Legal Issues Of A Live Burn?

[doug_e 0]

What kind of issues had to be addressed to secure clearance to do a burn like that?

[EJS1810 7]

It depends on how "legal" you want to be. Usually you need DEC approval. All hazards (Asbestos) have to be abated.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You should also follow NFPA 1403 Standard for Live Fire Training. It has a checksheet to help ensure you are incompliance with the standard which will also help you with other legal issues. Make no mistake about it, after several recent deaths during live fire training, there are agencies looking into these things in more detail. Not to mention very high consequences if something goes wrong and you do not follow NFPA 1403 or abatement of environmental concerns. A FD was recently fined for not doing asbestos abatement. Plus not to mention jail time and probation and a lifetime ban from being a member of a FD for Alan Baird III of Lairdsville, NY who was found to be in charge and lit a fire for training that killed a 19 year old volunteer in upstate NY in September of 2001.

There are several other things that need to be ensured prior to doing the fire other then the safety issues addressed in 1403, but also issues regarding fire insurance on the structure, documentation of intent by the person donating the buildign etc to cover your department/district. Any additional question should be directed to OFPC and they will be more then glad to assist you.

[x635 4,066]

 Plus not to mention jail time and probation and a lifetime ban from being a member of a FD for Alan Baird III of Lairdsville, NY who was found to be in charge and lit a fire for training that killed a 19 year old volunteer in upstate NY in September of 2001.  

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Just to note and clarify, the 19 year old FF from Lairdsville died because of the FD's gross negligence in the execution of this drill, and the fact they used him as a LIVE VICTIM!!!!! "Bradleys Law", banning the use of live fire victims in live burn situations, was created because of this.

[Guest WolfEMT]

Who in their right mind would ever use a live person (or anything else) as part of a burn? It's sad that this person died as a result of negligence of an immense caliber, but it's even worse that the state had to create a law about something that common sense should have governed in the first place.

[DMA327 12]

The saddest part about LODD's is that after most of them, a law is created or equipment that guys begged for before hand is bought.

Where is the common sense for these situations.

You have to freaken get one of your guys killed to get something

WHAT A CROCK OF $H*T

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Wolf if common sense had anything to do with it, we could cut fire service LODD's in half every year. Outside of cardiac death which is a personal issue, if things were done in other departments that are listed as recommendations in the prevention of future firefighter deaths that are listed at the end of every LODD report issued by NIOSH and the USFA we wouldn't keep dying over the same issues. Look at Westchester itself with some, many LODD investigation reports state the same thing:

1. Lack of or insufficient Command- We do not follow IMS we only kid ourselves that we have a command system.

2. Communications- Some have improved this, some still don't know, don't want to know how to utilize it to make operations safer. Having a single dispatch channel and getting traffic to firegrounds and making that happen would help.

Outside of local issues:

MVA's 2nd leading cause of death every year however many still do not wear seatbelts in apparatus. I had a person riding with me yesterday and I asked why are you not wearing your seatbelt? " I don't usually wear it when responding." I won't tell you my response but he did put it on. Even with the newer SCBA brackets we have the straps use them!

Unfortunately with live fire training common sense goes even farther out the window. People lose focus on the heat instead of what it is really for...training under some realistic conditions. Its not about getting the room to unrealistic temperatures while they didn't flake the hose right, took to long to establish water supply, ladders won't thrown to all sides of the building, the primary search took too long....but meanwhile "man that was a great burn....so and so got it nice and hot in there." That is my point.

[doug_e 0]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Very informative.

In my community, as in many others in Westchester, the trend is towards demolishing existing structures to build larger homes. In the near future I am making a proposal to our zoning board that would require property owners to provide the FD one week to use the structure for drill purposes as a condition of the permit for demolition. We are loosing a wealth of training opportunities by not taking advantage of this resource.

As far as live burns go, I'm in favor of using them as a training tool. Nothing exactly simulates the real conditions we will encounter except live burning. I've heard all of the arguments against this type of training and I just don't agree. I believe the benefits out weigh the risks we'd encounter in a controlled burn. Assuming we use our heads. However, it's not for every drill. As with any instruction it should be worked into a curriculum that evolves to the point where the live burn is meaningful. It is an educational tool and should be used as you would any other tool.

On the lighter side I remember watching the FDMV do a live burn about 40 years ago that got away from them and went to a third alarm. Which for the FDMV at that time was huge! It was a 4 brick 30X60 with the top three floors gone through the roof. Quite a drill. Too much accelerant used. :oops:

Again, thanks for the info . . .

[doug_e 0]

Also, ALS... I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments. There is certainly no room for the yahoo / cowboy unprofessionalism of making it burn real nice.

This is serious stuff and the senior people in charge need to dilute all the testosterone. Because it's the testosterone that gets people hurt every time.

Think back to most times you've seen people injured and more often than not the root cause was just that, testosterone.

[LCFD994 8]

I have a question, maybe it may be deemed stupid but, are the same requirements needed to be in place whether you live burn at a house like Bedford Hills did, or you using the buildings at your training center?

Also I know in Putnam we have to have an Ambulance crew on standby for any type of live burn, do they require this down in Westchester, because I know in the past they didnt?????

[E64PCFD2044 1]

I've never seen an ambulance at the burn building when I was training in there...maybe because the Medical Center is right there?

[LCFD994 8]

See I am not the only one that ever noticed that. But even being that close to the Medical Center what do we do throw the firefighter up on the hose bed and do the "Johnny Gage" to the hospital

[E64PCFD2044 1]

I've never heard anything go bad in the burn building at WCFTC. It is very controlled environment and the guys that run it are know exactly what they're doing. But back to the original question:

I have a question, maybe it may be deemed stupid but, are the same requirements needed to be in place whether you live burn at a house like Bedford Hills did, or you using the buildings at your training center?

Also I know in Putnam we have to have an Ambulance crew on standby for any type of live burn, do they require this down in Westchester, because I know in the past they didnt?????

Maybe it's just a county thing?

does anyone else know?

[LCFD994 8]

I totally agree with you E64, I have also never heard of anything going wrong,knock on wood, at WCFTC and the guys running it are excellent. But it only takes one time for something to happen and it is fairly simple to have a Ambulance there.

Hey which ever department is training at that time just ask the Ambulance Corps that covers your area if they could stand by for you. Not such a outlandish request, I mean they stand by for alot of other things.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

Hey which ever department is training at that time just ask the Ambulance Corps that covers your area if they could stand by for you. Not such a outlandish request, I mean they stand by for alot of other things.

Not with United Hospital closed!! lol

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Within NFPA 1403 there are subchapters which concern the type of building you are burning in or a "prop" used for live fire training. There are many things in each subchapter that are similiar and some glaring differences. If anyone is interested I suggest keeping an eye out for the Live Fire Training/Conducting Live Fire Evolutions course when given in the county. It deals with NFPA 1403 and you get a draft copy of 1403.

Not to get over into it, but some differences are:

Acquired Structure: Only 1 burn at a time.

"Burn Building:" Which it gives a description of exactly what that is...you can have multiple fires as long as all other recommendations are in place.

As far as EMS goes, there is a ambulance assigned to Grasslands reservation. There is always a CFI or SFI that is an CFR, EMT or Medic. We have the ability for rehab, have EMS equipment and AED's on site. So that is covered.

How simple is it to have an ambulance there? Where do you think the money would come from? DES budget....Ambulance or instructors? I'm not putting a $$ sign on our safety. But we do have guys that are EMS certified and we will get an ambulance here.