Oklahoma Votes To Eliminate Collective Bargaining Rights For Some Public Service Employees

[EMSer 15]

5-10 more times then me!!!

in order to dislike you must know them to make it reasonable

yes, I’ve watched him, so what?

I think he's very smart, but disagree with his approach

Where do you get your news from, Katie Couric? The Z100 Morning Zoo? NPR? Scott and Todd? Or the worst of them all - LoHud??

Please, enlighten me.

[ny10570 745]

Anyone who hasn't watched Glen Beck doesn't know what they're missing out on. I watch it at least weekly and am truly disappointed he will not be on the air for the coming election. Its a regular broadcast of a man going insane. Blows away any reality programing.

EMSer, if its factual you can post it. So which agency has this sweet heart deal? If the biggest evil you can come up with is a few thousand a year in higher education I'll happily go toe to toe with examples of Conservatives supporting, requesting, and enjoying classically liberal ideals that just so happen to benefit them. I'll even spot you some union corruption and bid rigging cases in the last few years that have cost hundreds of thousands if you need some help.

Obama as liberal as he is, is not pushing for a communist or even a socialist state, he is not trying to cripple the upper class, and he is not going to destroy the country. You can't get much more nanny state than FDR, but his programs were extended by Eisenhower. Then LBJ comes in with more social reforms and some sweeping civil rights legislation, and wouldn't you know Nixon followed him up by adding to social security with a lil deficit spending. He also added OSHA, the EPA, and a few other federal oversight agencies.

No sitting president can place any meaningful cuts upon medicare or social security and hope to return to office. Old people vote too much. Hell, for all his talk Bush did nothing to curb the growth of medicare. Any attempt was crippled by partisan politics and resulted in more shuffling of numbers. Obamacare has huge potential if it can get preventative healthcare to more people. Get sick enough or hurt badly enough and everyone eventually ends up on the government dole. If you can keep them healthy enough to work you can keep them earning. Republicans have stopped arguing that it will save the country money, they're focusing on the cost to implement and the fed butting into states rights. But I thought this was about the budget? They're all agenda driven. Republican or Democrat, they all have someone behind them pulling the strings. So when you say that the unions are s*** because they're in bed with the democrats you sound like an idiot. The democrats support the unions and the republicans support big business. The middle class and small business are universally paraded around as the cause du jour but when the legislation is written they're the one's left out.

[gamewell45 258]

That's fascinating. How much in union dues did this day off cost you?

Few hundred...few thousand over the years?

How much he paid is irrelevent; the fact is that he knows what his terms and conditions of employment are; that he knows what his benefits package will look like knowing that the employer cannot just decide to "change" things in midstream; he know's what his base level of pay and how much of a raise he'll get every year so he can financially plan for down the road; he know's if there is going to be a layoff, there is a system in place which determines who is laid off and how; he knows that if an issue comes up in the workplace, there is a mechanism to address it up to and including arbitration if the union and employer cannot agree on a resolution; he knows if he's hurt in the line of duty that he'll have his salary and medical coverage continued according to the terms of the labor agreement; he knows that when he has reached retirement age he'll be able to retire with a living wage so he won't have to depend soley on social security to live off of for the rest of his life.....I could go on, but maybe you see the big picture. You on the other hand most likely work non-union and as such have no guarantees; just taxes and death.

I know your kind of young yet and have a long way to go in your career(s) but try to be open minded rather then condeming something you really have no idea about.

Read up on the history of the labor movement in this country and the contributions they have made and are continuing to make. You might actually change your position to one of appreciation for what the labor movement has done for this country and will continue to do.

Edited April 21, 2011 by gamewell45

[helicopper 1,050]

and helicopper, I have very specific examples from very specific agencies. I am being vague because forum rules forbid me to "bash" another agency or individual. Lets just say a "certain PD" allows it's officers to go to ANY class at SUNY Purchase or Manhattanville for any course they want (even if it's to get another degree, so they can get another job and clearly has NOTHING to do with their PD job BUT it's in their UNION CONTRACT that they may do so)

Does that sounds like a fair negotiation of public funds and public trust?

