DISCUSSION: Pelham Manor/Bronx Bus MCI - 03-12-11

[Steve 78]

Being on the boarder of Westchester and the Bronx, did any Westchester agencies respond to this incident.

[X2321 133]

The only thing Westchester got out of this was the traffic. This accident actually started in Pelham Manor and ended just over the line in the Bronx. It would have been interesting to see how Westchester would have handled this. Here are some photos http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=BH&Dato=20110312&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=103120810&Ref=PH

[ttomcap 18]

Pelham Manor with mutual aid assstance would have done a good job.

[StOpGoBlUE 11]

empress sent an als bus

[ny10570 745]

Wasn't there a recent MCI on the highway in the Sound Shore area? How long would it take Westchester to mobilize 10 transporting units?

Luckily available units are not hard to come by in the North Bronx early on a Saturday morning. On a Monday afternoon when jobs are already holding it'd be a very different nightmare.

[x635 4,066]

Interesting article about the responders:

Crash trauma affects responders, too

12:09 AM, Mar. 13, 2011

Emergency workers are trained to be ready for anything, but nothing can prepare a person for the sight of 14 mangled bodies and dozens of critically injured victims.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20110313/NEWS02/103130366/Though-trained-responders-moved-by-gruesome-scene?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

[Dinosaur 844]

Pelham Manor with mutual aid assstance would have done a good job.

Tom, your faith in Pelham Manor is admirable but be realistic. What does Pelham Manor have on duty, one and one with two guys each? No rescue, no EMS but a contract bus. Mutual aid would get you more stuff but how fast and how organized and disciplined would it be? New Rochelle has a rescue, 3 more guys. FDMV has one (I think), 3 more guys. Call Yonkers and you'll get some real help but its at least 20-25 minutes away if the call was quick. Then what? You can piece together a response but you'll be spending more time figuring out who to call from where then you'll spend being the IC.

Look at what NYC sent to the scene (not counting PD that had at least four ESU trucks there or EMS):

Rundown:

Engine 63, 97, 61, 66, 89, 90

Ladder 39, 50, 32 (F.A.S.T.), 27 (Collapse Rig), 61, 37, 41

Rescue 3, 4

Battalion 20, 27

Division 7

L32 Fast

B27

RAC 3

06:06 hours

B20: Special request 2 additional trucks, mixer off.

L41, L37 s/c

06:10 hours

D7: Request 2 additional CFR-D engines

E89, E90 s/c

Disp confirmed to Rescue Battalion that second rescue (R4) was assigned to the box.

06:19 hours

Car 13 adam responding to the overturned bus.

06:31 hours

Car 1B is 10-84

07:07 hours

D7: Request squad and second piece to deal with fuel from the accident

Hazmat 1, Squad 41, Hazmat Battalion s/c

By my rough count its about 120 firefighters including bosses. What would it take to muster that anywhere in Westchester or the rest of the Hudson Valley? Add to that the expertise and experience that the city guys have. Again not a knock on the guys from Westchester but NYC does more in a month than some jobs do in a year.

They had everyone extricated in a hour and I bet most of them transported in that time too. Have you ever been to an airport exercise in Westchester? They can't transport that many people in an hour during an exercise. Imagine reality.

[M' Ave 1,466]

thats funny

Is this a dig? If so, it's not particularly constructive... In fact, there is nothing funny about it, but it raises a real concern.

This is not to call into question the dedication of a particular organization's firemen, nor their professionalism and drive. Really, it doesn't need to be discussed in relation to ANY particular fire department. What an MCI such as this might highlight is a need for an MCI response plan that includes multiple agencies......or some kind of consolidation to form a larger agency with the means and necessity for more equipment.

