Health Coverage For Volunteer Firefighters

[Guest matty31]

Hello Fellow Fire Fighters

My name is Matt I'm a assistant chief in the upstate NY area,I've been in the fire service for 20 yrs and was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 2003,and have been through several different procedures since then including another brain tumor last year,being a VF I'm not covered like a paid Fire Fighter? But we are covered for every other thing that a career FF is.....Do you think VF should be covered the same as a paid Fire Fighter???? F.A.S.N.Y and the Senator is working hard to make a change to the VF Benefit Laws to cover all of us VF.Only time will tell when it gets to legislation it will be in there hand no matter how hard the fight,I pray this law is changed.Any opinions or thoughts feed back would be great.THANKS Matt

[JohnnyOV 2]

First let me say I am sorry for your situation, and hope all will end up well with you.

As a volunteer, I must disagree with you on this. I am a volunteer. Not a semi-paid guy who wants health, dental, a pension or other benefits for volunteering my time. Once you begin to receive benefits, you no longer are a volunteer, you are a compensated employee. You volunteer your time for the love of the service, not to get the benefits on the side. The tax break, and all other "breaks" we receive, to me, diminish the whole notion of what it means to actually volunteer.

[jack10562 414]

Most ( if not all ) volunteer firefighters are not given any health coverage by their fire district or municipality, unless it's for an injury or illness that occurs while responding to, or while on a call.

Career fire and EMS medical benefits are generally included as a part the employee total compensation package negotiated with the employer.

I seriously doubt we will ever see full health coverage apply to volunteers, any time soon. Who would pay for it, anyway?

[antiquefirelt 994]

Hello Fellow Fire Fighters

My name is Matt I'm a assistant chief in the upstate NY area,I've been in the fire service for 20 yrs and was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 2003,and have been through several different procedures since then including another brain tumor last year,being a VF I'm not covered like a paid Fire Fighter? But we are covered for every other thing that a career FF is.....Do you think VF should be covered the same as a paid Fire Fighter???? F.A.S.N.Y and the Senator is working hard to make a change to the VF Benefit Laws to cover all of us VF.Only time will tell when it gets to legislation it will be in there hand no matter how hard the fight,I pray this law is changed.Any opinions or thoughts feed back would be great.THANKS Matt

Matt, I'm very sorry to hear of your health issue. Please accept my sincerest hopes that your future finds no further issues.

As far as the career vs. volunteer coverage, I'm not seeing a direct line or corollary to your issue. Does your diagnosis indicate the problem was as a result as your duties as a firefighter? I'm pretty certain none of my "career firefighter specific benefits" would include an illness or injury that was not job-related. My healthcare benefits as an employee would. The difference is that my healthcare benefit as a career firefighter is the same as our police officers, public works crews, and clerical staff. I would assume that your healthcare plan provided by your primary employer would be key. Of course I know many do not have health insurance which is a huge issue we all struggle to answer. My point being my healthcare benefits as a career firefighter are really just healthcare benefits as an employee on a job where healthcare is offered and constantly renegotiated and adjusted. I must give you that I'm not a career firefighter in NY, but I know of no specific benefits that are only extended to career firefighters in my state.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

[Guest matty31]

First let me say I am sorry for your situation, and hope all will end up well with you.

As a volunteer, I must disagree with you on this. I am a volunteer. Not a semi-paid guy who wants health, dental, a pension or other benefits for volunteering my time. Once you begin to receive benefits, you no longer are a volunteer, you are a compensated employee. You volunteer your time for the love of the service, not to get the benefits on the side. The tax break, and all other "breaks" we receive, to me, diminish the whole notion of what it means to actually volunteer.

