Pelham Working Fire 4-19-11 (Discussion)

[x635 4,066]

LoHud.com story: http://www.lohud.com/article/20110419/NEWS02/104190374/Smoky-fire-damages-cluttered-Pelham-home?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

From the photo, it looks like New Rochelle Ladder 12's stick was up, but Pelham Ladder 2 which also had the front of the building was still in it's bed? Wonder if this had anything to do with staffing levels in Pelham, not having enough firefighters first due to worry about getting the aerial up- however the driver got a good spot to get it up. Excellent use of ground ladders from what I could see.

It may not have even been needed, but there's a lot of department's that go by the theory of getting as many aerials as you can on the building (i.e. Boston)

Also looks like it was "Colliers Mansion" conditions.

This comment is based on my interpetation of the photo and other knowledge, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I am not trying to "Monday morning quarterback", but I just strongly feel this highlights why Pelham needs more then 3 firefighters on a shift.

[lad12derff 283]

I would definitely think that staffing is the reason why the Pelham stick was not raised. The fact that 2 guys arrive ( I think that's the # )at a job makes you decide your priorities. #1 forcible entry for the engine company, #2 search of the fire floor for victims and locate the fire for the engine company, #3 search above the fire for victims and vent, and #4 open up. Does not leave a lot of time for the LCC to stick the house. In New Rochelle our assignments are as follows for PD's and multi dwelling ( non high rise ) First due truck, officer and jump seat ff force entry search fire floor, first due chauffeur does a walk around looking for things the IC may need to know ( fire location from outside and victims hanging out windows or who have already jumped ) Second due truck, officer and jump seat ff go to the floor above and search while the second due chauffeur hooks up with the first due chauffeur and ladders the building with ground ladders or the sticks. Third due if needed picks up the slack, opening up, more ground ladders, secondary searches. Pelham is up against it as soon as the bells go off and truly have to "do more with less".

[Bnechis 3,961]

I would definitely think that staffing is the reason why the Pelham stick was not raised. The fact that 2 guys arrive ( I think that's the # )at a job makes you decide your priorities........ Pelham is up against it as soon as the bells go off and truly have to "do more with less".

PFD runs with 1 FF on the ladder and 1FF/1 Lt on the engine. And its "do more with nothing". The Pelham Village Board has been debating cutting the manning from 3 on a shift to 2.

[ajsbear 11]

It's all about taxes and the all mighty dollar. adding 1 man per shift is actually adding 4 men to the department. Add 1 per rig and you get the drift. Now figure each at a salary, benefits plus training costs etc. No one wants to see a raise in taxes. Its simple. Raise taxes and you will get a revolt. People are having trouble paying the bills already. No tell them their tax bill is going up $500 a year. Look at the other costs, gas, heating, food, insurance, health care and its never ending. My school district is looking for a 2 3/4% raise. I don't think that will pass unanimously. I just filled my gas tank. Only a 18 gallon tank and it was $70. I just cut channels out on cable and now I am looking at cutting my cell costs as well. Everyone is looking to save money so as bad as it is, you're not going to see manning go up soon. b**** all you want, no town, village or city official will listen.

[dools16 1]

PFD runs with 1 FF on the ladder and 1FF/1 Lt on the engine. And its "do more with nothing". The Pelham Village Board has been debating cutting the manning from 3 on a shift to 2.

Barry, Pelham and Pelham Manor have been doing more with nothing forever and if what you say is true, it won't be changing anytime soon.

[ny10570 745]

You either do less with less or you do your job poorly. No matter how dedicated the members are they're not going to be able to do more. As Capt Nechis has pointed out again and again, in most cases improvements in ISO rating result in savings greater than the tax increase. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like Pelham is small enough where they could realize a significant improvement in fire protection for very little cost by merging with New Rochelle. So taxes aren't the issue. Why aren't people more vocal on this? The firefighters are rolling the dice with their lives and residents are essentially writing off their property as lost because they will not/ can not give their fire dept the money to do the job.

[ems-buff 81]

We all know, the staffing at pelham is dangerously low. Do we have a count on how many volunteers came out? How many alarms did it go to, to have such a huge m/a respones? Was it a progress alarm respones because of the lack of man power, or due to the progression of fire, or both? All, and all, great work by both pelhams (who do more with less, all day, every day) New Rochelle, Greenville, Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, Larchmont, and Empress EMS

[Bnechis 3,961]

As Capt Nechis has pointed out again and again, in most cases improvements in ISO rating result in savings greater than the tax increase. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like Pelham is small enough where they could realize a significant improvement in fire protection for very little cost by merging with New Rochelle. So taxes aren't the issue. Why aren't people more vocal on this? The firefighters are rolling the dice with their lives and residents are essentially writing off their property as lost because they will not/ can not give their fire dept the money to do the job.

Lets throw another wrinkle into this. 1st its not that Pelham will not provide additional taxes, in reality they can't. Because the population is so small, the per capita costs to improve are never going to happen. The real issue for Pelham, Pelham Manor and any other small community FD or understaffed FD (career, combo or vol.) is ISO's plan to change the rating system this year.

Under the new plan, any dept that responds to fire calls with fewer than 6 firefighters (2 in / 2 out, MPO & IC) will automatically become an ISO 9.

What does this mean for Pelham?

Annual insurance premiums for commercial and residential properties in Pelham is approximately $5.1 million. In Pelham Manor the premiums are approximately $5.9 million. Combined, the property owners in Pelham and Pelham Manor pay roughly $11 million per year in premiums.

