Parade Coverage?(Non rhetorical)

[thebreeze 194]

Its that time of the year again, time to leave your district with little or no coverage to make people in another district( sometimes far enough away to be in a different area code/county/state) think that you have a full fledged state of the art firefighting force. Little do they know that what they see is usually all you have, and as for for coverage back home there may as well be a few cows wandering around the empty bays in your firehouse. Don't jump on me right away, I have seen things like this go on in a few different departments. My question to all of you who are so eager to share parade dates and shine each others brass is; when you go out of district, what apparatus do you take, who do you take, what rigs do you leave behind, who stays in the district, and what percentage of your those people who stay behind are interior firefighters? Just curious.

Edited April 11, 2011 by thebreeze

[JBE 328]

Wasn't this borught up before??

[StOpGoBlUE 11]

Wasn't this borught up before??

Yes it was. And it turned into a complete bashing session, which I have a feeling with the above stated seems like it going to be a pathway to the same situation as last year. But I will start it off.. My dept usally sends 2 engines a ladder and the rescue to parades, wich leaves back in town 6 engines , 1 ladder. And plenty of manpower..

[thebreeze 194]

Just because it was asked before doesn't mean it was answered, in previous threads it was mostly people just trying to defend what their departments do rather than answer the actual question, which leads me to believe that they have their own doubts about their own departments practices. StopGoBlue, I appreciate your response, sounds pretty reasonable in terms of apparatus depending on how far away the parade is, however, saying plenty of manpower doesn't really specifically address my question as to how many interior members are available. Sounds like you come from a fairly large department and are lucky enough to have a large membership, a better way to ask for you may be to address what percentage of your interior qualfied firefighters attend the parade and what percentage are actually available to provide coverage back at home.

[ckroll 101]

Just because it was asked before doesn't mean it was answered, in previous threads it was mostly people just trying to defend what their departments do rather than answer the actual question, which leads me to believe that they have their own doubts about their own departments practices. StopGoBlue, I appreciate your response, sounds pretty reasonable in terms of apparatus depending on how far away the parade is, however, saying plenty of manpower doesn't really specifically address my question as to how many interior members are available. Sounds like you come from a fairly large department and are lucky enough to have a large membership, a better way to ask for you may be to address what percentage of your interior qualfied firefighters attend the parade and what percentage are actually available to provide coverage back at home.

Please, don't leave EMS out in the cold on this. Ambulance Corps, how do you do it? And heaven forbid we should ever discuss something more than once on this forum.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I always respect honesty. Just be ready..the rose colored glass wearing, vanilla cake eaters will be coming singing kum by ya.

As far as how to some do it...their jedi powers still work on the weak and unwitting. Meaning in city hall and john and joan citizen.

[GAW6 66]

Ambulance Corps, how do you do it?

We have plenty of members who do not like/wish to attend parades, therefore we always make sure there is a crew on before leaving for a parade, otherwise, we would not go.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Depending on where the parade is, you can respond from the parade to calls.

[Guest MahopacFF101]

My Department has 4 engines, a truck & a rescue. We usually only send 1 piece and our antique to a parade along with a van. We have about 150 members and average 35-40 at a parade. There is an EMS crew in quarters till most return, usually 1 hour after the parade. In addition to the members who don't march usually there is a dual dispatch with our neighboring department or a standby engine from another department in the firehouse.

Why do we have to discuss this every spring? BTW we have better coverage during a parade (5pm-8pm average) then we do during normal workday hours (8am-4pm)

[Bnechis 3,961]

saying plenty of manpower doesn't really specifically address my question as to how many interior members are available. Sounds like you come from a fairly large department and are lucky enough to have a large membership, a better way to ask for you may be to address what percentage of your interior qualfied firefighters attend the parade and what percentage are actually available to provide coverage back at home.

Percentage is a very poor way to determine coverage. If dept X has 100 interior members and 60% go to the parade, you still have 40 members left. If you only have 10 interior members and 60% go, you are pressed to meet the 2in 2out standard.