OK....So heaven forbid something bad happens to you in the line of duty as a VF you would expect NOTHING???You would just handle everything on your own health insurance? and when your unable to work you have that much money saved up to survive on your own with out your job,GOD bless you.I'm not looking for a pension, I love being a volunteer but when one of us go down then we should be taken care of correct? Under the VF benefit laws we're covered for all the same things as paid FF...except the brain cancer part never was put in. Tax breaks and all the other breaks please inform me on what they are?????????????.........Matt

[Alpinerunner 61]

OK....So heaven forbid something bad happens to you in the line of duty as a VF you would expect NOTHING???You would just handle everything on your own health insurance? and when your unable to work you have that much money saved up to survive on your own with out your job,GOD bless you.I'm not looking for a pension, I love being a volunteer but when one of us go down then we should be taken care of correct? Under the VF benefit laws we're covered for all the same things as paid FF...except the brain cancer part never was put in. Tax breaks and all the other breaks please inform me on what they are?????????????.........Matt

If you are hurt in the line of duty your health care costs are covered. You can also collect workman's comp. At least that's the case in my dept, and I'm pretty sure that's common.

[Alpinerunner 61]

If you are hurt in the line of duty your health care costs are covered. You can also collect workman's comp. At least that's the case in my dept, and I'm pretty sure that's common.

Health coverage is a significant expense for any employer and I doubt any municipality would provide that for volunteers. If they did, they would get A LOT of new members though, haha.

[ex-commish 490]

OK....So heaven forbid something bad happens to you in the line of duty as a VF you would expect NOTHING???You would just handle everything on your own health insurance? and when your unable to work you have that much money saved up to survive on your own with out your job,GOD bless you.I'm not looking for a pension, I love being a volunteer but when one of us go down then we should be taken care of correct? Under the VF benefit laws we're covered for all the same things as paid FF...except the brain cancer part never was put in. Tax breaks and all the other breaks please inform me on what they are?????????????.........Matt

Matt first let me say I am sorry to hear of your medical issues and hope for a better future for you. On the coverage issue. Unless there is a causal relationship between your tumors and your duties as a firefighter it would be up to your private insurance company to cover it. VFBL only covers line of duty injuries. Even for career firefighters if they are hurt on the job they are covered under 207-a ( correct me if I am wrong) and what ever illness or accident they sustain off duty would be handled by thier private insurance company which us usually a benefit they get as part of thier compensation package.

Now if you are asking that volunteers be afforded health insurance I believe there are programs where you can get jump on with your local municipality however you would have to pay for it but I believe it would be at a group rate. Again sorry for your dilemna

[FireMedic049 597]

Hello Fellow Fire Fighters

My name is Matt I'm a assistant chief in the upstate NY area,I've been in the fire service for 20 yrs and was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 2003,and have been through several different procedures since then including another brain tumor last year,being a VF I'm not covered like a paid Fire Fighter? But we are covered for every other thing that a career FF is.....Do you think VF should be covered the same as a paid Fire Fighter???? F.A.S.N.Y and the Senator is working hard to make a change to the VF Benefit Laws to cover all of us VF.Only time will tell when it gets to legislation it will be in there hand no matter how hard the fight,I pray this law is changed.Any opinions or thoughts feed back would be great.THANKS Matt

I may be wrong, but I believe your question is about equal access to "employer" provided medical care and benefits for job-related illness/injury.

I would say "yes" for the part, volunteers and career firefighters should have the same coverage for job-related illness and injury. Now, the tricky part comes when attempting to prove some illnesses are job-related, particularly something like cancer that may not have a clear cut "origin" like breaking your leg on scene would.

This difficulty is part of the reason why many states have enacted cancer presumption laws for firefighters. These laws basically say that we know firefighters are exposed to many different potential cancer causing sources during their career and therefore if they are diagnosed with cancer, then it is presumed to be job-related. My state is very close to finally enacting a cancer presumption law that the State Association for the IAFF members has been very active in pushing for adoption. Despite opportunities to get it passed sooner if the volunteers were removed from coverage, we refused.

The "problem" regarding coverage for volunteers for something like this can be that of demonstrating "exposure". With career FFs, it's pretty easy to show a consistent exposure to in-station sources plus there's often a higher number of potential "exposures" over time based on usually being busier than most VFDs. Where the issue often is from those that would be paying for any benefits, is that collectively volunteers don't have the same "uniform" exposure that career FFs do. Most VFDs have a few of those members that you hardly see or members that are more of a "helper" than an actual firefighter. Plus, most volunteers don't spend as much time actually in the station and exposed to the diesel exhaust (pre-ventilation systems). The working theory being that why should they pay benefits for a person who's illness is possibly not job-related (without a specific significant exposure event) since they may have had a low amount of cumulative exposure.

