North Salem-Working Fire-4/11/11- DISCUSSION

[DaRock98 76]

The IA of this call states that bat. 13 came on scene and assumed command. Is this true? I was always under the impression that they were Deputy Coordinators and their role was to be a resource between the IC and 60 Control, and that they were not to be the IC of a job. Can someone please explain this a little further to me or was this just a typo?

[JohnnyOV 2]

I kept hearing throughout the duration incident, and numerous times "Batt 13 to 60-control, as per the IC....." so it sounds like a typo / he misunderstood what the battalion was relaying to 60

[mfc2257 464]

I kept hearing throughout the duration incident, and numerous times "Batt 13 to 60-control, as per the IC....." so it sounds like a typo / he misunderstood what the battalion was relaying to 60

Based on the "as per the IC..." it sounds like indeed the BC (Coordinator not Battalion Chief as we're using Westchester County DES language here) was assisting with fireground communication, which as a coordinator is one resource they need to be proficient in.

On the other hand, I see no issue with passing command to the BC if the IC's attention needs to be focused onto a specific aspect of the incident based on their individual expertise or knowledge.... For example, a WSF is impinging on an adjacent structure which contains HAZMAT and the IC happens to be the highest trained officer on scene within HAZMAT protocol... I would see no issue passing command from the IC (local fire department officer who has established command) to the Battalion Coordinator and in turn the original IC becomes the operations leader for assessing, protecting, and requesting resources for the adjacent structure with HAZMAT concerns.

[mlcougar2001 8]

Bat13 is also past chief in croton falls fire district which covers north salem. I did not listen to fire so I have no idea what was said or not said, just making an observation.

[JohnnyOV 2]

On the other hand, I see no issue with passing command to the BC if the IC's attention needs to be focused onto a specific aspect of the incident based on their individual expertise or knowledge.... For example, a WSF is impinging on an adjacent structure which contains HAZMAT and the IC happens to be the highest trained officer on scene within HAZMAT protocol... I would see no issue passing command from the IC (local fire department officer who has established command) to the Battalion Coordinator and in turn the original IC becomes the operations leader for assessing, protecting, and requesting resources for the adjacent structure with HAZMAT concerns.

Command cannot legally be passed onto a BC in Westchester county. The Chief of the Authority Having Jurisdiction is ultimately responsible for the incident. Passing it onto a County Coordinator, which has no authority in jurisdiction cannot work. You might be able to say that the BC has the IC over the air, and he/she might start calling the shots, but when something happens that requires an investigation to ensue, the department's highest ranking member on location, as well as the Chief of the department, as per NYS, are ultimately responsible for what occurs on the fire ground.

The BC is strictly a liaison between the actual IC, and 60-Control, so the IC can focus on the incident. If you're referring to the guy who's acting as the liaison at the incident as command, to me that is not correct. Command is not the guy running the radio (I.e Batt X), Command is the guy running the show (Car X from department X).

Edited April 13, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[mfc2257 464]

Command cannot legally be passed onto a BC in Westchester county. The Chief of the Authority Having Jurisdiction is ultimately responsible for the incident. Passing it onto a County Coordinator, which has no authority in jurisdiction cannot work. You might be able to say that the BC has the IC over the air, and he/she might start calling the shots, but when something happens that requires an investigation to ensue, the department's highest ranking member on location, as well as the Chief of the department, as per NYS, are ultimately responsible for what occurs on the fire ground.

The BC is strictly a liaison between the actual IC, and 60-Control, so the IC can focus on the incident. If you're referring to the guy who's acting as the liaison at the incident as command, to me that is not correct. Command is not the guy running the radio (I.e Batt X), Command, the guy running the show (Car X from department X).

I fully understand the textbook responsibilities of the BC in Westchester County. I would challenge your assumption that the IC cannot pass command. Are you saying that if a local chief and his engine roll up on a first due structure fire with entrapment, and it is known at that time that a neighboring department with their chief is responding second due and said second due chief's arrival is expected within a short period of time, that the 1st due chief cannot pass command should he need to act in order to assist the first due engine in life saving activities?

Ultimately the first due chief is responsible which in turn may mean that in order to effect the most successful outcome at any particular emergency, that they may need to pass command to someone more qualified or to someone who can reasonably perform the IC task while the first due chief performs another in the interest of public safety.

This is permitted in many other jurisdictions and I have seen it happen in Westchester County. If there is chapter and verse that indicate that this is not legally permissible please site it and I will amend my post.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I fully understand the textbook responsibilities of the BC in Westchester County. I would challenge your assumption that the IC cannot pass command. Are you saying that if a local chief and his engine roll up on a first due structure fire with entrapment, and it is known at that time that a neighboring department with their chief is responding second due and said second due chief's arrival is expected within a short period of time, that the 1st due chief cannot pass command should he need to act in order to assist the first due engine in life saving activities?

Ultimately the first due chief is responsible which in turn may mean that in order to effect the most successful outcome at any particular emergency, that they may need to pass command to someone more qualified or to someone who can reasonably perform the IC task while the first due chief performs another in the interest of public safety.

This is permitted in many other jurisdictions and I have seen it happen in Westchester County. If there is chapter and verse that indicate that this is not legally permissible please site it and I will amend my post.

How can command be passed/assumed if the 2nd due department aren't on location?

I never said the IC could not pass command. Command can be transfered to someone of equal or higher authority, face to face. Westchester County BCs have 0 operational jurisdiction, other then responding and acting as strictly a liaison, thus removing them from the actual chain of command. On a separate note, I think some of our BC's need to re-read their book on what their roles and responsibilities actually are. Calling for units when the IC never asks for them is quite outside their operational boundary.

You've seen department X hand over department Y command at their incident in NYS? Not a mockery, but I'm actually curious as to what the circumstances were and what incident took place to let another department run their show. Seems like a legal nightmare to me.

All I am saying is that legally, the Chief of the department, regardless of whether or not he is actually operating on the scene (i.e. tarrytown confined space incident) ultimately has legal responsibility for what occurs at each incident. Car 1 could be away at work and a fire with a LODD occurs because of some fault of the FD. That Chief is responsible for his men in NYS. Ethically the other officers might be responsible, but in a court of law the Chief is 100% liable. You could make bozo the clown your IC at your incident if you felt so compelled, the Chief would just have to answer to the judge on why.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Also, maybe some of the more experienced guys here could help me find the laws regarding this. I cannot find the laws online