I did not respond to this box yesterday, but I was at work and listening. There were an incredible amount of units on the scene to mitigate this disaster. Rescues 3 and 4 operated including, at least Collapse Rescue 3. That's 12 firemen, on top of an entire first alarm assignment. 39 pairs of hands. Add to that a few chief's and their aides, plus ESU and a FAST truck (Which sounds like a good idea to me when you have members working in a large, unstable and overturned bus). Top that off with 10+ EMS units, FDNY RAC 4 with temp. morgue set-up and Haz-Mat 1 to manage the fuel containment. That was all within the first few minutes. Many more followed. I'm sure you can up the tally with a great deal of DOT and Police units.

All of these resources and they had their hands full. These are people used to working together with a great deal of equipment at their disposal. More equipment than most Westchester Dept's. (outside of the bigger cities, Yonkers, NR, ect) have. So, what do you do? Who calls for what units and equipment? This seems like a perfect example of a need to utilize some kind of automatic response matrix with multiple F.D., P.D. and EMS agencies with a predetermined I.C. to maintain organization.

Clearly, and thankfully, this is an oddball event and no one knows exactly what to expect or how to perfectly handle each incident. However, it would be a good idea to consider what MIGHT be needed so that the proper personnel and apparatus are alerted quickly.

Edited March 13, 2011 by M' Ave

[bad box 371]

Tom, your faith in Pelham Manor is admirable but be realistic. What does Pelham Manor have on duty, one and one with two guys each? No rescue, no EMS but a contract bus. Mutual aid would get you more stuff but how fast and how organized and disciplined would it be? New Rochelle has a rescue, 3 more guys. FDMV has one (I think), 3 more guys. Call Yonkers and you'll get some real help but its at least 20-25 minutes away if the call was quick. Then what? You can piece together a response but you'll be spending more time figuring out who to call from where then you'll spend being the IC.

Look at what NYC sent to the scene (not counting PD that had at least four ESU trucks there or EMS):

By my rough count its about 120 firefighters including bosses. What would it take to muster that anywhere in Westchester or the rest of the Hudson Valley? Add to that the expertise and experience that the city guys have. Again not a knock on the guys from Westchester but NYC does more in a month than some jobs do in a year.

They had everyone extricated in a hour and I bet most of them transported in that time too. Have you ever been to an airport exercise in Westchester? They can't transport that many people in an hour during an exercise. Imagine reality.

In the event of major fires, technical rescues and MCI's, Westchester County Departments that border the Bronx can rely upon mutual aid resources from F.D.N.Y.. But, there are probably more areas in N.Y.S. than not that would be hard pressed to deal with a major transportation incident (bus, train, commercial airliner) in a timely ('Golden Hour' ... if they still call it that ...) manner. As pointed out in this thread, such incidents require the immediate response of large numbers of Fire and EMS personnel for scene safety / hazard control, FAST, fire protection, patient care, gaining access, disentanglement, extrication, treatment and transportation of the injured. There are lot's of other issues that also need to be addressed (traffic & crowd control, coroner / temporary morgue, utility company, heavy tow, DOT and the list goes on). As has already been pointed out, this is not a shot at the individual knowledge, skills and dedication of Fire and EMS personnel in such locations ... it's just acknowledging the reality that many areas are not staffed and equipped to do what needs to be done when a 'nightmare' occurs in their response area.

[ttomcap 18]

Pelham Manor with mutual aid assstance would have done a good job.

The guy who started this is a volunteer from Rockland county. He should worry about what would have happened if it happened on the N.Y.S. thruway. I'm sure N.Y.City would have been on the scene even if the accident was in Westchester.

[NWFDMedic 58]

It sure seems like the FDNY did a great job here. I just have one general question. This accident occurred within yards of the Westchester border yet it seems no Westchester resources were used. FDNY obviously has the resources to handle this incident, but wouldn't it make more sense to pull a closer Westchester unit than a far away FDNY unit just to keep the incident all FDNY? Obviously, the specialty resources are going to come from the City, but if there's an ALS ambulance 2 minutes away in Pelham, why wait for one that's 15 minutes away on the other side of the Bronx?