Also, my sympathies for your illness. Good luck.

Edited March 7, 2011 by FireMedic049

[RescueKujo 130]

You mean New York is not like California in that ANY cancer is considered "job related" for a firefighter, as you cannot prove or disprove which exposure caused the cancer?

[38ff 250]

First, Im sorry to hear you have a tumor. I hope you get better ASAP.

Secondly, I am a Volunteer FF and a Commissioner in my district. I just dont see how smaller disticts could afford full time health benefits. Even if thsy could and did, how would you figure out a plan to "give" the benefits. As soon as you sign up, your covered? What if you make 1 call a month and no drills, do you deserve the same coverage as the guys who are busting their butts at all the calls and drills? I can only see the line of new "volunteers" who would join just so they had health insurance, and do the absolute minimum to retain the coverage. Do you wait a year before giving them so see if the person makes thier LOSAP points (if your district does have LOSAP), then if they make them, they get coverage, and if they dont, they dont? What about the kids at college who are not in the district 8 months out of the year? do they deserve it? It's a whole can of worms that I think would be a mess to sort out.

[tdt560 1]

Matt,

I am sorry for your health issue and wish you the best.

As far as the Cancer "Presumption", that is a very tangled web. I am a career firefighter in a state with a Cancer Presumption Act and have seen first hand what a hassle it is to have cancer considered work related even in a presumption state. Despite the title that this act has it is certainly not "presumed" to be job related, it is still up the individual and the lawyer(s) to prove it was directly related to the job. All the State lawyers need to do is find out you smoked or used tobacco at some point in your life (we are prohibited from tobacco products in this state once we are hired) and all bets are off. The other tricky part is that the Cancer Presumption Act really doesn't take "effect" until you are on the job for 12 years. Just food for thought, I am not sure if this is the same case in other Presumption States.

[ffp20 14]

(Secondly, I am a Volunteer FF and a Commissioner in my district. I just dont see how smaller disticts could afford full time health benefits. Even if thsy could and did, how would you figure out a plan to "give" the benefits. As soon as you sign up, your covered? What if you make 1 call a month and no drills, do you deserve the same coverage as the guys who are busting their butts at all the calls and drills? I can only see the line of new "volunteers" who would join just so they had health insurance, and do the absolute minimum to retain the coverage. Do you wait a year before giving them so see if the person makes thier LOSAP points (if your district does have LOSAP), then if they make them, they get coverage, and if they dont, they dont? What about the kids at college who are not in the district 8 months out of the year? do they deserve it? It's a whole can of worms that I think would be a mess to sort out. )

If you had performance requirements of your members, you'd have your answer. If a person is interior qualified and maintains it, makes a required percentage of runs, does in station duty time, maintains apparatus qualifications, maintains training requirements, etc-they get the coverage. If they dont, they lose it.

I didnt mention exterior only members, fire police,etc cuz what depts really need most are INTERIOR firefighters. LOSAPS only keep older guys around on fire police and other less physically demanding tasks. LOSAPs have doen NOTHING to put interior qualified FIREFIGHTERS on the apparatus.

[FFPCogs 863]

Matt,

Like everyone else here I'm sorry to hear about your illness and hope that you recover fully and quickly.

And like most here I think that extending the same health coverage to volunteers or should I say payment for that coverage would be extremely difficult at best. Personally I think the only viable option would be to allow volunteer FFs to enroll and self pay in a municipality's group plan for it's employees. This might be helpful to some members such as those with no coverage or those who would pay less going thru the city as opposed to their employers. But the idea of having volunteer and career FFs recieveing the same health benefits becomes too complicated either because

1) it woud be a nightmare to maintain any such program based on participation (as 38ff pointed out) or

2) it would simply be too expensive for full coverage based solely on membership with no criteria to recieve the benefit.

That said I will address that IMO I think every active (i.e. particpating) or veteran volunteer FF should recieve whatever benefits their department's can legally secure for their services. For those who feel this is "against" what it means to volunteer, by all means they are entitled to that opinion, but they are also entitled to refuse or return any such benefits offered them if that is their personal belief.

