while discussing ignorance, let's take a look at your "facts".

civil service unions:

allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

allow workers to further their college education...

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does:

CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension!

work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions!

PAY for your own education!

Every single one of your assertions is wrong. I believe that is ignorant. Your contention that all public employee unions are entitled to all the benefits you list is just absurd. Please let us know the source where you are drawing your "facts" from.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Fairly negotiated??????

"Dude" YOU need to wake up!

civil service unions:

allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

allow workers to further their college education...

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does:

CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension!

work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions!

PAY for your own education!

and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting.

I am all for unions promoting themselves and protecting themselves via strenght in numbers, but everything I mentioned is a "gimme, gimme, gimme" complex that's effing up this country, state and county

New hires do pay into their retirement and most jobs are moving over to medical contributions. Teachers get medical FREE upon retirement, so Police and Fire shouldn't?

I would LOVE to get raises base on merit and productivity, I'd be a millionare, but then again everyone would complain we make too much money even though we "earned" it with "hard work". Im sure the FFs in the room wouldn't mind getting paid either based on the severity of the fires they fight, or get a little extra for going to an over abundance of activated alarms!

Jobs want their employees educated, and believe me, the coverage isnt much at all so you can have that back, just give me my "merit based" raises!

Sold us out to the Democrats? The Democrats the ones who want the contributions and such. I think you should read up a little more in a fact based document instead of icantpassacivilservicetest.com!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Fairly negotiated?????? "Dude" YOU need to wake up!

Can you give examples of how my union has not "fairly negotiated"?

civil service unions: allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

Can you explain why my employer takes money out of every one of my paychecks under the title: "medical"?

civil service unions: allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

While I do not have to pay into my "pension", I am paid less than when I was in the private sector and had to pay into my retirement. When I was debating switching jobs the issue was less pay, but more benefits. A hard choice when your single, no children and in your 20's, but I understood that as I got older it would be worth it.

How did we get this pension system? Was it the greedy unions that developed it? We had a city pension system until the 1960s, when the Mayors in NY State determined it would be cheaper for the taxpayers to have one pension system (and they would look good reducing cost), instead of one in every municipality and they convinced the state legislature to develop it.

civil service unions: allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

Interesting way to look at it, I understand it very differently. All FF's are at similar risks of being hurt/killed at an incident, but after figuring out what a firefighter salary should be, the municipalities understand that if they lower the starting salary by up to 50% with a 5 year build up to "top" pay knowing there are still enough people willing to take the job and struggle to make ends meet for those 1st few years. It’s not non-merit, it is what they should have made in the 1st place, but the big bad unions dont have enough power to fight this reduction.

civil service unions: allow workers to further their college education...

My union contract allows all members to "share" in a college funding account. By contract the city must fund $20,000 per year (not per member) to cover the tuition of all union members. At its height that was 181 members sharing $20,000. If 20 of those union members went to college, each was able to get $1,000 toward their annual college education. Now to get this benefit, the union had to give up something and in the last few years more than $10,000 of the fund each year does not get used and is returned to the City's general fund. Over the last 25 years I think about a dozen members have participated and 3 or 4 have gotten degrees.

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

And the tax payers benefit from all of this.

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does: CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension! work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions! PAY for your own education!

We do, we do, we do and while I did benefit from the education, it taught me how to bring over $2.5 million back into my municipality and reducing the cost of property insurance by more than a million annually for the last 14 years. Over the last 25 years $450,000 has been made available to 175 employees, but only about 1/2 has been used. and the return on the investment has been over $16 million.

and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting.

You still have yet to show anyone how "they sold us out"?

I have given you the history, to bad you missed it in your research. Its true, you are ignorant of all the facts and you make a lot of assumptions, that are not true.

I am all for unions promoting themselves and protecting themselves via strenght in numbers, but everything I mentioned is a "gimme, gimme, gimme" complex that's effing up this country, state and county

Then how come, for every gimme, we had to vote on giving something up? Or worst it was taken from us by an arbitrator.

[Bnechis 3,961]

civil service unions: allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

Here is another thought: 25 years ago we did 3,200 calls per year with 187 membrs doing the job. Today its about 9,000 calls with 151 members.

So we are doing 3x the work with 20% fewer workers. There must be some merit in that.

On second thought, its all my unions fault that congress gets a full pension after 1 term with no contribution or full medical.

Its my unions fault that wall street gambled everyones retirement (including mine).