[firstdueorback2bed 0]

It sure seems like the FDNY did a great job here. I just have one general question. This accident occurred within yards of the Westchester border yet it seems no Westchester resources were used. FDNY obviously has the resources to handle this incident, but wouldn't it make more sense to pull a closer Westchester unit than a far away FDNY unit just to keep the incident all FDNY? Obviously, the specialty resources are going to come from the City, but if there's an ALS ambulance 2 minutes away in Pelham, why wait for one that's 15 minutes away on the other side of the Bronx?

there are 10 fdny firehouses that are closer to that crash then any westchester dept.there isnt a dept in westchester that can handle something like that.

[LTNRFD 266]

Tom, your faith in Pelham Manor is admirable but be realistic. What does Pelham Manor have on duty, one and one with two guys each? No rescue, no EMS but a contract bus. Mutual aid would get you more stuff but how fast and how organized and disciplined would it be? New Rochelle has a rescue, 3 more guys. FDMV has one (I think), 3 more guys. Call Yonkers and you'll get some real help but its at least 20-25 minutes away if the call was quick. Then what? You can piece together a response but you'll be spending more time figuring out who to call from where then you'll spend being the IC.

Look at what NYC sent to the scene (not counting PD that had at least four ESU trucks there or EMS):

By my rough count its about 120 firefighters including bosses. What would it take to muster that anywhere in Westchester or the rest of the Hudson Valley? Add to that the expertise and experience that the city guys have. Again not a knock on the guys from Westchester but NYC does more in a month than some jobs do in a year.

They had everyone extricated in a hour and I bet most of them transported in that time too. Have you ever been to an airport exercise in Westchester? They can't transport that many people in an hour during an exercise. Imagine reality.

All of these resources and they had their hands full. These are people used to working together with a great deal of equipment at their disposal. More equipment than most Westchester Dept's. (outside of the bigger cities, Yonkers, NR, ect) have. So, what do you do? Who calls for what units and equipment? This seems like a perfect example of a need to utilize some kind of automatic response matrix with multiple F.D., P.D. and EMS agencies with a predetermined I.C. to maintain organization.

Clearly, and thankfully, this is an oddball event and no one knows exactly what to expect or how to perfectly handle each incident. However, it would be a good idea to consider what MIGHT be needed so that the proper personnel and apparatus are alerted quickly.

All I can say to this is timing is everything. Saturday morning and not much else happening in the Bronx. I would sure hope FDNY could get all of those resources to that location. The only thing that your run down doesn't show is the on scene time of ALL of the units. How long does it take to get ALL of the apparatus and manpower on the scene. It was almost at the farthest Northeast point of the Bronx.

You mentioned Pelham Manor FD and what can they do. Back in the early 1980's on a hot Sunday afternoon around 4 PM of the 4th of July weekend, there was a 2 car MCI at almost that exact spot. Actually it was at the turn-a-round about 100 yards east of the bus crash site. There was 9 total patients, of which 4-5 were critical with the remaining patients, none were walking wounded. All patient were boarded. 2 of the critical were in respiratory arrest on the scene. Both from blocked airways. NYSP and NYPD were on scene. New Rochelle Amb 1 was dispatched and was the first unit other than the 1 NYSP unit and the Hwy 1 unit on the scene. Because the accident was in the Bronx, The Hwy 1 unit was advised to have FDNY, and NYC EMS respond to the scene. The HWY 1 unit had already called for emergency services and he advised that NYC had no EMS units available in the Bronx that could respond. A triage unit out of Jacobi was en route. At this point NR Amb 1 requested through NRPD dispatcher that 4-5 additional ambulances were needed. 3 additional ambulances from Westchester were on scene in 10 minutes and while waiting for an update of the ETA of the 4th ambulance, a BLS unit from Misericordia Hospital showed up. All of the Westchester ambulances (4) were ALS. The Bronx unit advised that if they weren't needed they were to become available because there were no other in service units for the entire Bronx.