Cogs

[ffp20 14]

Oh yes, cost would be a significant issue. Keep in mind many places are already paying significant costs for LOSAPs that dont work. Could those costs be better spent paying for programs that actually work?

[JohnnyOV 2]

OK....So heaven forbid something bad happens to you in the line of duty as a VF you would expect NOTHING???You would just handle everything on your own health insurance? and when your unable to work you have that much money saved up to survive on your own with out your job,GOD bless you.I'm not looking for a pension, I love being a volunteer but when one of us go down then we should be taken care of correct? Under the VF benefit laws we're covered for all the same things as paid FF...except the brain cancer part never was put in. Tax breaks and all the other breaks please inform me on what they are?????????????.........Matt

I'm not talking about workman's comp, I'm talking about health covereage such as Blue Cross Blue Shield which the department would pay into on a monthly basis. By Law, since you are en employee without pay by the district, they must supply you with workman's comp coverage. No where does it say that they have to supply health benefits.

And the "other tax break" is the $200 from NYS just for being a volunteer.

[38ff 250]

So we should only extend these benefits to a interior FF's only? What about those who drive the apparatus to the call? Are they not important? Thats a law suit waiting to happen right there.

When a memeber joins a FD, the LOSAP starts to collect info on points. So you'd need to wait a year or so to see if they make their points. What happens when a memeber starts slacking off mid year from calls/drills/etc.. Do you continue the coverage until the end of the year when you "officially" find out that they didnt make their points? Then you could be paying for insurance on "ghosts" that until the end of the year when the LOSAP is tallied. Is that fair to the tax payer or other FF's who do make the calls/drills/etc?

What about firefighter who are female that get pregnant? Continue thier coverage while they are unable to make calls in the few weeks or so after the pregnancy?

The whole issue is a can of worms with legal land mines at every step.

I think the best thing to do is see if the town that is covered by the district can extend health coverage that they provide to full time PD/highway/office staff/ect to FF's, and the FF pays in, but even that has it's own issues.

Edited March 8, 2011 by 38ff

[FFPCogs 863]

No where does it say that they have to supply health benefits.

And the "other tax break" is the $200 from NYS just for being a volunteer.

Nowhere in any State does it say they can't either.

I understand that some find any benefit offered to volunteers to be the antithesis of what it means to volunteer, and to an extent that is true. But by the same token new challenges require new thinking. As everyone knows volunteerism is down and while many (including myself) volunteer and neither want nor recieve any benefits, not everyone thinks as we do. To attract enough new members and keep the ones we have in the world of today means that we have to adapt to the realities of the situation we're in. That reality is that very few people do something for nothing today.

I'll be the first to admit that the jury is out on many incentives that have come down the pike, but not all programs are failures everywhere either. It may be time to reevaluate what is and isn't working. If it works keep it, if it doesn't find something new and try it. Remember that ultimately it is not volunteers who decide but the taxpayers, for they foot the bill for the service they get. Volunteers, even well compensated ones, still cost far far less than a full time career service, and it is up to the taxpayers to decide how and in what amount they want their money spent for their fire dept.

Just one last thing on this to reiterate what was already addressed. If any volunteer feels adamant that taking an incentive or benefit offered is morally, ethically or in any other way wrong than they can voluntarily not take it. That is their decision to make for themselves, but it is not one they can make for all volunteers.

To get back on topic, while I see the pratical application of coverage to be a difficult endeavor, it is also one that just might be worth the effort to the benefit of all volunteer FFs.

Cogs

[ffp20 14]

(So we should only extend these benefits to a interior FF's only? What about those who drive the apparatus to the call? Are they not important? Thats a law suit waiting to happen right there. )

I said in my post the group who qualifies also has to maintain their apparatus qualifications, so theres your drivers. Most have issues having enough interiors showing up, lack of "drivers" is less of an issue. My home towns issues are typical of those with LOSAPs. We have plenty of fire police cuz they're sticking around building losap points, and sometime collecting too. We have plenty of folks who are exterior only. But what we, and most other depts need most are INTERIOR FF's. if incentives arent getting and keeping them, there something wrong. Why should a guy who never has to lay his life on the line get the same incentives as the interior guy who does put himself at greater risk??? To get your losap points, you need to simply show up for some calls and attend some drills. thats it. The money that some depts spend on losaps i feel, can be better spent on incentives to get those who put out fires, not watch others do it. Maybe offering some assistance on their healthcare or other living expenses may make better sense. people that do less, get less. thats all, and, more fair to those who do more.