[E58RET 24]

Barry,I couldnt have said it myself! This dude is anti every thing and at best probably could'nt make it in the real world

[helicopper 1,050]

Fairly negotiated??????

"Dude" YOU need to wake up!

civil service unions:

allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

SOME unions have this and some do not. In exchange for this, other things were given up.

allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

Again, some unions contribute and some do not so you're wrong.

allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

Yes, civil service employees receive salary increases as do most private sector employees. Often they do not match cost of living increases and sometimes they're years apart. I'm not sure of the history but most municipalities don't have merit raises because it is too subjective. How do you fairly assess two employees when one is in a busy precinct or firehouse and the other is in a quiet one?

allow workers to further their college education...

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

Not all. I doubt it is even most. I paid for more than 60% of my education received while on the job. My contract provided me with about a 40% reimbursement but doesn't my employer also benefit by my being better prepared to the do my job? Some union members receive more, some receive less. It depends; as it does in the private sector. I have a friend who received 100% tuition reimbursement and had all his books and fees paid for by his employer - in the private sector. Now since his company has government contracts and receives corporate tax breaks who really paid for his education? Hmmmm....

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does:

CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension!

work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions!

PAY for your own education!

For years public employee salaries were far below those in the private sector and nobody in civil service receives year end bonuses, stock options, matching contributions to 401K programs, or other perks so pensions and healthcare helped level the playing field.

and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting.

I am all for unions promoting themselves and protecting themselves via strenght in numbers, but everything I mentioned is a "gimme, gimme, gimme" complex that's effing up this country, state and county

I'm not even going to pretend to understand what you're talking about with this sold you out nonsense. Please cite the unions to which you're referring so we can all assess the credibility of your argument.

Civil service unions don't "allow" their members to get anything. They negotiate for them, they make concessions in one area for another, and they receive them in arbitration after an independent third party assesses the benefits structure and decides they're entitled to them. Do you think civil service unions just walked into the proverbial city hall and said here's what we want and got it?

Politics as usual is what's messing up this country. Raiding well funded pension programs to cover deficits in other areas of the budget contributed to the dramatic shortfalls in some states, not the individual union members' benefits. How about social services? Social services is 2/3 of the budget in my county and how well managed is that? You want to blame unions for the demise of government sustainability but they're a very small part of the problem. How about the state legislatures themselves? They spend millions on mailings and postage to tell me how well they're doing their job when all indications are the contrary.

typical?

of course they're typical!

3/4 of the country believes public unions have to be restructured, 1/4 of the country thinks public unions are perfect the way they are. so, you tell me what typical actually is!

damn ignorance...

Can you cite the study that produced these numbers? I doubt you're going to find that anyone thinks unions are perfect and, yes, things can definitely be restructured but not solely at the workers expense. Without unions we'd very likely have antiquated equipment, inadequate training, and egregious working conditions. That's what unions have fought for throughout history. I'd be very interested to see what unions you're referring to in your "research".

Finally, I'm not sure who you're referring to as ignorant but let's keep these disagreements professional and respectful. Name calling only diminishes your credibility and weakens your argument.

[ex-commish 490]

typical?

of course they're typical!

3/4 of the country believes public unions have to be restructured, 1/4 of the country thinks public unions are perfect the way they are. so, you tell me what typical actually is!

damn ignorance...

While you are most certainly entitled to your opinion you are not making any sense. Before you continue you have been asked by others to show some facts to support your statements especially this one:

"and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting".

What unions are you referring to and in what area?

[FD828 77]

WOW! Nice posting everyone. I was going to reply back but you all hit the nail on the head. So thank you for that. And just for added clarity on my end... I have been on the job since 2004 and I pay for medical, I contribute 6% into my pension (which is on my base pay when I retire), I work hard for the money I earn including taking extra classes like the SCUBA dive class, rope rescue, and elevator rescue classes with no compensation for them, I do get college reimbursement if #1 i pass the class and #2 it has to be in a related field. Oh and far as I know, every job requires that you have to pass a promotional test and go through a interview of some kind before you can be promoted. People spend years studying and buying books trying to get promoted and some never do. So please as everyone has asked, post your "facts" about how unions work because from I am sitting you are wrong, plain and simple.

[x129K 1,393]

EMS'er - your anti-cop and anti-union posts piss me off.

Do you have ANY idea of just how hard our respective municipalities would put the screws to us in the police and fire professions if we didn't have Unions? They do it enough with Union protection!