At this point fire units started to arrive. 2 engines from Pelham Manor. They were asked if FDNY was on the way. They stated that FDNY called them and requested that they respond because no fire units available in the Bronx. Units from Queens were responding.

The triage unit from NYC EMS had the Misericordia unit take the 2 least injured to Jacobi. The triage unit then advised the remaining on scene ambulances that Jacobi can not handle any other patients and to transport the remaining patients to Westchester hospitals. The remaining 7 patients were transported to New Rochelle Hospital.

The total on scene time was less than 25 minutes from arrival of the 1st ambulance till the last patient was transported. At the time that the last patient was removed from the scene, no FDNY fire units were on scene. It is not know if they were still en route from Queens or they were told to go in service.

As I said at the beginning of my comments....."timing is everything"

[bad box 371]

All I can say to this is timing is everything. Saturday morning and not much else happening in the Bronx. I would sure hope FDNY could get all of those resources to that location. The only thing that your run down doesn't show is the on scene time of ALL of the units. How long does it take to get ALL of the apparatus and manpower on the scene. It was almost at the farthest Northeast point of the Bronx.

You mentioned Pelham Manor FD and what can they do. Back in the early 1980's on a hot Sunday afternoon around 4 PM of the 4th of July weekend, there was a 2 car MCI at almost that exact spot. Actually it was at the turn-a-round about 100 yards east of the bus crash site. There was 9 total patients, of which 4-5 were critical with the remaining patients, none were walking wounded. All patient were boarded. 2 of the critical were in respiratory arrest on the scene. Both from blocked airways. NYSP and NYPD were on scene. New Rochelle Amb 1 was dispatched and was the first unit other than the 1 NYSP unit and the Hwy 1 unit on the scene. Because the accident was in the Bronx, The Hwy 1 unit was advised to have FDNY, and NYC EMS respond to the scene. The HWY 1 unit had already called for emergency services and he advised that NYC had no EMS units available in the Bronx that could respond. A triage unit out of Jacobi was en route. At this point NR Amb 1 requested through NRPD dispatcher that 4-5 additional ambulances were needed. 3 additional ambulances from Westchester were on scene in 10 minutes and while waiting for an update of the ETA of the 4th ambulance, a BLS unit from Misericordia Hospital showed up. All of the Westchester ambulances (4) were ALS. The Bronx unit advised that if they weren't needed they were to become available because there were no other in service units for the entire Bronx.

At this point fire units started to arrive. 2 engines from Pelham Manor. They were asked if FDNY was on the way. They stated that FDNY called them and requested that they respond because no fire units available in the Bronx. Units from Queens were responding.

The triage unit from NYC EMS had the Misericordia unit take the 2 least injured to Jacobi. The triage unit then advised the remaining on scene ambulances that Jacobi can not handle any other patients and to transport the remaining patients to Westchester hospitals. The remaining 7 patients were transported to New Rochelle Hospital.

The total on scene time was less than 25 minutes from arrival of the 1st ambulance till the last patient was transported. At the time that the last patient was removed from the scene, no FDNY fire units were on scene. It is not know if they were still en route from Queens or they were told to go in service.

As I said at the beginning of my comments....."timing is everything"

July 4th back in the 1980's would generally find F.D.N.Y. strapped for resources due to a tremendous amount of fireworks related structural fires. Even with additional reserve companies in service, the workload was ridiculous. That being said, barring very unusual circumstances the F.D.N.Y. is a tremendous resource that can arrive at an incident within minutes with trained, experienced personnel and the equipment that goes along with it.