I think not

In this particular example you're referring to the Harrison PD and discussing this is not bashing. It was published in the Journal News in September 2010 and is a matter of public record. The issue was courses taken by a single officer not related at all to his employment. One officer, one year out of how many for how long? How about all the officers who got bachelor's or graduate degrees and use them in their service to their town? You're condemning all tuition reimbursement or educational programs because of the conduct of a single officer. Sounds like you're saying one bad apple spoils the bunch and that simply isn't true.

How much money is spent by Harrison on college courses for employees? I doubt they're paying full-price for courses at colleges located in their town. More than likely the town receives substantially discounted rates and the college gets a tax deduction for providing them the opportunity. The net result is a negligible cost to the taxpayer so even if a phys ed or dance class is taken it isn't an abuse of public funds or breach of the public trust.

Instead of directing your animosity at hard-working public employees, why don't you rally against the free education, free cable TV, free "gym membership", free medical and dental care being provided to inmates who are receving those perks because they broke the law. Vastly different than union members getting education stipends, discounts, or reimbursement from their employers.

[EMSer 15]

I actually didn't even realize that was published

Although this one officer may have been singled out, what I have mentioned is in the contracts of many officers at that dept, although new hires are no longer entitled to those "benefits"

[INIT915 1,119]

I actually didn't even realize that was published

Although this one officer may have been singled out, what I have mentioned is in the contracts of many officers at that dept, although new hires are no longer entitled to those "benefits"

Are you familiar with the many private sector companies who provide educational benefits that far exceed any public sector employees. It has long been widely accepted that an educated workforce is a more productive workforce. When I finished graduate school, there was a FD Lt. in my program. His city (here int he Hudson Valley) paid $12,000 for him to obtain his graduate degree. The city then utilized him and was able to dismiss a six-figure private contractor who had been doing work he was now capable of doing for free. Such personnel moves are called investments.

Care to disclose the company you work for? I'd be interested to see how much success they have had in not investing in their employees...

My brother works in the private sector. His company paid 100% of his tuition for both his MBA and his law degree at a rather expensive Boston area college. That was over $250,000 in free money. Many, many, many private companies do that. No public sector employees have anything like that.

And the Harrison case you discuss, as Chris mentioned, was widely reported on at the time. That officers degree was in physical education, which arguably has a direct correlation to law enforcement work.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And the Harrison case you discuss, as Chris mentioned, was widely reported on at the time. That officers degree was in physical education, which arguably has a direct correlation to law enforcement work.

So EMSer believes that the union is at fault for this? Or is it the employee at fault? I would bet that the union sat down with the Mayor and negociated a contract that both side thought was fair and included an education clause (because everyone thought it was a good idea). Did anyone consider that some one might get a degree that would have little value to the community (like ancient mongolian culture or basket weaving)? I guess not. Did the Union take advantage of the town with this? or did the Mayor not consider that their job was to investigate what other communities have allowed and include those safeties in the contract. Most contracts, include a requirement that the degree must be job related.

[antiquefirelt 994]

That’s fascinating. How much in union dues did this day off cost you?

Few hundred...few thousand over the years?

and helicopper, I have very specific examples from very specific agencies. I am being vague because forum rules forbid me to "bash" another agency or individual. Lets just say a "certain PD" allows it's officers to go to ANY class at SUNY Purchase or Manhattanville for any course they want (even if it's to get another degree, so they can get another job and clearly has NOTHING to do with their PD job BUT it's in their UNION CONTRACT that they may do so)

Does that sounds like a fair negotiation of public funds and public trust?