I would tell you to look at the big picture, but I am sure your vision is obscurred by the Obama sticker on your Prius!

[gamewell45 258]

Fairly negotiated??????

"Dude" YOU need to wake up!

civil service unions:

allow workers to have healthcare without worker contributions...

allow workers to have retirement pensions that again, they don't have to contrubute...

allow workers to have "non-merit" based salary increases, salary increases given for longevity, not effort...

allow workers to further their college education...

ALL at the tax payers expense!!

How about civil service workers do what the rest of the country does:

CONTRIBUTE to your healthcare and pension!

work hard for MERIT BASED raises and promotions!

PAY for your own education!

and BTW, your unions didn't "FIGHT" for those "rights," your unions sold you out to the Democrats for those "rights" and thinking anything else is being ignorant of ALL the facts. Feel free to look up the history of each specific union in this area - i have, and it's disgusting.

I am all for unions promoting themselves and protecting themselves via strenght in numbers, but everything I mentioned is a "gimme, gimme, gimme" complex that's effing up this country, state and county

Sonny boy, you need a dose of the real world because what you've said proves that you have no idea what labor unions are all about and you obviously have no idea of the collective bargaining process. Stop listening to those conservative talk show hosts (many of whom are in unions themselves) who continually bash unions and read about labor unions on the AFL-CIO's website. It's just how it is in the real world. Whether you want to admit it or not, the people in here who are in labor unions are speaking the truth.

http://www.aflcio.org/

[EMSer 15]

EMS'er - your anti-cop and anti-union posts piss me off.

Do you have ANY idea of just how hard our respective municipalities would put the screws to us in the police and fire professions if we didn't have Unions? They do it enough with Union protection!

I would tell you to look at the big picture, but I am sure your vision is obscurred by the Obama sticker on your Prius!

Obama sticker on my prius? what a moron...

Saying I’m anti-cop means all cops are wrong, saying I’m pro-cop means all cops are right. I am neither

I’m also not anti-union, but I do believe public unions do NOT have the same rights as private

I am a Republican/Conservative/Libertarian, all of which are in agreement of fiscal conservatism. Arguing over social issues is not necessarily a priority of mine, hence the libertarianism

Lastly, I do not have the care to prove my points to you. I read various types of news media and I also read the publications from the unions in this area. To answer someone’s question about where the area is, it’s Westchester and NYC. I cannot gather all of the info I’ve read of the years to put on this little forum, but again feel free to research it for yourself. I have many conservative friends in various Labor unions, Civil Service unions, and Electrician unions to name a few in this particular area that have told me specific examples about their unions supporting the Dem’s at all costs.

When’s the last time a union stood behind a Republican?

Unions: Share the wealth…

Dems: Share the wealth…

Hmmmmmmmm….

I have very specific examples of PD Unions in Westchester taking advantage of the public. One example in “X” PD members can take classes at local colleges for free, regardless of the nature of the class and how irrelevant it is to their job. Guess who gets stiffed with the bill??

I don’t expect you people to understand, I really don’t. Like most unions members, you owe pretty much everything you have to your unions; and that’s how the pull you in. I am not mentioning this on here to simply piss people off, although I do know that writing what I have will. You people need to open your eyes a bit more.

For the person that talked about me being single and without kids and you having to do what you got to for your family and children, I respect what you do. I have nothing bad to say about this, you have to do what is best and that is notable; but I wish people on here would be able to call a duck a duck instead of calling a duck whatever their union reps tell them to call it. Some of you on here are reasonably, most of you, well, not so much.

OK, time for work…

[ny10570 745]

Since you're so very well versed in NYC's unions, how did you miss Giuliani's mayoral campaigns and the union support they've received? Bloomy didn;t do too badly either whatever party line he happened to be running on. Absolutely the unions support Democrats. Maybe that has something to do with many Republican ideologies flying directly in the face of union interests.