[ny10570 745]

Its a very different City and very different FD from 1980 to 2011. FDNY didn't do anything to keep Westchester units out. The calls came in identifying the accident in the Bronx. When accidents are received identifying accidents in Westchester they are forwarded to 60. I haven't been to work yet to catch a rundown of the EMS units assigned however if they're hustling and at their assigned location there are 4 ALS units that can be there in 5 minutes and another 5 that can be there under 10. In 20 minutes you can have just about every ALS unit in the Bronx. Then there are the 17 BLS units in the surrounding area. Even on the busiest Friday night buy 5 or 6 am things have quieted down and most crews are available.

[bigrig77 95]

I think the problem that the upstate boys are missing, is that FDNY is an anomaly. They are the exception to every rule there is. These guys roll with fully staffed rigs, a superb compliment of tools, and a great scene support structure (ie. EMS, PD,..). I think that you (firstdueorback2bed) are confusing the real world with the FDNY world you live in that says all FD's are FDNY. Name another department in the WORLD that has this many fire houses and staffing? Oh that's right, THERE ARE NONE!! How you gonna handle this type of incident up there when a bus from Chinatown that is going to Woodbury Commons does the same thing? It is completely possible. Bet you will be showing up and after blowing chow for a little while from what you see in that bus, you will go back to your actual job and talk a big game about how you were at the "big one". Is Westchester's system a little out of whack? YA, but no more then any other department in this country. Most Westchester career FD's get more done with less then some of these Vols departments do with all their shiny new rigs and latest greatest little toys.

[NWFDMedic 58]

I think the problem that the upstate boys are missing, is that FDNY is an anomaly. They are the exception to every rule there is. These guys roll with fully staffed rigs, a superb compliment of tools, and a great scene support structure (ie. EMS, PD,..). I think that you (firstdueorback2bed) are confusing the real world with the FDNY world you live in that says all FD's are FDNY. Name another department in the WORLD that has this many fire houses and staffing? Oh that's right, THERE ARE NONE!! How you gonna handle this type of incident up there when a bus from Chinatown that is going to Woodbury Commons does the same thing? It is completely possible. Bet you will be showing up and after blowing chow for a little while from what you see in that bus, you will go back to your actual job and talk a big game about how you were at the "big one". Is Westchester's system a little out of whack? YA, but no more then any other department in this country. Most Westchester career FD's get more done with less then some of these Vols departments do with all their shiny new rigs and latest greatest little toys.

Why the inflammatory response to people who are just asking questions? From what I've heard, FDNY did a great job managing the incident. However, to insinuate that us "upstaters" would be blowing chow if we came upon a similar incident is just ridiculous. I can remember as far back as 1989 when a bunch of volunteers assisted by a small (at the time) commercial EMS service, managed a school collapse and had all the patients to definitive care within 60 minutes. FDNY is very well trained, but they don't hold the patent on capable responders.

[v85 212]

I think the problem that the upstate boys are missing, is that FDNY is an anomaly. They are the exception to every rule there is. These guys roll with fully staffed rigs, a superb compliment of tools, and a great scene support structure (ie. EMS, PD,..). I think that you (firstdueorback2bed) are confusing the real world with the FDNY world you live in that says all FD's are FDNY. Name another department in the WORLD that has this many fire houses and staffing? Oh that's right, THERE ARE NONE!! How you gonna handle this type of incident up there when a bus from Chinatown that is going to Woodbury Commons does the same thing? It is completely possible. Bet you will be showing up and after blowing chow for a little while from what you see in that bus, you will go back to your actual job and talk a big game about how you were at the "big one". Is Westchester's system a little out of whack? YA, but no more then any other department in this country. Most Westchester career FD's get more done with less then some of these Vols departments do with all their shiny new rigs and latest greatest little toys.

How about this incident:

(Church van overturned in Cornwall)

http://articles.cnn....e-care?_s=PM:US

I know it wasn't as bad as the bus incident, but it was still a major MCI.

I also remember a situation even further upstate where a double decker bus hit a bridge, causing a similar situation and killing four, that was also dealt with by the local departments

Yes, the situation may have been uniquely and beneficially dealt with because it happened in NYC, but, to say that NYC is the only place that can deal with a situation like that.