I think not

How about citing some relevant corruption? Any benefit a union member takes as part of their contract was in fact agreed to by management. It sounds to me like you're misdirecting your anger on the Union, when in fact you should hold your elected officials accountable for agreeing to contractual obligations you do not support. But since it's easier to sit on the couch than it is to get involved in local politics, I'm betting you're just as happy complaining by computer, and not really interested in helping.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I've watched the Glenn Beck Show maybe 5-10 times in my life

Nice try

Good thing you never listened to his morning zoo show on KC-101 up here in CT when he was on the radio, sucked just as bad.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Eh, really a "Nanny State"

I am familiar with Rousseau, now read up on his good friend and critic David Hume and his essay "Of Civil Liberty" published in 1742

The Constitution is our "original contract"

Obama wants to change its objectives, that’s the concern. Even though we have the rights to change or even abolish our own gov., many Americans don't want to change it to a socialist contract/compact, but yet many Americans do.

Not to re-stir a hornets nest but do you mean by "nanny state"? Additionally, how it is what is being proposed a socialist contract/compact?

You also have contradicted yourself, what is it, many people want it changed or many people want it left the same? What is many? You cant have a majority of both, its one or the either side?

[BFD1054 1,552]

EMSer...

I'd love to photocopy one of my pay stubs to show you my weekly deductions. However, i am sure that you would then b**** and moan that i am paid too much and that of course is my Union's fault right?

All of the members who have posted before me have hit the nail on the head repeatedly. You still fail to produce facts and many of your statements are baseless.

Many Union jobs such as Police, Fire and DPW were waaaay under-paid for years. These were jobs that nobody wanted. So, many people went to work for companies such as IBM where they made good money. Through the years, the Unions which you bash, worked hard to get better compensation for its members. All of a sudden, these jobs became more appealing. Now the people that rode their high horse all the way to the bank for all those years are crying that us Union members are over-paid and over-compensated.

Look, you're more than entitled to your opinion. I actually enjoy the fact that you continue to go back and forth with the other members who reply to your posts. Unfortunately, as most have said, you still fail to produce legitimate factual information to back up your statements.

Edited April 23, 2011 by BFD1054

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Unions are irrational and solely support the leftist Democratic platform, even though their union members tend to be people that consider themselves “center-right.”

I support all governments that have objectives to make sure unions are kept in line and do what is best for the union members and not the union itself or the Democratic agenda

well done Oklahoma

LOL. My union backs those who show the most support for pro labor initiatives, it doesn't mean that I support the same persons if they majority of their stances don't reflect mine.

You also make your own argument so get on one side or the other. You say well done Oklahoma yet you say you support all governments who have objectives to keep unions in line and do what is best for union members. What do you think collective bargaining does? It is designed to protect both parties, to represent the government (the people) and the union (the employees) to make a fair agreement that one doesn't have a hold above the other.

Not sure what you do for a living...but EMS could do much better for itself if it wasn't loaded with so many privates and also had a stronger union to represent them.

I am a union public servant and I am far from the enemy. The waste that goes on around those who actually provide a service is ridiculous and last time I check I pay all the taxes the rest of NY state people do as well. I have done and seen things that would make people s*** their pants, throw up, pass out or wet themselves and do it because they can't or won't. Not to mention I along with many of my colleagues are college educated and oh by average emergency services personnel have a life expectancy 5 to 10 years less then someone born the same time as them. So I won't apologize for my pension which is miniscule compared to what some of the salaries of the "managers" of municipalities and the state are that do jack crap for anyone their whole lives but spew rhetoric.

And for the record I am center right..and I'm done with the republican party, the dummycrats, the loonitarians, tea party, green party or any party. There is a whole slew of what nixon once referred to as the silent majority who wouldn't be so silent if a true candidate could rise..problem is they are all the same no matter what party...in it for themselves, their buddies and lobbyist. The average person who could do a job can't make it because of the system and how it works.

So go screw yourselves Oklahoma...you'll get yours in the end too.