Anger Over Missed Calculation On Tarrytown Riverside Hose Engine

[FF402 133]

Anger Over Missed Calculation On Riverside Hose Engine

Members of the board became irate on Wednesday when it was revealed that a new fire engine for Riverside Hose Company does not fit into its firehouse.

More: http://tarrytown.patch.com/articles/tarrytown-board-of-trustees-roundup-4132011

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I saw a photo posted on FB that showed negative clearance (I.e. the rig was too high for the door) but by literally an inch if that.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I saw a photo posted on FB that showed negative clearance (I.e. the rig was too high for the door) but by literally an inch if that.

I saw the same photo that you are referring to (I assume it was the same photo). It sure did appear to only be about an inch or so two high. Still, big glitch in the planning. C'mon guys!

On a side note, the new Engine looks beautiful. Best of luck with the new rig!

Edited April 14, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[PEMO3 523]

Wonder if it is cheaper to just raise the door instead of redo the apron and bay floor. Sounds like over kill.

[gamewell45 258]

More: http://tarrytown.pat...roundup-4132011

Try lowering the air pressure in the tires.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

NOT in the contract and specs to fit in that firehouse on that street with that ramp in snow, ice or the forth of July,who screwed up the village with all that bulls#$t last year or the F.D. common guys you wonder why. P. S. did East-West Coast have anything to do with the specs

[MP134 5]

East West Fire was the consultant on the job. The article states that they reviewed the specs and all bids. The Board of Trustees is placing the blame squarely on them.

Here's the article, starts right under the heading of Work Session:

Link:

Edited April 14, 2011 by MP134

[x635 4,066]

I asked this months ago, when the bid awarding was conterversial. I wondered because the E-One they had was a lot lower then other engines.

The new upcoming RIVERSIDE HOSE Crimson Engine, how is it going to fit into the current Riverside Hose firehouse??

From what I understood, the Village left the fire company out of the final bid process. The Seagrave they had wanted had been measured and did fit into the firehouse.

However, this isn't an underheard of issue. Boston recently had some apparatus delivered, and they did not fit into the firehouses they were assigned to. So they had to swap around apparatus. Unforunately, I don't think Tarrytown has that luxury.

When I was in Hartsdale, Engine 170 was designed due to the steep ramp and tight fit. It literally had about an inch clearance everywhere around the door. The bay was actually at an angle, so you had to account for that, too.

You can see what the apparatus bays in the firehouse were designed for, and what's in there nowadays:

Ardsley actually had to design Engine 164 and Engine 165 around the firehouse limitations. I remember when Engine 165 was being spec'd, Chief Coulehan and Chet Garrison (the Saulsbury rep at the time) took a ton of measurments:

[chief10 1]

Wonder if it is cheaper to just raise the door instead of redo the apron and bay floor. Sounds like over kill.

Wonder if it would be cheaper now if the Village had let them keep the Seagrave they wanted? Cost to fix the firehouse, cost for the consulting firm.

[Engine 80 16]

yes east west did,we stated and made it very clear that there was a 5 degree angle of departure in and out of the station.as we mentioned back in 2007.

the garage door was raised and widened to its max back in the late 80,s to fit the e one pumper,we have the oldest and smallest station in town.no room to grow,

[Tanker 10eng 140]

I hope the apparatus consultants are going to give back their fee to help cover the repairs needed to the firehouse .... Its time someone be held accountable for their actions...

[gpdexplorer 46]

Word on the street is when members pointed out the specs for the truck would not fit, they were told "we will make it fit." The men at Riverside put countless hours into specing a truck that would fit, but that was not good enough for the village. The Village hired a consultant that would not listen to the senior members who said the height of the truck would be a major issue due to the grade of the apron. The apparatus manufacturer was also told all communications had to go through the comsultant and the village, not the FD.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Does anyone know if this height restriction was written into the spec? If so, I would say the blame would fall on the manufacturer, not the consultant.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Does anyone know if this height restriction was written into the spec? If so, I would say the blame would fall on the manufacturer, not the consultant.