Edited March 14, 2011 by v85

[ny10570 745]

How about this incident:

(Church van overturned in Cornwall)

http://articles.cnn....e-care?_s=PM:US

I know it wasn't as bad as the bus incident, but it was still a major MCI.

I also remember a situation even further upstate where a double decker bus hit a bridge, causing a similar situation and killing four, that was also dealt with by the local departments

Yes, the situation may have been uniquely and beneficially dealt with because it happened in NYC, but, to say that NYC is the only place that can deal with a situation like that.

No one is saying NYC has the monopoly on tragedy. The question is, how would Westchester do? Last week there were 60 patients after 2 buses and a motorcycle collided in the Lincoln tunnel. Between the Ct commuter buses, beeline, private charters, the discount buses, and then all the long distance bus lines this is a very real potential on Westchetser's highways. Unless this happens close to where FDNY would be accidentally dispatched help from the city can take a while.

Every time there's a major incident that has a strong potential for occurring in Westchester the same question comes up... "What would happen here?" Every time its the same results. The southern paid depts have all hazard plans, have drilled various major emergency scenarios, and have a scalable response matrix. No one else has a real MCI plan. I've participated in the airport drill once and watched the last one. Westchester does not have a functional major MCI plan.

[ttomcap 18]

How about this incident:

(Church van overturned in Cornwall)

http://articles.cnn....e-care?_s=PM:US

I know it wasn't as bad as the bus incident, but it was still a major MCI.

I also remember a situation even further upstate where a double decker bus hit a bridge, causing a similar situation and killing four, that was also dealt with by the local departments

Yes, the situation may have been uniquely and beneficially dealt with because it happened in NYC, but, to say that NYC is the only place that can deal with a situation like that.

[ttomcap 18]

The time I got for PM being dispatched was 6:21. That was almost an hour after the call came in. 60 control wasn't sure of the proper location. PM found the accident in the Bronx. N.Y.C was already operating.The call was in the Bronx and FDNY handled it. End of discussion.

[JBJ1202 27]

I listened to this come over on the Bronx North frequency. After they transmitted the 10-32 (ground transport incident) it was switched to Citywide. While monitoring for almost a hour it was clear that a major challenge for Westchester County EMS agencies at a similar incident would be EMS command. The initial response had the Division Captain and a lieutenant on it, with two additional lieutenants special called immediately upon arrival. The EMS command structure at MCIs is pretty set with it's designations (medical branch, treatment, transport, staging.. Etc) You just dont have that in most if not all other places in the area. How many EMS Supervisors are working at 6 am on a Saturday in Westchester? Until those officers can get on the scene you'd have to utilize on scene EMTs and Paramedics for those those positions, on top of patient care. FD would most likely assist with filling in the blanks until EMS could handle. Tremendous tasks at hands for all PD, EMS, and FD agencies.

Ive looked at this incident from the fire and EMS side and have discussed the potential for this to happen in my district specifically.

The fire response to this would include regular mutual aid departments for manpower and equipment, but multiple special units would be needed as well to performed the tasks stated above. Knowing who and what is available to you is key.

EMS would need a major mobilization to fulfill the needs for the incident. Maybe that means five ALS ambulances initially in my case, with additional BLS and ALS coming from secondary agencies. As stated above I feel the command side of EMS would be slow to develop simply because the resources just aren't available.

Just some thoughts...

JBJ

[Steve 78]

The guy who started this is a volunteer from Rockland county. He should worry about what would have happened if it happened on the N.Y.S. thruway. I'm sure N.Y.City would have been on the scene even if the accident was in Westchester.

ttomcap, my question was one of curiousity. I know that the accident actually first occurred in Westchester, so I was curious to know if Westchester was notified.