As far a law suit waiting to happen, how so????

[ffp20 14]

(So we should only extend these benefits to a interior FF's only? What about those who drive the apparatus to the call? Are they not important? Thats a law suit waiting to happen right there.)

If your exteior only, you'd get less or different benefits. exteriors and drivers are important, but are totally useless if theres nobody there to put out fires.

[38ff 250]

If you give some thing to one group and not to others, you have a good case for descrimination. The interior guy is fighting fire, the fire police guy is dealing with traffic. Both are inherently dangerous jobs in their own way. A fire police guy who stands infront of traffic is just as in peril as the interior guy who masks up and heads inside with a hose. With the volumes of "mask up, we're going inside to slay the red dragon" types of fires going down, some could argue that Fire Police are more often in danger.

Another example is what happens is some one WANTS to be interior, but cant because they are clastrophobic or have some medical issue that they cant get cleared by the district/dept doctor. Is the district discriminating against someone with a medical condition beyond their control? Some Americans with Disabilities Act lawyer would love that case...

Whats a OPFC or NYS law that defines who is "Interior"? You take FF1 and your good? You just need the Chief's say so after getting FF1? Do you need FF2 also? What about FF Saftey and Survival class? Thats a good one to take for interior guys.. Do you need what we called in the Army "Time in Grade?" What if those courses arent offered locally at the county or state level, or the classes are full? "I WANT to be interior, I just need the class, but it's full/not offered, but rest assured I'd take it if I could" Is it fair to deny that guy his insurance because he doesnt have the cert, but we all know he can do it? What about "dual hatters"? Guys who can drive AND go interior?

You'll need some very strict state guidelines as to definitions, and way more state classes to be offered.

This isnt as cut and dry as LOSAP is where it is basically "you show up, you sign in" regardless of what effort you may or may not of put into the call/drill/meeting.

If your going to give something to one "kind" or person and not another, you need to have a real good, defendable in court reason as to why.

Dont get me wrong, it would be a great thing to do for volunteers, but I dont see how it would happen financially or implimentation wise without TONS of forethought and clear definitions/standards and more $ being spent at the state/county level, which at this point in time I dont see happening.

In some depts I have seen in my county, there are more FF's than fire police.

Edited March 8, 2011 by 38ff

[Guest matty31]

If you give some thing to one group and not to others, you have a good case for descrimination. The interior guy is fighting fire, the fire police guy is dealing with traffic. Both are inherently dangerous jobs in their own way. A fire police guy who stands infront of traffic is just as in peril as the interior guy who masks up and heads inside with a hose. With the volumes of "mask up, we're going inside to slay the red dragon" types of fires going down, some could argue that Fire Police are more often in danger.

Another example is what happens is some one WANTS to be interior, but cant because they are clastrophobic or have some medical issue that they cant get cleared by the district/dept doctor. Is the district discriminating against someone with a medical condition beyond their control? Some Americans with Disabilities Act lawyer would love that case...

Whats a OPFC or NYS law that defines who is "Interior"? You take FF1 and your good? You just need the Chief's say so after getting FF1? Do you need FF2 also? What about FF Saftey and Survival class? Thats a good one to take for interior guys.. Do you need what we called in the Army "Time in Grade?" What if those courses arent offered locally at the county or state level, or the classes are full? "I WANT to be interior, I just need the class, but it's full/not offered, but rest assured I'd take it if I could" Is it fair to deny that guy his insurance because he doesnt have the cert, but we all know he can do it? What about "dual hatters"? Guys who can drive AND go interior?

You'll need some very strict state guidelines as to definitions, and way more state classes to be offered.

This isnt as cut and dry as LOSAP is where it is basically "you show up, you sign in" regardless of what effort you may or may not of put into the call/drill/meeting.

If your going to give something to one "kind" or person and not another, you need to have a real good, defendable in court reason as to why.