The bigger question is not what parade coverage you provide on a few days a year (which is important), but what is your ability to meet minimum national standards, 24/7/365.

Too many depts cant do this every day of the year.

And if you cant do that, then feel free to go to the parade, because its clear that your dept is not there for the community anyway.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Hey guys , if the Parade catches fire they can meet the two in and two out ! come on think positive !

[Alpinerunner 61]

Why do we have to discuss this every spring? BTW we have better coverage during a parade (5pm-8pm average) then we do during normal workday hours (8am-4pm)

This is a very good point. Parades are on holidays/weekends and we always have better coverage during parades than regular day times. But to answer your question, we usually send an engine and a utility to a parade and leave an staffed engine, ladder and rescue in the house. Many memebers aren't into parades. I personally, have never been to one.

Good, important topic though for sure.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

How many times do we need to discuss the same topic? Did anyone even bother to search and see how previous discussions of this same topic went??

[x129K 1,393]

Why? Because it is a hot topic to stir up the hornet's nest, an old stand by to pour gasoline onto the volunteer - career fire..........

FYI - I effing LOVE parades.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Just a suggestion, would it be easier for the moderators to reactivate the previous 5 or 6 years Parade threads in later April or May. This way everyone will not have BEAT THE DEAD HORSE again each year. You can read the same questions/answers/thoughts/ideas and get back to writing about firefighting

What I meant more was, the SAME things get whined about every year, people feel the need to start new threads, and beat the same, skeleton of a horse (been dead so long)...

[Alpinerunner 61]

Either some people have an adjenda or don't know how to search. Probably the latter...

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Either some people have an adjenda or don't know how to search. Probably the latter...

agenda without a doubt, could be ignorance but that would be just sad.

[JohnnyOV 2]

agenda without a doubt, could be ignorance but that would be just sad.

Whats wrong with having an agenda? Without an agenda, nothing would ever get done. Progression would never occur, in fact without an agenda, slavery would still be around.

Just because he shines light on a topic that in my opinion needs to be looked at severely by each department doesn't mean he is a bad guy or has terrible ideas. They are just ideas that you do not agree with. Instead of throwing hands up in the air, cry the "beating the dead horse" routine, or "he just has it out for volleys," why not look and understand where he is coming from.

We are the fire department. We are here to protect lives and property. Driving our 500K-1M dollar rigs around to communities near and far to show them off, doesn't really do our tax payers any good when their house burns down when we're not around.

edit: it is ok, and actually takes a bigger person to look at someone else's views and realize "hey, maybe we need to look at it that way." You'll probably get more respect for listening to an idea, and then constructively debating it, then to just call someone ignorant.

Edited April 12, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Whats wrong with having an agenda? Without an agenda, nothing would ever get done. Progression would never occur, in fact without an agenda, slavery would still be around.

Just because he shines light on a topic that in my opinion needs to be looked at severely by each department doesn't mean he is a bad guy or has terrible ideas. They are just ideas that you do not agree with. Instead of throwing hands up in the air, cry the "beating the dead horse" routine, or "he just has it out for volleys," why not look and understand where he is coming from.

We are the fire department. We are here to protect lives and property. Driving our 500K-1M dollar rigs around to communities near and far to show them off, doesn't really do our tax payers any good when their house burns down when we're not around.

edit: it is ok, and actually takes a bigger person to look at someone else's views and realize "hey, maybe we need to look at it that way." You'll probably get more respect for listening to an idea, and then constructively debating it, then to just call someone ignorant.

The ignorance comes from either not looking up the fact that it has been discussed here before or not thinking it wouldn't cause a debate on career/volunteer as per usual. I personally believe that 90% of parades most departments attend are a waste of time and potentially deplete area resources. My statement was simply saying that clearly this topic was going to start another bravo parade season bashfest 2k11, something I have no problem with, but obviously was going to occur. You read more into my statement then existed and I can not help that, dont take it personally.

