Bullet-Proof Vests...

[PFDRes47cue 653]

With the terrible start to 2011 interms of shootings and emergency personnel safety, most recent incident being the firefighter who was shot in Long Island, I wanted to hear people opinions/info in regards to using bullet-proof vests.

Obviously law enforcement agencies use bullet proof vests. Are these used by all members the entire time they are on patrol? (Sorry might be a dumb question )

I know there are some EMS agencies (mostly paid) that use bullet-proof vests. I am not sure if this is a mandatory thing or personal preference by members. Do any EMS agencies, paid or volunteer, use bulletproof vests? Are these supplied by by the agency or are they purchased by the user? Are the vest worn on all calls? Are they kept in the rig or kept with the user at all times?

Any FD's use bullet-proof vests? I personally have never heard of this being the case... The injured firefighter from LI was not wearing a vest and the article does not mention if he was shot while wearing his turnout gear. I do not know how I feel about wearing a vest under my turnout gear. But, I also do not have much experience wearing vests and operating in them.

After responding to the recent Thornwood Shooting, my VAC is looking into purchasing bullet-proof vests. I am not 100% sure of all details...

Remember that the most important aspect of any call (MVA, structure fire, Difficulty breathing, slip and fall, shooting, etc) is SCENE SAFETY. You getting injured while rushing to help someone who is already injured, is pointless and often times avoidable. STAY SAFE!

Edited March 2, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[BFD1054 1,552]

PFD, some very good, valid questions and concerns.

I know that when i rode with Peekskill VAC, we had some vests on our rigs (or at least the 1st due). If i remember correctly, they were "hand-me-downs" from Peekskill PD. I am currently a member of Cortlandt VAC and we do NOT have ballistics vests. I also do not know of any other vac's or FDs that carry them.

Ballistics vest's are usually replaced within 5 or so years, much like turn-out gear. Many times, there may be nothing wrong (technically) with the vests. Its just that it is reccommended that they be replaced as they may break down from normal wear andtear and things such as sunlight.

However, there are still many PD agencies that dont require/mandate that their members wear their vests.

Im sure some of the LEO's on here can offer more concrete info.

Edited March 2, 2011 by BFD1054

[MKEMT 0]

We get issued bullet proof vests at no cost to us in FDNY EMS, they are not required to be worn though

[PFDRes47cue 653]

We get issued bullet proof vests at no cost to us in FDNY EMS, they are not required to be worn though

Every EMT and Paramedic is issued a vest whether they want on or not? How often are they replaced?

[grumpyff 1,159]

For the NYPD, members on patrol are supposed to wear the vest at all times. There are some exceptions to this. Most vests are warrantied by the manufacturer for 5 years. With that, when I joined the NYPD in1998 we were fitted for our vest, and told that would be our vest for the next twenty years. It took the death of PO Dillon Stewart in 2005 to get us new vests, rated to a LEVEL IIIA, and the panels overlap. Officer Stewart was shot while in a car chasing a another car, he was hit just under the arm, and the bullet went through the small gap between the front and rear panels. Keep in mind most vests are not stab and puncture rated so they will not stop a knife or other sharp object. Vests are also only rated to stop some handgun rounds, they will not stop a rifle round. Here is a link to a chart that explains the different vest levels, http://www.njlawman....ody%20Armor.htm Vests are hot during the summer, often retaining heat and sweat of the user. Bullet resistant vests also will not be effective if they are soaking wet (heavy rain, enter body of water, etc) Also fitting the vest is important, if it is too big, the user will have trouble sitting down ( the vest will move up and hit you under the chin/throat area, and if too small it will be ineffective. Most are not designed to be folded, or rolled up (there are some on the market that can be), as any crease in the panel will affect its effectiveness. From what I have read in the news media, the incident on Long Island the shooter was intending to kill people. Not sure if the responding crew had a chance to see the firearms before they even got off their apparatus, or if the shooter had it concealed until they approached.

Edited March 2, 2011 by grumpyff

[JJB531 652]

Good post Grumpy. I was going to point out that ballistic vests are not "bulletproof", they are bullet resistant. You have to understand the threat level of protection your vest affords you based on your individual vest.

[64FFMJK 21]

I have used several vests over the years. Every environment from Bike Patrol on the Las Vegas Strip, High risk prisoner transports and EMS in seedy areas and like Grumpyff said the have to be custom fit to the person, even more so then turn out gear. I also went to a demonstration that a PD used to get new vests in Nevada and I personally shot my old vest (6 years old) and a 9mm round went through the front panel, mannequin torso and was lodged just under the rear carrier for the ballistic panel. They also require special maintenance since you can't just throw it in the wash when it needs to be cleaned.

I would not feel comfortable trusting a "hand me down" vest. The other person got rid of it for a reason.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

We sell body armor (ballistic vests) at my work, and some firefighters/EMTs/Paramedics do wear them. Some EMS departments have purchased stab-resistant vests as well.

Police Officers are not always required to wear ballistic vests (most do, but some still don't wear them.) They do get hot, but the newer vests are EXTREMELY light and flexible, not like the old tortoise shells they used to be.

Vests are good for 5 years by warranty. After that, they are not guaranteed and do not meet the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) standards, and should be replaced. Usually old vests get donated to departments that don't have the money, are shipped overseas, or are packed into police car doors to add some ballistic protection (because they USUALLY keep their strength, but its a BIG liability to wear one after that.)

[ny10570 745]

FDNY issues a stab/ballistic resistant vest rated at III/IIA to all members who chose to get fitted. They are yours until you retire unless you grow out of it, get shot/stabbed, or lose it. NIJ has done test on vests of varying ages and condition and have found no significant degradation of protection as long as they're properly maintained.

If its not fitted to you, why bother? Too small or too big and it won't fit properly, restrict movement, and be uncomfortable to the point where people won't wear them.

If you aren't wearing it all the time why bother? I have yet to see a police officer shot in my own little world where the responding officers had a report of weapons involved. The last 3 EMS shootings I'm aware of were this MVA, a chest pain call, and one while the EMT was cleaning the truck. So just wearing it for the shootings and EDP calls isn't going to cut it.

That being said my vest is neatly stored hanging in my locker. One of the few perks of every day EMS life is that the idiots who do most the shooting are happy to seem me show up. If one day the bad old days return where crews are robbed for their drugs and radios or people begin seeing us more as a threat than as life savers I'll reconsider.