Maybe so, but bottom line, they were brought in to assist in specing out the truck, they were paid to do a task, and it failed.... did they mention in their " report " that there might be an issue with fitting in the firehouse... if your a professional, then act like one, stand behind your work, give back the fee....

my opinion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does anyone know if this height restriction was written into the spec? If so, I would say the blame would fall on the manufacturer, not the consultant.

Maybe so, but bottom line, they were brought in to assist in specing out the truck, they were paid to do a task, and it failed.... did they mention in their " report " that there might be an issue with fitting in the firehouse... if your a professional, then act like one, stand behind your work, give back the fee....my opinion.

How about before you convict them, we learn the facts. I have seen many specs that had a requirement that the vehicle must fit into a specific station, including ones written by them. And Have seen a number of reasons why a rig didn't fit; Spec was wrong, building measurement was wrong, rig was built taller than spec, dept. changed/added something during construction, etc.

Wonder if it would be cheaper now if the Village had let them keep the Seagrave they wanted? Cost to fix the firehouse, cost for the consulting firm.

You mean the seagrave they rigged the bid to try and get? Having reviewed that spec it was clear that only one dealer could bid on that spec. And the NYS Comptroller says thats illegal. You can purchase from a sole source but their are parameters, that they did not meet.

It took a lot of political courage for the board to follow the law.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Political courage maybe so..but now they are the ones that have pie on their faces. Espeiclally if the voices of the FD went unheard or were disregarded.

[PEMO3 523]

How about before you convict them, we learn the facts. I have seen many specs that had a requirement that the vehicle must fit into a specific station, including ones written by them. And Have seen a number of reasons why a rig didn't fit; Spec was wrong, building measurement was wrong, rig was built taller than spec, dept. changed/added something during construction, etc.

On question pops out at me. Did the consultants do their own physical measurements or were the measurements given to them? If I were a consultant who had my firms name and reputation hanging on a job I would do my own. What is to say the 5 degree approach was "looks like 5 degrees" and not actually 8 degrees or the door height was the frame height and not the clearance height. Just a few thoughts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Political courage maybe so..but now they are the ones that have pie on their faces. Espeiclally if the voices of the FD went unheard or were disregarded.

Its very hard to have a credible voice in round #2, if in round #1 you advicate breaking state law to get what you want. Particularly since the issue in round #1 did not have anything to do with vehicle size.

And since we do not know the facts as to who is at fault: The FD, The Consultants, the village, the dealer or the manufacturer, its a little early to determine who has pie on their faces.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Bnechis

[smwells 7]

Sounds like the new engine will be parked under a tarp outside for the forseeable future, under this matter gets resolved..

IMO, I agree with Bnechis, if your name is showing up on the report recommending this engine, then your own measurements better be in it. (If they were, then the consultant missed the boat, and owes more than just fees)

[firemoose827 324]

They make those tape measures for dummies, with the incriments spelled out for you. Maybe the department should buy one and send it to the firm as a gift?

I hope they can get it resolved before the truck is too damaged from the elements, or even worse, vandals. Does anyone know where the truck is being stored for now?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Its very hard to have a credible voice in round #2, if in round #1 you advicate breaking state law to get what you want. Particularly since the issue in round #1 did not have anything to do with vehicle size.

And since we do not know the facts as to who is at fault: The FD, The Consultants, the village, the dealer or the manufacturer, its a little early to determine who has pie on their faces.

Pretty harsh statements "rigged a bid" (in another prior post), "advicate breaking state law".

I thought the Company from day 1 stated you needed to be very careful with the size of the rig?

Whats done is done, and to the taxpayers it looks like the village took control and screwed it up.

