Fire Dept Liability

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Well I will just ask questions and here and not state or site any legal code or law.

I first have to ask are we talking about criminal liability or civil liability in this discussion? if it is civil, well anyone can sue anyone at any time, the question becomes do you spend the money to fight it or let the insurance companies just settle?

The original premise of this thread revolved around civil liability. While, in common terms, you can sue anyone for anything, there is more to it then that. Each state (and the federal courts) do have some predefined actionable causes which you must relate your claims to. Essentially, the topic of this thread would be limited to state court action, as federal court actions must be linked to constitutional violations. The vast majority of federal suits are brought under USC Title 41, Chapter 21, Subd. I, Section 1983. State court claims do not have to be constitutional in nature, they can be for almost anything, and I emphasize almost. Everything from product liability torts to the more common personal injury claims. And again, these claims vary by state.

Now, not to get off on a tangent, but if we tweaked the original posters question just a bit, and added a few new elements, we could potentially discuss the criminal liability. See NYS Penal Law Section 145.00 and 145.00. To make that case, the hole in the roof would have had to have been made with intent or recklessness to damage property, and with no possible legitimacy. That would be a nearly impossible argument to make on a fire scene. One could argue about the "need" for that particular ventilation, but the situation has an ironclad built-in affirmative defense.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

That's a bit too general Tom... it would depend how the call was dispatched and what orders the member was given. Were they supposed to be in offensive or defensive mode? The way you state 'goes rummaging through' makes it sound more like they were freelancing or at least acting beyond the scope of their orders (and/or scope of training)... in which case I can't see any liability attaching to IC or SO. I don't recall the 'rummaging' technique being part of hazmat tech training... and I don't recall getting up close and personal with a known hazmat situation being part of defensive mode hazmat ops training...

In general though yes, you do have a point... if an IC orders a member to do something they *know or should have known* is beyond their training or qualification, that sounds to me like something for which they could well be liable.

Mike

Actually Mike I think its right on point and you basically made my case again. At the hazardous materials operation level which the majority of departments in westchester fall under you are only allowed to perform defensive operations hence you are not suppose to come into contact with the material. If it was done directly in front of the IC and nothing was said...is that still freelancing? To me the IC let it occur and if the safety officer right there or in a case I saw the "safety officer" was the one who opened the bag to look inside then its a problem and you should be held liable for actions right in front of you that you know are completely wrong. Especially when a hazmat team has been requested.

[abaduck 123]

Actually Mike I think its right on point and you basically made my case again. At the hazardous materials operation level which the majority of departments in westchester fall under you are only allowed to perform defensive operations hence you are not suppose to come into contact with the material. If it was done directly in front of the IC and nothing was said...is that still freelancing? To me the IC let it occur and if the safety officer right there or in a case I saw the "safety officer" was the one who opened the bag to look inside then its a problem and you should be held liable for actions right in front of you that you know are completely wrong. Especially when a hazmat team has been requested.

Ahhh now the slightly more specific example I can agree 100% with. I had in mind more a situation where, for instance, a member was instructed to perform a quick primary search for civilians, nothing else, and get the hell out. If they then went rummaging in a bag... did they expect to find a casualty there?! That's freelancing and disobeying specific orders; I can't see how the officer who gave the order and/or the IC running the incident can be liable for that.

The scenario you describe is worse than freelancing, IMHO, it's freelancing with the implied consent of the IC. How can an IC expect to maintain authority and accountability if they let that happen? I'm bloody sure any of my Chiefs would have pulled me up sharply if they had seen me doing such a thing. I've seen a member at an incident head towards the rear of the structure. Chief sees this and calls them back... 'where he hell were you going?'... 'I thought I should do a 360'.... 'good thought, but did I order you to do it? No? Then stay right here...'.

Yes, in your scenario, IMHO they should be held liable, and I can see how I made your case Would the law hold them liable? I dunno, I'm a fireman not a lawyer.

Mike