If you are going to base your politics solely on fiscal matters, nearly impossible by the way since money is what pushes the social agenda, then how could you ever call yourself a conservative republican?? You do not make nearly enough money to benefit from any of their economic policies. Democrats are no friend to your wallet either, but they at least support most union agendas. See, and here we are back at the unions almost universally backing democrats. The right to bargain, workplace safety, pensions, health benefits, etc are all benefits won with the help of democratic legislators.

yes, the unions and the people they represent we all scream "Me me me me me." We take every penny we can get at the bargaining table often fighting protracted fights through the arbitration process and working for years without new contracts. But isn't that the American way?? Isn't that the essence of the American dream to come here and fight for what is yours as best you can? We unionized and did that. Then when cities after years of fiscal irresponsibility come back and say we're broke what did the unions do? They didn't tell the cities to go screw, they asked to sit down at the bargaining table and find a way out of the mess. In yonkers they found concessions and additional funding sources. In Wisconsin they gave up almost everything the governor was asking and delivered a balanced budget WITHOUT HAVING TO GIVE UP BARGAINING. Why then did he take it away? In NYC every agency has met their budget reductions and every union has been meeting with the city to identify cost savings. However unless its a head count reduction Goldsmith doesn't want to hear about it.

So I ask you, how is it the unions and not the politicians that are wrong this time?

Public unions already do not have nearly as many rights as private sector unions. What rights are you referring to?

In your posts you allude to union corruption, and thats a very big issue. However no union has swindled more people out of more money than corporate America. The tech collapse of the 90's was fueled by billions in out right fraud, the savings and loan scandal of the 80's another economic collapse driven by fraud, and today's mortgage crisis a slightly different situation. This time instead of anyone going to jail they all go bonuses. These executives who knew what they were doing was at the very least unsustainable and in many cases out right wrong were actually rewarded for destroying whole companies because they had fairly negotiated contracts that guaranteed them certain compensation. They didn't go back to their investors and renegotiate their retirements. The only changes were restrictions on executive compensation for anyone still owing the fed money. Since the crash bonuses and overall compensation are right back up there yet none of these companies are showing balance sheets to match these increases. I'm just a lowly paramedic with a SUNY education but that math just doesn't add up.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ny10570

[FD828 77]

Not to mention every single contract has been agreed upon by both the union and the ELECTED officials of the municipalities!! Elected by whom??? The tax payers that live there perhaps? So every single item that a union has was fairly negotiated by both sides and voted upon by both sides. You act like the unions are not willing to bend in these hard times. This is the farthest from what is happening.

[EMSer 15]

Thats where the Libertarian comes in lol

I know they're all scum; but sitting around and saying "i accept how things are" is not my style

I also criticize republicans, as well as the Dems; but this topic is mainly focused of the Dems and public unions

While i know the Rep's plan is not what's best for this country, it is the lesser of the two evils.

Did anyone hear Obama's about "SOCIAL CONTRACT" he mentioned last week? Look it up if you're not familiar. It blatantly aligns itself with a communist society

This "contract" is by far worse than anything the Rep's have mentioned to date.

[INIT915 1,119]

Thats where the Libertarian comes in lol

I know they're all scum; but sitting around and saying "i accept how things are" is not my style

I also criticize republicans, as well as the Dems; but this topic is mainly focused of the Dems and public unions

While i know the Rep's plan is not what's best for this country, it is the lesser of the two evils.

Did anyone hear Obama's about "SOCIAL CONTRACT" he mentioned last week? Look it up if you're not familiar. It blatantly aligns itself with a communist society

This "contract" is by far worse than anything the Rep's have mentioned to date.

Don't you mean "Social Compact"? Your command of "facts" continues.

[EMSer 15]

Indeed, my error

[DR104 141]

Unions are irrational and solely support the leftist Democratic platform, even though their union members tend to be people that consider themselves “center-right.”

I support all governments that have objectives to make sure unions are kept in line and do what is best for the union members and not the union itself or the Democratic agenda

well done Oklahoma

Must be one of Glenn Becks soldiers.

[EMSer 15]

I've watched the Glenn Beck Show maybe 5-10 times in my life

Nice try

Edited April 21, 2011 by EMSer

[helicopper 1,050]

Saying I'm anti-cop means all cops are wrong, saying I'm pro-cop means all cops are right. I am neither

I'm also not anti-union, but I do believe public unions do NOT have the same rights as private

I am a Republican/Conservative/Libertarian, all of which are in agreement of fiscal conservatism. Arguing over social issues is not necessarily a priority of mine, hence the libertarianism

Lastly, I do not have the care to prove my points to you. I read various types of news media and I also read the publications from the unions in this area. To answer someone's question about where the area is, it's Westchester and NYC. I cannot gather all of the info I've read of the years to put on this little forum, but again feel free to research it for yourself. I have many conservative friends in various Labor unions, Civil Service unions, and Electrician unions to name a few in this particular area that have told me specific examples about their unions supporting the Dem's at all costs.