Dont get me wrong, it would be a great thing to do for volunteers, but I dont see how it would happen financially or implimentation wise without TONS of forethought and clear definitions/standards and more $ being spent at the state/county level, which at this point in time I dont see happening.

In some depts I have seen in my county, there are more FF's than fire police.

Hello and thank you. First off i do have my own health care from my job. My point isn't about health insurance to the VFs.

I don't know how many people on here have been struck by CANCER in any way shape or form but I have and it sucks!! I always have loved to Volunteer my time and do what ever it took things done! In 2003 that stopped. My style of living changed along with my life, my FAMILY and my KIDS. This all ended up in an ugly divorce. For the people who have been down this road you do know what a MONEY strain cancer brings on and short term disability is squat!! And to top it off we go to NYS for some form of help to keep food on the table and a roof over our head they sent us packing due to the prior years earnings....WTF???? So you see any help would have been great help giving that i give my time to protect and serve my district and get pissed on NO HELP.

SOoooo how do you expect me to feel????

[ffp20 14]

(If you give some thing to one group and not to others, you have a good case for descrimination)

Im gonna call ya on this by saying: BS!

descrimination based on what?

[ffp20 14]

(Another example is what happens is some one WANTS to be interior, but cant because they are clastrophobic or have some medical issue that they cant get cleared by the district/dept doctor. Is the district discriminating against someone with a medical condition beyond their control? Some Americans with Disabilities Act lawyer would love that case... )

Those and other medical conditions will prevent one from beoming a career FD. Is it discrimination there? You're grasping for straws here sir.

[ffp20 14]

(hats a OPFC or NYS law that defines who is "Interior"? You take FF1 and your good? You just need the Chief's say so after getting FF1? Do you need FF2 also? What about FF Saftey and Survival class? Thats a good one to take for interior guys.. Do you need what we called in the Army "Time in Grade?" What if those courses arent offered locally at the county or state level, or the classes are full? "I WANT to be interior, I just need the class, but it's full/not offered, but rest assured I'd take it if I could" Is it fair to deny that guy his insurance because he doesnt have the cert, but we all know he can do it? What about "dual hatters"? Guys who can drive AND go interior?)

If ya cant into a class, you have no other choice but to wait for one or go someplace where its offered. A sizable percentage of classes in this area gewt cancelled due to not having enough students. Frankly now your escaping the reality of whats going on these days in the fire service.

regarding is it fair: what business are we in?

Using your logic if i cant get into an EMT class 'cuz its full the ambulance squad shouldnt require me to be an EMT, which is rediculous. Or better yet like what i heard one time from a member: "you cant do daytime drills 'cuz i work during the day and cant attend and its not fair to me." I shot back with; "well you cant have night time drills then 'cuz i work nights and i cant attend and its not fair to me." That ended the conversation. If we arent going to do something 'cuz it might be unfair to a member for a short period of time and have the rest of the organization suffer, we may as well just close the doors.

[ffp20 14]

(Guys who can drive AND go interior?) in my first post, i said maintaining AND keeping qualified on the apparatus along with maintaining interior status would be needed.

In other words, back to my original post: to get a premium level of incentive, you must maintain the premium level of qualification and performance.

any thing less earns a lesser grade of incentive. To me, thats fair.

[38ff 250]

I like you how cut and paste only certain parts of my posts.

Go ask and decent lawyer about discrimination. If you have all the "Interior" FF's (and you didnt address any of the how do we figure out a statewide standard for whats whats "interior" or "premium leve of service" in your words and whats not) stand on one side of the room and everyone else on the other, and give only the interior benefits, your descriminating against those who arent.

In my county, satewide courses are few and far between, or over an hour away. Is it the indivduals fault, no. It's the county/states. So we dotn give that person benefits even though it's not their fault. Thats not right.

When my dept gets slots, we fill every single one, and have a waiting list. We do as much in house training as we can, but without NYS certs, that doesnt matter much as far as official defendable training in a court of law.

At any rate, this is all a moot point because I have no idea how most smaller districts could pay for it all. They would need to add paid office staff just to keep tabs on it all.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'll be the first to admit that the jury is out on many incentives that have come down the pike, but not all programs are failures everywhere either. It may be time to reevaluate what is and isn't working. If it works keep it, if it doesn't find something new and try it.