Just to let you know, that there are some depts in Rockland that see more work and do more runs then Pelham Manor.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This accident occurred within yards of the Westchester border yet it seems no Westchester resources were used. FDNY obviously has the resources to handle this incident, but wouldn't it make more sense to pull a closer Westchester unit than a far away FDNY unit just to keep the incident all FDNY? Obviously, the specialty resources are going to come from the City, but if there's an ALS ambulance 2 minutes away in Pelham, why wait for one that's 15 minutes away on the other side of the Bronx?

1) Pelham does not have an ambulance. They have an ALS flycar and for transport Empress dispatches an ambulance from Yonkers. And PMFD & 38m1 (the flycar) was spotted responding down I-95 at the time of the crash.

2) it is much easier to coordinate a single communities resources than the patchwork we call Westchester, even if resources are available. Too many people consider mutual aid is the end all solve all and in general its poor at best. We tried in Westchester to set up EMS command and task forces and we found we could not make it work.

[ffp20 14]

there are 10 fdny firehouses that are closer to that crash then any westchester dept.there isnt a dept in westchester that can handle something like that.

nor are there ANYWHERE in the hudson valley. especially during a weekday.

[JohnnyOV 2]

What is 60's protocol if any unit gets on scene, realizes they have an MCI, and need an additional 10+ ambulances. For VAC's that have 3 buses, do all 3 get stripped, or do they call 10 different VAC's with 1 unit to respond?

Either way, I'll stick to my guns of a county run paid EMS department is the way to go.

edit: even if its not a VAC, but say an empress unit out of Yonkers, how many get stripped from each municipality?

Edited March 14, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[firedude 985]

What is 60's protocol if any unit gets on scene, realizes they have an MCI, and need an additional 10+ ambulances. For VAC's that have 3 buses, do all 3 get stripped, or do they call 10 different VAC's with 1 unit to respond?

Either way, I'll stick to my guns of a county run paid EMS department is the way to go.

edit: even if its not a VAC, but say an empress unit out of Yonkers, how many get stripped from each municipality?

60 control and the EMS Bat. would organize a MA respones. They skip around and never take more then 1 bus from a district. Empress' Special Ops Div would have to be contacted to see what available resources they had for an MCI.

[antiquefirelt 994]

It would appear the real question, instead of hammering one FD here, would be could your own FD handle this incident? Likely, few could have done it alone without seriously compromising efficiency, limbs or lives. It's great that FDNY can and does handle incidents of greater magnitude than the rest of on their own, so well.

So, ask yourself: how would my FD handle tis? Who would we call? Can we all speak on common frequencies? What's the command structure going to look like? Will everyone play nice? We can take all the NIMS mandated course they'll throw at us and go to hundreds of one and two car wrecks, but in the end once it's outside your own resources control and coordination becomes much more difficult, those that do it regularly and train will be far ahead of the rest. And BTW, the public expects the same response FDNY gave anywhere that tour bus goes. Can your FD even come close?

[NWFDMedic 58]

How about this incident:

(Church van overturned in Cornwall)

http://articles.cnn....e-care?_s=PM:US

I know it wasn't as bad as the bus incident, but it was still a major MCI.

I also remember a situation even further upstate where a double decker bus hit a bridge, causing a similar situation and killing four, that was also dealt with by the local departments

Yes, the situation may have been uniquely and beneficially dealt with because it happened in NYC, but, to say that NYC is the only place that can deal with a situation like that.

You might want to pick another incident as an example of one that upstaters managed well.

[AMISHFF 26]

You clearly can not compare Westchester's response to one of NYC. They are a well oiled machine and able to pool many resources quickly and effectively. Westchesters emergency workers are hard working dedicated professionals, but do not have the shear numbers of emergency service workers trained to respond to this type of event and be able to pull it off in about an hour and a half. In reguards to specialized units FDNY and NYPD brought at least 20 specialists right off the bat. Not to include those regular companies who serve the highways and can be considered specialists themselves. Great job by all who were there and hope those gruesome sights fade quickly.