Annual Elections

[huzzie59 75]

How many Departments hold annual elections in April every year?

[firemoose827 324]

My old department has them every April, Regular meeting is the elections, than the "banquet" on the first saturday of the month.

My current dept has them in December, and they take over office January 1st.

[DaRock98 76]

My department holds them in December and the term starts January 1st. I absolutely HATE elections because they are nothing but a popularity contest and the best people for the job usually walk away losers because the membership doesn't care about the important things only who they like more. I wish departments would do away with elections and have strict promotional rules and regulations based on expirence and training rather then who is liked more.

End of rant!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

My department holds them in December and the term starts January 1st. I absolutely HATE elections because they are nothing but a popularity contest and the best people for the job usually walk away losers because the membership doesn't care about the important things only who they like more. I wish departments would do away with elections and have strict promotional rules and regulations based on expirence and training rather then who is liked more.

End of rant!

While I certainly don't disagree, I find it very interesting you say that considering you are a proclaimed (or at least in your info box it says that) "volunteer fire captain".

Most departments I can think of have them start in Jan. 1, but there are a few that have them elected/start in April or October/November so that the current line of officers has time to develop plans, budgets, training and other officer related duties in time for the start of the new year.

[firebuff860 54]

Village Fire Department elections are held in April. I believe all Town/District elections are held in December.

[DaRock98 76]

While I certainly don't disagree, I find it very interesting you say that considering you are a proclaimed (or at least in your info box it says that) "volunteer fire captain".

I am currently serving as captain I took office as of January 1st following my term as 1st lieut. I just wish that our current process for office was a little more strict than it currently is. I'm not going to go around saying we do everything right because I know we don't. The reason I ran for the job was to try and make a difference and get our department moving in the right direction. (because I feel I can make a difference, but I am finding out its a lot harder then I thought)

[x129K 1,393]

Fight for TWO YEAR TERMS for Chief

Officers!!!!!!!!

Edited April 6, 2011 by Bullseye

[ny10570 745]

My department holds them in December and the term starts January 1st. I absolutely HATE elections because they are nothing but a popularity contest and the best people for the job usually walk away losers because the membership doesn't care about the important things only who they like more. I wish departments would do away with elections and have strict promotional rules and regulations based on expirence and training rather then who is liked more.

End of rant!

Bad news killer, thats all elections. From POTUS all the way down to student council. I know I haven't seen the best candidate elected president in my lifetime. Its always the best salesman.

[DaRock98 76]

Bad news killer, thats all elections. From POTUS all the way down to student council. I know I haven't seen the best candidate elected president in my lifetime. Its always the best salesman.

Thanks "killer" I realize that. It was just me letting off steam.

[gamewell45 258]

Some of you can probably relate to this:

http://box45.blogspot.com/2009/10/time-to-sharpen-knives.html

[SOUSGT 357]

Bad news killer, thats all elections. From POTUS all the way down to student council. I know I haven't seen the best candidate elected president in my lifetime. Its always the best salesman.

In my department in order for a FF to "run" for office, said FF must meet certain requirements.

1) Time in grade (For Lt. 2 years of membership in good standing as a Class 1 FF.).

2) Currently a Class 1 FF.

3) Education requirements.

The education requirements increase as you go up the ladder. The courses are prescribed and not chosen by the candidate. They are the State offered courses.

In order to run for Deputy Chief, a candidate needs 10 years active service as a class 1 FF and about 20 classes.

Chief of Department requires being a former Deputy Chief and more Educational requirements.

The next question is what if you don’t have a qualified candidate for a position?

We haven’t had that occur for one of the chiefs yet, but we had vacant line officers positions due to lack

of qualified applicants.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In my department in order for a FF to "run" for office, said FF must meet certain requirements.

1) Time in grade (For Lt. 2 years of membership in good standing as a Class 1 FF.).

The next question is what if you don’t have a qualified candidate for a position? We haven’t had that occur for one of the chiefs yet, but we had vacant line officers positions due to lack of qualified applicants.

I find it hard to believe that any dept. would consider 2 years as enough time/experience as a firefighter to be able to supervise and instruct other firefighters. In many cases they have just completed probation. How many actual fires and emergencies could an individule go on to "learn the trade" in 2 years?

I am not trying to make this a career/vol. issue, but how can the career side accept volunteers as "the same" when we require our new firefighters to have 2x the training level as your Lt., just to graduate the fire acadamy and respond to calls as a probie under the direct supervision of an officer

If you do not have enough personnel that can meet the standard that you have set (which I have already commented on as being very substandard as well as dangerious to the public, the members and themselves) then its time to reconsider how you deliever fire protection.

If there are not enough trained personnel, you need to recruit more, hire more, train more or consolidate with another dept. so that you can meet the most basic of standards for providing protection to the community.

[FFPCogs 863]

I find it hard to believe that any dept. would consider 2 years as enough time/experience as a firefighter to be able to supervise and instruct other firefighters. In many cases they have just completed probation. How many actual fires and emergencies could an individule go on to "learn the trade" in 2 years?

