Long Island Fire District spending questioned

[FDNYDCHI 38]

This was on fox 5 news investigative report that questioned spending in 2 long island fire districts to sum it up its about talk of consolidating services and compares everything to the FDNY.

Here is the link: http://www.myfoxny.c...tricts-20110317

Edited March 18, 2011 by helicopper
Link to story repaired.

[ace84 100]

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/spending-questioned-for-long-island-fire-districts-20110317

[FDNYDCHI 38]

thanks helicopper and ace84 for the correction..

Edited March 18, 2011 by FDNYDCHI

[helicopper 1,050]

But Nassau and Suffolk have 180 separate fire departments with budgets in the millions. And most are almost right next door to each other. Dix Hills, with a $3.9 million budget, is 3 miles away from Commack, which spends $3.8 million, and 7 miles from Huntington Manor, which spends $4.7 million.

Vehicles are expensive too. Each house has its own fleet. Long Island has about 1,792 fire and EMS vehicles, according to the New York State Division of Homeland Security and Emergency. The FDNY has 792. At least 90 Long Island fire departments have heavy-duty rescue trucks that carry "the jaws of life" and cost about $800,000. The FDNY has 5, although every ladder company has "the jaws of life."

Wow. That's a lot of money and apparatus.

A volunteer firefighter told FOX 5: "It's very unfair what they are doing to the volunteers."

What about what the FD's are doing to taxpayers? Isn't it appropriate to focus on that?

]"What does it cost to save a life?" asked a volunteer who identified himself only as Jonathan.

Good question. Is there an answer to this? What FD's aren't paying enough and which ones are paying too much? I bet there is no answer and I bet none of these departments can demonstrate how efficient the current system is.

But everywhere on Long Island volunteer firefighters think merging fire departments is a bad idea.

"The ramifications of that are going to be slower response times," said Vincent BiFano, of the Huntington Manor District.

In Commack, Commissioner Pat Fazio said: "It's a very dense island and it's very populated, and I think each district has to do what it has to do."

Yet former FDNY Commissioner Von Essen said even though efficiency is likely to reduce response time, it is time for change.

Is there any study to show that response times would be slowed by consolidation or regionalization? Of course they think it would be a bad idea, it's their sandbox being threatened with reorganization.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Wow. That's a lot of money and apparatus.

What about what the FD's are doing to taxpayers? Isn't it appropriate to focus on that?

Good question. Is there an answer to this? What FD's aren't paying enough and which ones are paying too much? I bet there is no answer and I bet none of these departments can demonstrate how efficient the current system is.

Is there any study to show that response times would be slowed by consolidation or regionalization? Of course they think it would be a bad idea, it's their sandbox being threatened with reorganization.

Like you said in the Chiefs car post...this has been discussed before.

Consolidation is going to come to certain Depts. on LI in the future. The smaller Dept.s running under 300 alarms a year I would think in time will be merged with their larger neighbors. Gordon Heights is one that something must be done about. The tax is way out of line.

What is not mentioned is that in the long run it will not hurt response time, because whoever takes over the district will probably leave an Engine and ambulance in the station. The members would merge with the "other" Dept., membership would just wear a different patch on their class "A"'s. The firehouse would now say "XYZ Fire District" "Gordon Heights Fire Company".

My Dept. borders 2 very small Depts. If we were to "take over" those areas, in one case, we would keep the station and house an Engine and ambulance in it. The members would stay in their respective station or have an option to transfer to one of our other companies. The big problem would be for those Dept.s to loose Officers and Chiefs. But in the long run, they would be given a chance to advance in a larger Dept..

For a young kid just getting involved in the fire service who wouldnt want to be a part of a Dept. doing 1700 runs a year instead of 80-300 runs? It would be the older membership that would fight this tooth and nail.

Edited March 18, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[demps121 39]

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/spending-questioned-for-long-island-fire-districts-20110317

We in Westchester are not much better. Career or volunteer

Edited March 18, 2011 by demps121

[M' Ave 1,466]

When the numbers are broken down, it really looks terrible. Summed up, the FDNY protects 8x the population with 40% of the equipment. You can't get into a literal comparison, because it's apples and oranges, but those numbers certainly call for some sort of review. Response times don't HAVE to suffer either. You don't have to close down each firehouse, but you could reduce the equipment compliment by consolidation. Perhaps rescue companies could be made up of some sort of task force between multiple agencies. Maybe each dept. doesn't need to have a Rear-mount AND a platform. Two neighboring departments could make use of one each and have dual responses.

There are many ways to reduce an AMAZING redundancy of apparatus without hindering response times or levels of service.

8, 10, 15+ million dollar firehouses are a completely different story. I think a departments quarters should be nice and offer some comforts and maybe a luxury or two to entice guys to spend more time there. Thats fine. However, when I go to work in a 100+ year old firehouse that is LITERALLY crumbling, it makes you scratch your head at some of these palaces being built. Somehow 50 people (11 at a time) manage to work, eat, train and respond to many thousands of alarms each year out of this small and well worn firehouse. Plenty of volunteer organizations do quite well with comfortable and conservative quarters. If your willingness to participate hangs on how nice your firehouse is, you need to reevaluate your priorities.