I have very specific examples of PD Unions in Westchester taking advantage of the public. One example in "X" PD members can take classes at local colleges for free, regardless of the nature of the class and how irrelevant it is to their job. Guess who gets stiffed with the bill??

I don't expect you people to understand, I really don't. Like most unions members, you owe pretty much everything you have to your unions; and that's how the pull you in. I am not mentioning this on here to simply piss people off, although I do know that writing what I have will. You people need to open your eyes a bit more.

For the person that talked about me being single and without kids and you having to do what you got to for your family and children, I respect what you do. I have nothing bad to say about this, you have to do what is best and that is notable; but I wish people on here would be able to call a duck a duck instead of calling a duck whatever their union reps tell them to call it. Some of you on here are reasonably, most of you, well, not so much.

You continue to make baseless assertions about unions and allegations of corruption without providing anyone with any point of reference to perform their own research. You claim you're getting this from bona fide sources. If you are, post a link so we can all read what you're referencing. It's not that difficult and is done here all the time.

You continue to be condescending and make sweeping generalizations about all different parties, groups, unions, and most importantly members of this forum. If you can't state your case without insulting us, please take your rhetoric elsewhere.

.

If you have specific examples, cite them and let us do our own research and come to our own conclusions. Your vague references to elusive sources doesn't bolster your position.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Thats where the Libertarian comes in lol

I know they're all scum; but sitting around and saying "i accept how things are" is not my style

I also criticize republicans, as well as the Dems; but this topic is mainly focused of the Dems and public unions

While i know the Rep's plan is not what's best for this country, it is the lesser of the two evils.

Did anyone hear Obama's about "SOCIAL CONTRACT" he mentioned last week? Look it up if you're not familiar. It blatantly aligns itself with a communist society

This "contract" is by far worse than anything the Rep's have mentioned to date.

I am not here to argue republican/democrat with you but I do have a question.

In what way does a social contract/compact align itself with a communist society? How is it worse than anything else mentioned to date?

In a nutshell if you are not familiar, a social contract/compact was a concept initially described by french enlightenment thinker Jean-Jacques Rousseau in which he argued that government had an obligation to protect its citizens, thus a social contract. If you want to live here, you have to agree with our rules and we will protect you using them.

If you read the Preamble to the US Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It is the entire idea of a social contract.

If you read it carefully it has some interesting statements: provide for the common defense; promote welfare; secure our posterity....

I guess they must have been communists too....

[DR104 141]

I've watched the Glenn Beck Show maybe 5-10 times in my life

Nice try

5-10 more times then me!!!

[EMSer 15]

I am not here to argue republican/democrat with you but I do have a question.

In what way does a social contract/compact align itself with a communist society? How is it worse than anything else mentioned to date?

In a nutshell if you are not familiar, a social contract/compact was a concept initially described by french enlightenment thinker Jean-Jacques Rousseau in which he argued that government had an obligation to protect its citizens, thus a social contract. If you want to live here, you have to agree with our rules and we will protect you using them.

If you read the Preamble to the US Constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It is the entire idea of a social contract.

If you read it carefully it has some interesting statements: provide for the common defense; promote welfare; secure our posterity....

I guess they must have been communists too....

Eh, really a "Nanny State"

I am familiar with Rousseau, now read up on his good friend and critic David Hume and his essay "Of Civil Liberty" published in 1742

The Constitution is our "original contract"

Obama wants to change its objectives, that’s the concern. Even though we have the rights to change or even abolish our own gov., many Americans don't want to change it to a socialist contract/compact, but yet many Americans do.

[lad12derff 283]

Obama sticker on my prius? what a moron...

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OK, time for work…

Not me, my union got me today off

[EMSer 15]

Not me, my union got me today off

That’s fascinating. How much in union dues did this day off cost you?

Few hundred...few thousand over the years?

and helicopper, I have very specific examples from very specific agencies. I am being vague because forum rules forbid me to "bash" another agency or individual. Lets just say a "certain PD" allows it's officers to go to ANY class at SUNY Purchase or Manhattanville for any course they want (even if it's to get another degree, so they can get another job and clearly has NOTHING to do with their PD job BUT it's in their UNION CONTRACT that they may do so)

Does that sounds like a fair negotiation of public funds and public trust?

I think not

Edited April 21, 2011 by EMSer