I am not trying to make this a career/vol. issue, but how can the career side accept volunteers as "the same" when we require our new firefighters to have 2x the training level as your Lt., just to graduate the fire acadamy and respond to calls as a probie under the direct supervision of an officer

If you do not have enough personnel that can meet the standard that you have set (which I have already commented on as being very substandard as well as dangerious to the public, the members and themselves) then its time to reconsider how you deliever fire protection.

If there are not enough trained personnel, you need to recruit more, hire more, train more or consolidate with another dept. so that you can meet the most basic of standards for providing protection to the community.

Well B, I can't believe I'm saying this but I actually agree with you on everything you've said.....

Holy sh!t!! I guess 2012 really will mean the end of the world....

Cogs

[JFLYNN 681]

Well B, I can't believe I'm saying this but I actually agree with you on everything you've said.....

Holy sh!t!! I guess 2012 really will mean the end of the world....

Cogs

Apparently, the end is near....

[JTF429 37]

Good Topic. Many are right sadley it is a popularity contest or on the career side politics or quota's. Let's look at the volunteer side for a second. Instead of who is popular or who buys the beers at the bar, how about a testing process. I am thinking along the lines of an assessment center. The members who meet the educational requirements go through an assessment center that has an inbox, fire/ems evoloution, and personnel problem. They are graded by three officers from outside the department. After the election takes place the results are turned over to the Chief and training division. Now at least the Chief has an idea where his line officers need help and can develop there training around it. Its not perfect but an idea.You are never going to get away from popularity and lack of experience in the volunteer sector. As far as having someone run for a line officer postion with only 2 years, bad idea. Just my 2 cents

[SOUSGT 357]

I find it hard to believe that any dept. would consider 2 years as enough time/experience as a firefighter to be able to supervise and instruct other firefighters. In many cases they have just completed probation. How many actual fires and emergencies could an individule go on to "learn the trade" in 2 years?

I am not trying to make this a career/vol. issue, but how can the career side accept volunteers as "the same" when we require our new firefighters to have 2x the training level as your Lt., just to graduate the fire acadamy and respond to calls as a probie under the direct supervision of an officer

If you do not have enough personnel that can meet the standard that you have set (which I have already commented on as being very substandard as well as dangerious to the public, the members and themselves) then its time to reconsider how you deliever fire protection.

If there are not enough trained personnel, you need to recruit more, hire more, train more or consolidate with another dept. so that you can meet the most basic of standards for providing protection to the community.

This started off as a thread on company elections and as you stretched it, I feel I must reply.

II find it hard to believe that any dept. would consider 2 years as enough time/experience as a firefighter to be able to supervise and instruct other firefighters. In many cases they have just completed probation. How many actual fires and emergencies could an individual go on to "learn the trade" in 2 years?

That depends on the Department:

You are fortunate that you are employed by a department that has the manpower and workload to keep your skills up. However, there are some departments were personnel may not respond to a fire in years, just by amount of fires or the way the chart works out. Also unless a probie is employed by one of the larger departments there is a chance that a volunteer may have more hands training or actual fire experience.

I am not trying to make this a career/vol. issue, but how can the career side accept volunteers as "the same" when we require our new firefighters to have 2x the training level as your Lt., just to graduate the fire academy and respond to calls as a probie under the direct supervision of an officer.

I really don’t care if you ever accept me as “the same” Its not why I joined. I have no illusions that I can walk into a FDNY house in the South Bronx and compare war stories.

I assume that the training you received is longer and therefore better. But what do you do with it once you complete it. You seem to assume that every career FF is as well trained and is able to maintain their skills at your level. I assume that many can but by the nature of the some of the departments in the area, some can’t. There are other departments were the probie is somewhat under the direction of an officer, but the officer may be operating another rig.

If you do not have enough personnel that can meet the standard that you have set (which I have already commented on as being very substandard as well as dangerious to the public, the members and themselves) then its time to reconsider how you deliever fire protection.

Funny thing, There does not seem to be a department in the EMT Bravo universe that has enough qualified personnel to maintain adequate staffing according to the forums. Does that mean that every department is substandard

and dangerous and should reconsider how we deliver fire protection? The answer is of course not. We do the best we can with what we have and strive to do better. And as you don’t know what department I am talking about nor the average response, I don’t see how you can make such a general statement.

If there are not enough trained personnel, you need to recruit more, hire more, train more or consolidate with another dept. so that you can meet the most basic of standards for providing protection to the community.

You seem to have mis read the comment. I never stated that we did not have enough trained or qualified personnel. It was intended to show that not all volunteer departments have a beauty contest for officer elections. Some have defined standards. I can’t speak for all but some would rather not fill a vacancy with an unqualified FF than “fill a slot” with anybody because we have X slots to fill.