Edited April 12, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[thebreeze 194]

I am a volunteer, and if it isn't already obvious, I don't like going to parades. Sounds like I just got up and addressed a room of parade haters anonymous. The only agenda I have here is to get people to take a look within their own departments and evaluate what the actual priorities are. Whats more important, going to parades, or ensuring that your community has the best possible coverage day and night? As for those of you who say you have better coverage on days with parades I find this pretty disturbing, where are these people the rest of the time? Why is a day with a parade more important to cover? My point is that everyone seems to get so geared up for parade season but when it comes to important issues like manpower and response times most everyone throws up a wall and doesn't really want to discuss it or immediately starts calling it a volly bashing. To the people that make sure they have adequate coverage on the day of a parade, why don't you do this everyday, and to the people who don't ensure coverage, well like BNechis said, why are you even there at all? As far as this being a paid vs volunteer debate I really don't see how you could make that assertion. The practice of taking units and members out of service, and out of district, for a parade, is as far as I know exclusive to the volunteer service. I don't know of any career departments that follow this practice, this isn't a paid vs. career issue, this is a topic meant to get you thinking about where your priorities should be, and where they actually are.

(Also I did not in fact know how to search, I'll try it out if I ever create another thread)

[JohnnyOV 2]

The ignorance comes from either not looking up the fact that it has been discussed here before or not thinking it wouldn't cause a debate on career/volunteer as per usual. I personally believe that 90% of parades most departments attend are a waste of time and potentially deplete area resources. My statement was simply saying that clearly this topic was going to start another bravo parade season bashfest 2k11, something I have no problem with, but obviously was going to occur. You read more into my statement then existed and I can not help that, dont take it personally.

Nothing taken personally, and if I did take it personally, its time to move away from the fire service. And I stand corrected then.

[ladder55 26]

While I am no longer a parade person any longer I do recall seeing a career dept 3/4 million dollar ladder on the opposite side of the county for a parade with its vollies, being driven by a career member. So it may be practiced alot more by volunteer departments but is not exclusive to volunteer departments.

[Dinosaur 844]

So what its been discussed before. Who cares? You don't want to read it don't read it.

I'm so tired of the paid/volunteer crap. This has nothing to do with that.

There are FDs that send almost all their first line apparatus out of town for parades. Asking how you cover is a legit question.

How about Lake George? That always pissed me off. How many trucks and guys do you send at the taxpayers expense to a party weekend in Lake George? This isnt a parade for a couple of hours. Its a whole weekend a hundred miles away. How much does that little trip cost?

To the guy that said you have 150 members. How many are fully qualified firefighters? Not support, not exterior, but real, qualified, interior firefighters. I'm just curious because the trend I used to see is that of that number only a fraction are actually capable of doing the job. One FD I was involved with boasted 300 members. 200+ were "associate members" and couldn't fight a candle let alone a house fire. 75 were drivers or exterior leaving about 25 to actually do the "job" that everyone boasts being here to do.

[x129K 1,393]

How about Lake George? That always pissed me off. How many trucks and guys do you send at the taxpayers expense to a party weekend in Lake George? This isnt a parade for a couple of hours. Its a whole weekend a hundred miles away. How much does that little trip cost?

Excellent point....as mentioned, I love parades, but I too, despise the fact of taking apparatus and manpower up to Lake George! Add in the fact I am SURE the department is footing the bill for the rooms....NO BUENO!

[FFLieu 70]

This has been hashed, re-hashed, and beaten to death every single year. Can a Mod close this before what we all know is going to happen, happens?

[JFLYNN 681]

While I am no longer a parade person any longer I do recall seeing a career dept 3/4 million dollar ladder on the opposite side of the county for a parade with its vollies, being driven by a career member. So it may be practiced alot more by volunteer departments but is not exclusive to volunteer departments.

This is a ridiculous statement. What you are referring to is a combination department, not a career department. The career member in question was almost certainly directed to drive the apparatus to the parade by his volunteer "superiors", who very probably refer to him (with intent and purpose) as "driver", not "Firefighter".

Kudos to the many level headed, volunteers who care about their community and have had the courage to criticize in this thread the disgraceful practice of taking apparatus out of their district for a parade.