[mstrang1 213]

Talking to a coworker about this, he said they should have put in their bid/contract that the rig would be accepted upon it fitting in the building. A department that he was formerly associated with had this with every rig they purchased. He said it would only be accepted once it was in the building. You do not have to accept delivery of a rig right away. Stamford found that their new rescue from HME was leaking water right onto the electrical panel. It was noticed prior to being accepted and was fixed by the manufacturer (or dealer, I forget), at their expense. This involved it being driven back to the plant in Michigan(or somewhere in the midwest). The downside is SFRD got a rescue with 3 times the amount of miles on it that it should have had, but it was done "right".

[SECTMB 612]

Yada Yada Yada, How many changes in apparatus need to take place before the firehouse gets replaced? If the Village had to make structural changes in the 80's for the E-one by maxing out the door height did it not occur then that some time in the next, oh 20 or 30 years, some consideration might be given to replacing an aging firehouse, maybe consolidating a few of the single company old firehouses into one new. modern structure.

This problem is all over 'lower' Westchester where we are trying to put 21st century apparatus into firehouses built for horse drawn apparatus. Time for villages and towns to consider consolidating some of these old firehouses like Ossining did a few years ago and build some stations for the future.

Remember some years back when Nyack's ladder wouldn't fit. It happens. There will be finger pointing in Tarrytown for a long time to come, the entire process was doomed from the start when the company couldn't get the truck they wanted and now this will just add to it. Next time, and it probably won't be long until the next Tarrytown piece is spec'd, everyone can draw from this experience and work together.

In the meantime, they should look into a permanant fix rather than another temporary fix. Can you change the geometry of that angle as well as the elevation? If you have to spend $18K on a fix why not spend $150K on a remedy?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Lets remember that this is not the first time this has happened in Tarrytown as well. If I remember correctly TL-78 did not fit into to its existing quarters at the time, however I am not sure if that was intentional or not. I know it was living in a semi-quonset hut like structure at one point.

Edited April 15, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[Engine 80 16]

You mean the seagrave they rigged the bid to try and get? Having reviewed that spec it was clear that only one dealer could bid on that spec. And the NYS Comptroller says thats illegal. You can purchase from a sole source but their are parameters, that they did not meet.

It took a lot of political courage for the board to follow the law.

[Engine 80 16]

capt nechis there were no bids rigged the first time ,wow ,we talked to alot of dealers at first and alot could not fit a new truck in the station,and seagrave was able to.and also east west stated to the village baord that they should go with round 1 as you say,the rigged bid seagrave! and now east west over looked what we have ben saying the hole time the angle of the drive way, the truck is 116 inches and the door is 118 u do the math.

[Engine 80 16]

Pretty harsh statements "rigged a bid" (in another prior post), "advicate breaking state law".

I thought the Company from day 1 stated you needed to be very careful with the size of the rig?

Whats done is done, and to the taxpayers it looks like the village took control and screwed it up.

thank you spin the wheel,size was always an issue ,you are 100% correct,rite on target.

[helicopper 1,050]

capt nechis there were no bids rigged the first time ,wow ,we talked to alot of dealers at first and alot could not fit a new truck in the station,and seagrave was able to.and also east west stated to the village baord that they should go with round 1 as you say,the rigged bid seagrave! and now east west over looked what we have ben saying the hole time the angle of the drive way, the truck is 116 inches and the door is 118 u do the math.

If you write the specs so only one entity can bid you run afoul of state law and can be accused of "bid rigging". Saying that only Seagrave can meet the spec is presumptive on our part and we have to give other vendors the opportunity to either meet the spec or decline to bid.

[Bnechis 3,961]

If you write the specs so only one entity can bid you run afoul of state law and can be accused of "bid rigging". Saying that only Seagrave can meet the spec is presumptive on our part and we have to give other vendors the opportunity to either meet the spec or decline to bid.

If the issue was size and the bid was only a vehicle that is under "X" feet knowing that there is only 1 manufacturer is not rigging a bid. But writing the dealers shop must be located in the county, when only one manufacture meets that, but other dealers outside the county are closer to the dept. can not be justified under NYS purchasing regulations.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

So they went with Crimson-Fire and the dealer in Suffolk County NY, Hendrickson Fire. Boy where is that Bayville - Rye bridge when you need it!