Edited March 18, 2011 by M' Ave

[IzzyEng4 427]

This was already done by NEWSDAY back about 4 - 5 years ago. All the information is on their site. Its nothing new. More than likely it came back out again because of the problems over in Gordon Heights.

[38ff 250]

I'd like to thank the depts on LI that got the ball rolling with Newsday story several years ago. From the fallout, all districts in NYS now have a requirement to be externally audited yearly which costs on average $8,000- $10,000 dollars. Thats $ that could be better spent on training, equipment, etc. Even if you pass with flying colors this year, you still get the same audit the next, there is no "your in good shape, keep it up, and we'll be back in 2-3 years or so". $10,000 is 5 or 6 sets of gear, a bunch of portable radios, or a days worth of good training.

Im all for accountability in districts, but NYS is punishing ALL of them for a few bad apples, and we all must pay the price, litterally.

[M' Ave 1,466]

I'd like to thank the depts on LI that got the ball rolling with Newsday story several years ago. From the fallout, all districts in NYS now have a requirement to be externally audited yearly which costs on average $8,000- $10,000 dollars. Thats $ that could be better spent on training, equipment, etc. Even if you pass with flying colors this year, you still get the same audit the next, there is no "your in good shape, keep it up, and we'll be back in 2-3 years or so". $10,000 is 5 or 6 sets of gear, a bunch of portable radios, or a days worth of good training.

Im all for accountability in districts, but NYS is punishing ALL of them for a few bad apples, and we all must pay the price, litterally.

Money is always an issue for most fire departments and I certainly agree that you could do great things with 8-10,000 dollars. Really, that cost shouldn't eat into your budget, you just have to put it in as a new line for the bean counters. Accountability is essential to the smooth operation of any organization. Every company from a Fortune 500 to the smallest business is audited annually. It's a component of being professional and organized.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

180 fire departments at 1.5 million dollars a year is 270 MILLION or over a quarter BILLION dollars a year.

You could have ten departments at half the cost.

If my taxes for just the fd were as high as some on long island I'd refuse to pay. It is out of control.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

180 fire departments at 1.5 million dollars a year is 270 MILLION or over a quarter BILLION dollars a year.

You could have ten departments at half the cost.

If my taxes for just the fd were as high as some on long island I'd refuse to pay. It is out of control.

Fact is almost all the taxes for FD service on LI are one of the lowest tax line on the tax bill. The Gordon Heights bill is 2 to 3 times higher then everyone else. It is THE highest on LI. Don't use them as an example.

Edited March 19, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[wedgeclose 59]

Am a VAC retired life member. We run close to 2500 calls per year. Ever been to a firemans parade? Check out how many ladders are in it? Every department does not need 2 ladders...some have 2...most have one....most need none. If there is a ladder company in the next town which most likely is only a mile or two away there is no need to have 6 ladders within a 5 mile radius in the suburbs of Long Island or Westchester. Ever look at the size of the Rescues...same deal....don't need a rescue in every town, village or neighborhood for less than 6 extrications a year and rarely if ever a double call within a 3 town radius. I love our volunteer fire department...they are top notch..but they are over equipped for anything we are ever going to need that can't be gotten just as quickly from mutual aid without stripping the neighboring towns.

[38ff 250]

I have no problem with audits or accountability, i just wish the state would foot them bill for the unfunded mandate.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I agree on the rescue trucks. Unless you run a specialized unit, for TRT incidents you do not need a Box rescue rig. Back in the day you needed these rigs to carry alot of the equipment you couldnt fit on Engines and Ladders of the day. Now the rigs are much bigger and offer a much larger array of cabinet space. Today's rescue pumpers and ladders now can accommodate any sort of extrication tools needed plus generator and lighting systems the older rigs could not. Very rare nowadays to see dedicated Flood light rigs anymore, specialty lighting has been designed into the new apparatus.

Alot of the problem comes down to the companies that run these rigs in many Depts are a separate "Rescue Company" or "Patrol" in your neck of the woods. Get rid of the rig, you get rid of the company and all the history that goes with it. I know times are different and things need to change, trust me I GET IT, but its not that easy to just disband an 100 year old company just like that. Believe it or not there are a few Depts in Nassau County that have "taken" the Rescue rig away from the Rescue Company because of declining memberships and other reasons, or have spec'd out rescue pumpers to replace box trucks.

Edited March 20, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Those budgets are insane.

The money could easily pay for an island wide, countywide or a number of smaller career departments. They would have a better service for less money. (That is not a bash on vollies- How many vollie departments are staffed 24-7?) Paying more to get less doesnt make any sense.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Those budgets are insane.

The money could easily pay for an island wide, countywide or a number of smaller career departments. They would have a better service for less money. (That is not a bash on vollies- How many vollie departments are staffed 24-7?) Paying more to get less doesnt make any sense.

This has never had anything to do with making a career Dept. Consolidation in fact would make the volunteer system stronger. You cant compare FDNY to LI its Apples and Oranges, I guess you are a FDNY guy with the name FDNY 10-75?