Please don’t construe this to be a putdown of anyone or organization. It seems that sometimes when a general question comes up it meanders to a career vrs volunteer argument. The fact of the matter is that both have to learn to live together and fight the common enemy-FIRE.

And remember this: When the you know what hits the fan we all seem to put our differences aside work shoulder to shoulder and help our neighbors.

[Bnechis 3,961]

II find it hard to believe that any dept. would consider 2 years as enough time/experience as a firefighter to be able to supervise and instruct other firefighters. In many cases they have just completed probation. How many actual fires and emergencies could an individual go on to "learn the trade" in 2 years?

You are fortunate that you are employed by a department that has the manpower and workload to keep your skills up. However, there are some departments were personnel may not respond to a fire in years, just by amount of fires or the way the chart works out. Also unless a probie is employed by one of the larger departments there is a chance that a volunteer may have more hands training or actual fire experience.

So if my busy dept (and most other busy depts.) believe you need at least 5 years as a firefighter before earning the right to test for the right to be a 1st Line supervisor, how can “slower” depts. consider 2 years is enough experience to be one?

I really don’t care if you ever accept me as “the same” Its not why I joined. I have no illusions that I can walk into a FDNY house in the South Bronx and compare war stories.

It is not about war stories, it is about competence to lead and make sure our firefighters go home at the end of the shift/call.

I assume that the training you received is longer and therefore better. But what do you do with it once you complete it. You seem to assume that every career FF is as well trained and is able to maintain their skills at your level.

Yes I assume it, since it is required by NYS Law. Yes we know that it is hard for some depts. to maintain and that’s why the MTO’s are now running live burns for those depts..

There are other departments were the probie is somewhat under the direction of an officer, but the officer may be operating another rig.

I include these depts. in my statement. they need to recruit, hire or consolidate, as they do not have the staff needed to respond properly.

Funny thing, There does not seem to be a department in the EMT Bravo universe that has enough qualified personnel to maintain adequate staffing according to the forums. Does that mean that every department is substandard

I don’t consider the EMT Bravo forums as the determining factor for manning. I look at the national standards as developed by NFPA, ICMA, ISO, IAFF and I even look at the manning standards in Belgium, England, France, Germany, Ireland, The Netherlands, Scotland, and Wales (along with others). Some of have been in place for over 60 years. Based on every standard along with the ratings given to depts. in Westchester and in most communities, the number of depts. that are dispatched to handle a simple room and content fire. We hear this on a regular basis.

dangerous and should reconsider how we deliver fire protection? The answer is of course not. We do the best we can with what we have and strive to do better. And as you don’t know what department I am talking about nor the average response, I don’t see how you can make such a general statement.

“We do the best we can”……..So you have looked at consolidating, hiring, and all other methods to grow? If you are not meeting minimum standards and you have not done “EVERYTHING” then your line is just that: “a line”. I do not need to know what dept. as it easy to make it based on your statements of your minimum requirements and how sometimes you can’t even find people who meet them.

You seem to have mis read the comment. I never stated that we did not have enough trained or qualified personnel. It was intended to show that not all volunteer departments have a beauty contest for officer elections. Some have defined standards. I can’t speak for all but some would rather not fill a vacancy with an unqualified FF than “fill a slot” with anybody because we have X slots to fill.

Maybe I did misread it, since I agree that it is good that you would not consider not fill a vacancy with an unqualified FF just to fill the slot. But my point was twofold;

1st If your standards are so low that the difference between qualified and unqualified is the slim margin you listed, it does not really matter.

2nd If the depth of personnel is so shallow that you do not have a waiting list of qualified personnel then you have a problem.

[wraftery 1,275]

The geography might be different, but the job is pretty much the same. No matter where you are on this Earth, a Fire Officer has to have his head filled with STUFF, and be able to reach in and find that stuff in a moment's notice. I didn't come up with that saying. Tommy Brennan did, God rest his soul. That need for stuff could be needed rain or shine, night or day, but often when you least expect it. It comes when you are out of your comfort zone or bread and butter run.

Your job is to know all you can know and to train for anything. I was holding a training session on light shaft fires in abutted 3-story OMD's. If you have been an officer for any amount of time, you know what comes next. The assigned Naysayer for the day ( It should be up on the assignment board "FF Doe-L/Jumpseat-Nozzle-Radio C-Naysayer") sticks his hand up before my second sentence has finished. "Name one building around here that is like that!!!" I answer: "They"re all over the place in Yonkers or the Bronx." L/Jumpseat: "We don't work in Yonkers or the Bronx." I don't get a chance to answer. The MPO pipes in "John...remember when we were covering School Street (YFD) and got a run with New Rochelle? Turned out to be a 2nd in a building like that. And what about 9/11...weren't we in the Broonx for 3 days?"

My point? I'm glad I took a test. I might not have made it in an election. Voters could care less about the stuff you have in your head.

Edited April 8, 2011 by wraftery

[JohnnyOV 2]

.

Edited April 8, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[ex-commish 490]

Voters could care less about the stuff you have in your head.

Very true.