Both PFD & PMFD are ISO PPC 4's. If the 2 depts do not restructure the way the respond to fire so the have at least 4 interior qulified members + an MPO & IC, Both villages will see the ISO change them to 9 and the insurance premiums will go up by 40% per year. Thats a combined increas of $4.4 MILLION.

This increase is more than the current combined budget of the 2 fire departments.

Meanwhile the Pelham Village Mayor and Board are considering reducing manning.

I suspect nothing will change until the ISO rating does and then the finger pointing at village hall will begin.

[27east 19]

Lets throw another wrinkle into this. 1st its not that Pelham will not provide additional taxes, in reality they can't. Because the population is so small, the per capita costs to improve are never going to happen. The real issue for Pelham, Pelham Manor and any other small community FD or understaffed FD (career, combo or vol.) is ISO's plan to change the rating system this year.

Under the new plan, any dept that responds to fire calls with fewer than 6 firefighters (2 in / 2 out, MPO & IC) will automatically become an ISO 9.

What does this mean for Pelham?

Annual insurance premiums for commercial and residential properties in Pelham is approximately $5.1 million. In Pelham Manor the premiums are approximately $5.9 million. Combined, the property owners in Pelham and Pelham Manor pay roughly $11 million per year in premiums.

Both PFD & PMFD are ISO PPC 4's. If the 2 depts do not restructure the way the respond to fire so the have at least 4 interior qulified members + an MPO & IC, Both villages will see the ISO change them to 9 and the insurance premiums will go up by 40% per year. Thats a combined increas of $4.4 MILLION.

This increase is more than the current combined budget of the 2 fire departments.

Meanwhile the Pelham Village Mayor and Board are considering reducing manning.

I suspect nothing will change until the ISO rating does and then the finger pointing at village hall will begin.

I agree, but how many people: A) know what ISO rating is, and B ) will know who to blame.

Edited April 20, 2011 by 27east

[gpeifer 89]

You either do less with less or you do your job poorly. No matter how dedicated the members are they're not going to be able to do more. As Capt Nechis has pointed out again and again, in most cases improvements in ISO rating result in savings greater than the tax increase. I don't know the numbers, but it seems like Pelham is small enough where they could realize a significant improvement in fire protection for very little cost by merging with New Rochelle. So taxes aren't the issue. Why aren't people more vocal on this? The firefighters are rolling the dice with their lives and residents are essentially writing off their property as lost because they will not/ can not give their fire dept the money to do the job.

Because they want to say "we have a paid fire department". Their approach is why pay when we can everyone else respond. Mutual aid is for extreme circumstances..not first due assignments.

[Alpinerunner 61]

Lets throw another wrinkle into this. 1st its not that Pelham will not provide additional taxes, in reality they can't. Because the population is so small, the per capita costs to improve are never going to happen. The real issue for Pelham, Pelham Manor and any other small community FD or understaffed FD (career, combo or vol.) is ISO's plan to change the rating system this year.

Under the new plan, any dept that responds to fire calls with fewer than 6 firefighters (2 in / 2 out, MPO & IC) will automatically become an ISO 9.

What does this mean for Pelham?

Annual insurance premiums for commercial and residential properties in Pelham is approximately $5.1 million. In Pelham Manor the premiums are approximately $5.9 million. Combined, the property owners in Pelham and Pelham Manor pay roughly $11 million per year in premiums.

Both PFD & PMFD are ISO PPC 4's. If the 2 depts do not restructure the way the respond to fire so the have at least 4 interior qulified members + an MPO & IC, Both villages will see the ISO change them to 9 and the insurance premiums will go up by 40% per year. Thats a combined increas of $4.4 MILLION.

This increase is more than the current combined budget of the 2 fire departments.

Meanwhile the Pelham Village Mayor and Board are considering reducing manning.

I suspect nothing will change until the ISO rating does and then the finger pointing at village hall will begin.

VERY interesting info!! My question is how do they count the 6? I assume they aren't requiring this on the initial engine. But does Pelham not send the 6 on the initial BOX?

Edited April 20, 2011 by Alpinerunner

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree, but how many people: A) know what ISO rating is, and B ) will know who to blame.

A. Not many, but if you get a 40% rate increase, in 1 year you might ask.

B. Do you think the Union (who is fighting to maintain jobs) will not put this in the local paper? They have already send mailings to all the property owners about what is going on.

[buff.boy 4]

VERY interesting info!! My question is how do they count the 6? I assume they aren't requiring this on the initial engine. But does Pelham not send the 6 on the initial BOX?

Pelham is lucky if they send 4. For that matter Pelham Manor is lucky too if they send 4. They both run 3 per tour 1 officer and 2 FF's. Both departments have 16 guys total now that Pelham added 1. That leaves room for vacation and murphy days. I think Pelham runs with 2 on the engine and 1 on the ladder and I think Pelham Manor runs 1 on each engine and 1 on the tower ladder. Together they would meet the new criteria for ISO. Its just to bad that both Villages Boards are stubborn and worry about their egos and their "STATUS". The boards should know about the ISO change since its bin out for awhile. It will be interesting to see. Do more with nothing is so true for these brothers. Stay safe.

[Bnechis 3,961]

VERY interesting info!! My question is how do they count the 6? I assume they aren't requiring this on the initial engine. But does Pelham not send the 6 on the initial BOX?

In Volunteer & Combo depts they count the 6 by looking at the alarm records for who showed up. For career depts they look at the roster and dispatch policy to determine what is dispatched.

Pelham has 2 ff's / 1 Lt on duty. The chief if available and they average only 1 volunteer per response. thats 5 at best (and the volunteer is most not likely interior trained, is not an MPO or IC so they do not count as 1 of the 6 anyway).