Edited March 20, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[FDNY 10-75 640]

I was NOT making a comparison to the FDNY. I am not otj in The City (I made the user name when I was a younger buff and havent bothered to change it).

I thought I was clear, but they would save taxpayers a disgusting amount of money by getting rid of most if not all of those departments and providing a paid service. The service would be better too (or at least more reliable).

I would also like to add that there are no 19 million dollar firehouses around here and no multi million dollar budgets for the volunteer departments, and they put the fires out just fine.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I was NOT making a comparison to the FDNY. I am not otj in The City (I made the user name when I was a younger buff and havent bothered to change it).

I thought I was clear, but they would save taxpayers a disgusting amount of money by getting rid of most if not all of those departments and providing a paid service. The service would be better too (or at least more reliable).

This is not true, in some cases maybe a few career members would help, but to switch to a an all paid service, no way. As I said, the outrageous tax bill, that started this whole thing, is a single case. This is not the case in most places. Fact is the neighbors in Gordon Heights want taxes like the surrounding districts. Those taxes are the norm for LI. They would be happy with the tax base of the other districts.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

This is not true, in some cases maybe a few career members would help, but to switch to a an all paid service, no way. As I said, the outrageous tax bill, that started this whole thing, is a single case. This is not the case in most places. Fact is the neighbors in Gordon Heights want taxes like the surrounding districts. Those taxes are the norm for LI. They would be happy with the tax base of the other districts.

I understand that, but why pay for the duplication of services? Dozens of ladders and rescues? Why not eliminate it. You can't even make an argument that it is necessary. Especially when these departments aren't guaranteed to get a truck off the floor (I'm sure they do, but there is no guarantee). As I keep saying, why pay more for less? The districts around here get by just fine with much less.

This is just my opinion, any argument over the internet isn't going to change it...

[LTNRFD 266]

Especially when these departments aren't guaranteed to get a truck off the floor (I'm sure they do, but there is no guarantee).

This is just my opinion, any argument over the internet isn't going to change it...

And there is no guarantee that a career department can ALWAYS get the rig out the door either.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

And there is no guarantee that a career department can ALWAYS get the rig out the door either.

There is no guarantee in anything, but your chances of getting a career rig out are a lot better...

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Part of the problem goes way back. It's the history of the development of the Volunteer FD's in this area. 100 years ago multiple companies would form in a community, sometimes stations were built in close proximity's to each other, usual built up around the "town center", where most of the "action" and population would be. The companies would be more then community oriented they would be rivals, and fight each other to get the first water on a fire. "Dont join Engine 1", "Lets start our own company", and it was cheap to do so. How many Depts have a Engine 1, Hose 1, ladder 1, even a Steamer co. 1, no one wanted to be #2. Back in the day when things were cheap, what community would not want to be protected by their own well equipped FD.. 3 to 5 Engines 1- 2 Ladders ect... These Depts would be running a fraction of what we do today. The next town over would want the same well equipped FD as their neighbor, and why not.

Fast forward 50 years and the money is now way out of whack, so the answer is to cut companies to save money. The way we look at our past history must be adjusted. Like other have stated, its better to make the changes on our terms, or at least close to them rather then having someone else come in and really screw it up.

Edited March 20, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[ffp20 14]

Fact is almost all the taxes for FD service on LI are one of the lowest tax line on the tax bill. The Gordon Heights bill is 2 to 3 times higher then everyone else. It is THE highest on LI. Don't use them as an example.

saying its lowest still doesnt make if ok if its excessive.

[ffp20 14]

I have no problem with audits or accountability, i just wish the state would foot them bill for the unfunded mandate.

why should someone else pay for making sure you're doing the right thing with your budgets????

[ffp20 14]

I was NOT making a comparison to the FDNY. I am not otj in The City (I made the user name when I was a younger buff and havent bothered to change it).

I thought I was clear, but they would save taxpayers a disgusting amount of money by getting rid of most if not all of those departments and providing a paid service. The service would be better too (or at least more reliable).

I would also like to add that there are no 19 million dollar firehouses around here and no multi million dollar budgets for the volunteer departments, and they put the fires out just fine.

Hey man, there are quite a few with million plus budgets.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

There is no guarantee in anything, but your chances of getting a career rig out are a lot better...

The other thing everyone always does is compare to FDNY which you cant. If a career or combo Dept would form in a LI town it would be like the combo Depts already in Nassau of Garden City (which just cut its daytime career staff from 6 to 5) and Long Beach with 4 on duty, 2 of which spend almost all day running an ambulance. Or like the small combo's in Westchester. With manpower of 2 or 3 on an Engine 1 or 2 on a Ladder. Dont compare FDNY #'s. They are the only Dept, in the country running a 6 man Ladder and 5 man Engine.

The Dept.s in my area get more manpower out to an alarm then if you made us a career Dept. Of course we are not the norm but it is what it is.

The salary range would be that of existing area staff $80,000-$100,000 for a regular F/F. How many could you hire before you start wanting to lay off. Remember those #'s will never go down.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

saying its lowest still doesnt make if ok if its excessive.

Correct, but lets start at the top. School taxes.