The only problem with finding (and paying for) new incentives is the LOSAP program, once adopted must payout at the end and even if the dept went 100% paid because of no volunteers, money will still need to be spent on past "earnings". The LOSAP program was designed as a shop up today and we will pay you later system.

Remember that ultimately it is not volunteers who decide but the taxpayers, for they foot the bill for the service they get.

Yes the taxpayers foot the bill, but that does not mean they decide on anything. There are many studies in NYS (By the Comptroller & by the commission on governmental efficiencies) that have shown that very few members of the general public, vote in Fire District Elections or on budget and other items. In municipal depts, there is almost no comment by the general public about the FD. In Westchester their are FD's that have ignored the will of the voters on more than one occasion (particularly when spending large amounts of money).

[Bnechis 3,961]

Go ask and decent lawyer about discrimination. If you have all the "Interior" FF's (and you didnt address any of the how do we figure out a statewide standard for whats whats "interior" or "premium leve of service" in your words and whats not) stand on one side of the room and everyone else on the other, and give only the interior benefits, your descriminating against those who arent.

"Interior" and "exterior" are not considered protected classes by the courts. So in effect you can legal treat them different and its not considered discrimination.

The following characteristics are considered "Protected Classes" and persons cannot be discriminated against based on these characteristics:

Race - Federal: Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Civil Rights Act of 1866

Color - Federal: Civil Rights Act of 1964

Religion - Federal: Civil Rights Act of 1964

National origin - Federal: Civil Rights Act of 1964

Age (40 and over) - Federal: Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967

Sex - Federal: Equal Pay Act of 1963 & Civil Rights Act of 1964

Familial status (Housing, cannot discriminate for having children, exception for senior housing)

Sexual orientation (in some jurisdictions and not in others) 2002: New York: The Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act (SONDA)

Gender identity (in some jurisdictions and not in others)

Disability status - Federal: Vocational Rehabilitation and Other Rehabilitation Services of 1973 & Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990

Veteran status - Federal Vietnam Era Veterans Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974

Genetic information - Federal: Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

In my county, satewide courses are few and far between, or over an hour away. Is it the indivduals fault, no. It's the county/states. So we dotn give that person benefits even though it's not their fault. Thats not right. When my dept gets slots, we fill every single one, and have a waiting list. We do as much in house training as we can, but without NYS certs, that doesnt matter much as far as official defendable training in a court of law.

Under Labor Law the department is required to provide the training and certification. The state and/or county is not required to provide any training (unless its for their employees). The law has been in effect for 30 years. And the courts will pay attention to this since it is NYS Law.

Training and education.

1910.156©(1)

The employer shall provide training and education for all fire brigade members commensurate with those duties and functions that fire brigade members are expected to perform. Such training and education shall be provided to fire brigade members before they perform fire brigade emergency activities. Fire brigade leaders and training instructors shall be provided with training and education which is more comprehensive than that provided to the general membership of the fire brigade.

1910.156©(2)

The employer shall assure that training and education is conducted frequently enough to assure that each member of the fire brigade is able to perform the member's assigned duties and functions satisfactorily and in a safe manner so as not to endanger fire brigade members or other employees. All fire brigade members shall be provided with training at least annually. In addition, fire brigade members who are expected to perform interior structural fire fighting shall be provided with an education session or training at least quarterly.

[ffp20 14]

Yes Sir, i cut and pasted parts of your posts. Your arguments just arent holding water except for the one of how to pay for it. That is a VERY valid point.

The points about supposed discrimination are not however.

My point with incentives and retention activities are that they need to dwell on what depts, at the end of the day, really need and dont have enough of. And that my friend are interior firefighters. I under stand we have places for those that cant do it, but, without the interior folks doing the deed-you know, wearing breathing apparatus (inside and outside), doing searches, crawling hot hallways, doing technical rescue, venting roofs, etc, everyone else is of no use. Exterior folks actually support the function of the interior folks. If you're going to offer incentives, those who perfom more demanding and more dangerous tasks deserve to be allowed a greater (or premium) incentive than those who dont. I've heard folks say that why should they bust their a** and get hurt when they'll get the losap point just the same as the guy who is. That what you get when you offer losaps for all, just for showing up. Just sayin.