I do have an agenda about lots of issues. One of my issues (concerns) is the ridiculous and hypocritical practice of bringing apparatus to parades outside of the district. I hear constantly about the need for funding and incentives to recruit to fill the diminishing ranks of volunteer firefighters who will "save the community the enormous cost of a paid fire department" (btw always using the word "paid" as opposed to "career"...this too is done with intent and purpose)...It is also incessantly and inanely regurgitated that "volunteers and career guys are the same and provide the same level of service"...The practice of bringing apparatus and a large percentage of members to parades outside district flies directly in the face of these statements.

It is apparent that this is a legitimate issue and it is not unfair basing of volunteer by career members. Many volunteer firefighters are ethical and have common sense enough to realize that this archaic practice no longer has a place in the fire service if "we", yes "we" (career and volunteer) take the oaths we have sworn to our community's seriously. Many volunteer firefighters have stated so in this thread and in other threads previously...

Are we beating a dead horse? Absolutely not! The problem still exists! Any avenue available to expose this problem for what it is should be taken. Many people outside of the fire service are unaware of this situation and many inside of the fire service are complacent and / or resistant to change. So, those of us who have an agenda will repeat our mantra...most others will remain on the sidelines, some may feel inspired to join in and speak up for positive change, and of course we will always have those individuals who will rationalize, attack the messenger, or blame shift.

Eventually though, apparatus in out of district parades will go the way of horse drawn engines, wooden ladders, and pullup rubber boots (Lord, how I miss those!)

Hopefully, the discarding of this practice will happen as the result of rational, forward thinking fire service leaders and not as a consequence of a high- profile tragedy.

Edited April 13, 2011 by JFLYNN

[Dinosaur 844]

This has been hashed, re-hashed, and beaten to death every single year. Can a Mod close this before what we all know is going to happen, happens?

So dont read it.

[16fire5 693]

what percentage of your interior qualfied firefighters attend the parade

Judging by the ammount of chiefs and members in the line of march with goatees and full beards the interiors are not marching.

[thebreeze 194]

Our national deficit gets hashed, rehashed, and beaten to death every year. Doesn't seem like we have found a solution for that yet either so I guess we should just give up dialogue about it? Talking about something isn't solving a problem but its a means with which to start the ball rolling in order to effect change. What I think are some fairly egregious breaches of the public trust have been discussed here and for the most part everyone seems to either find no fault with it or wishes to turn a blind eye and hope it will either go away or someone else will deal with it. Well change comes from within and if you really care about the job you are supposed to be doing then maybe you should get involved in the discussion. Not only here but maybe the next time you are at the firehouse and everyone is getting ready for the parade. Maybe you may want to interrupt someone from shining the tires and say, "hey, who and what is going to be here while everyone else is 25 minutes away?" Especially if you plan on staying back, because you don't want to be the one standing there holding your hat trying to explain to a taxpayer why a fire in their garbage can that should have been out in minutes is now the Great Dustbin Conflagration of 2011. I understand staffing in the volunteer service is tough, and you'd be hard put to come by a district that can meet NFPA standards 24/7. I also understand that for the most part we all try to do our best to remedy this situation and whether many of you like to admit it or not we all know its a problem. My real problem with parades is that when we already know there is a problem, many of us actively take part in making it worse, and even if its just for a few days a year, thats too many. If you really want to go to parades that badly why don't you get several departments together, hash out how man guys each department can spare without compromising staffing( at least not any worse than a normal day), acquire a parade rig (I am sure one of the departments you band together with at least has a spare if not an antique), and all march together. For those of you who want to bring company pride and respect into this, company pride isn't something you can be awarded by a judge for walking down the street. Its not something the public is going to judge you on or give to you. Its the respect you're going to get from other companies and departments who see you doing your job and doing it well.

[ladder55 26]

Actually the department im referring to is a career Dept. There are a handful of vollies that do nothing. The driver is career and was on overtime. Rediculious? Its only rediculious when vollies do it.