Should A VAC Line Officer Have Medical Training?

[Guest mahopacfire2003]

Ok so here is my question. Should a line officier of a VAC such as a Captain or Lt. have medical training such as an emt cert. at the minimum?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Ok so here is my question. Should a line officier of a VAC such as a Captain or Lt. have medical training such as an emt cert. at the minimum?

in a word, yes. unless they are an admin officer with no direct impact on patient care/member operations.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Ok so here is my question. Should a line officier of a VAC such as a Captain or Lt. have medical training such as an emt cert. at the minimum?

Absolutely!!! IMHO, they must! How can someone be expected to run scenes, makes medical decisions, and mentor, guide, and teach other members and EMT's if they are not one? In order to lead EMT, you should be at least an EMT. Officers need to set up training, set up drills, purchase supplies, make medical decisions, help answer questions from the membership...an EMT can do all of these things at a higher level.

Pleasantville VAC requires all Line Officers to be EMT's for a year prior to running or being elected. They also must be members in PVAC or a year minimum. Of course there are other guidelines/requirements as well.

in a word, yes. unless they are an admin officer with no direct impact on patient care/member operations.

Admin Officer...meaning? Board members, commissioner etc? These are not Line Officer's.

[ems-buff 81]

At Mamaroneck EMS, all the line officers at a minimalmust be an EMT for a certain amount of years, as well being a member for a certain amount of years. I will agree with what was said here, and echoing the question how can you be a good leader, if you can help your members expand there knowledge? If you yourself are not legaly, and moraly able to preform some duties that only emt can do.

[Faded Soul 6]

There are some VACs... in which Lts, or ranks below captain/chief are not required to be EMTs. Personally... if you're an officer, you should be an ACTIVE EMT. Would being disciplined by an Lt, who is not an active state certified EMT work at all?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Admin Officer...meaning? Board members, commissioner etc? These are not Line Officer's.

You are correct. Obviously an admin officer would not be giving considered a line officer.

In trying to get everyone on the same page in the ICS world I was trying to see if he actually was talking about all officers and not just the one he mentioned.

[joetnymedic 43]

if you are an officer at any vac you should be an emt at minimal. some officers also do QA/QI how would someone with no experience handle that, then there is the task of getting the pcr's to the state. if you are not trained (other than a driver) and you are not trained in atient care, fact is you should not be on scene. Yes I can see the extra hands for a carry down, etc, but I'm just talking patient care here. I'm also one for officers to be senior members with at least a few years in the field to be able to draw off of experience. just my 2 cents

joe

Edited February 24, 2011 by joetnymedic

[PFDRes47cue 653]

if you are an officer at any vac you should be an emt at minimal. some officers also do QA/QI how would someone with no experience handle that, then there is the task of getting the pcr's to the state. if you are not trained (other than a driver) and you are not trained in atient care, fact is you should not be on scene. Yes I can see the extra hands for a carry down, etc, but I'm just talking patient care here. I'm also one for officers to be senior members with at least a few years in the field to be able to draw off of experience. just my 2 cents

joe

I agree with you. Except, members not trained in patient care should be on scene if their goal is to become trained in patient care. We have a to of Trainees all of whom are expected and encouraged to become EMT within 3 years latest of becoming Trainees. It is so important for future EMT/Medics to get experience prior to starting EMT class.

[paratrooper75 41]

10000% YES! Do you have fire chiefs that don't have FF1? Nope. There are VAC's out there though that have officers that aren't trained EMT's. If its purely an admin position then whatever but a line officer should definitely be trained.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

10000% YES! Do you have fire chiefs that don't have FF1? Nope. There are VAC's out there though that have officers that aren't trained EMT's. If its purely an admin position then whatever but a line officer should definitely be trained.

Plenty of Chiefs that should not have FF1! Or at least anymore!

[Dinosaur 844]

There are talented managers out there who are excellent leaders without being an expert in every specialty that they manage. That said, I don't think vollie EMS draws a lot of those people in so being an EMT to serve as line officer is a good idea.

[FFEMT150 214]

A line officer should absolutely be an EMT. I do know of one vac in putnam that allows a person to be 3rd LT without being an emt but their job is ambulance maint. My view: How can one tell others how to do their job without "knowing" how to do the job themselves?

[MoFire390 118]

I agree with you. Except, members not trained in patient care should be on scene if their goal is to become trained in patient care. We have a to of Trainees all of whom are expected and encouraged to become EMT within 3 years latest of becoming Trainees. It is so important for future EMT/Medics to get experience prior to starting EMT class.

im gonna use myself as an example becuase i agree with what u are sayin. and i think u are bringing up a good point. ive been in EMS for about 8 years now. 5 of which i was an attendent for an ambulance corp. and had NO drive what so ever to take the EMT class. It wasnt until 2 years ago when my wonderful cousin asked me how come i didnt want to take the class. i explained to him my situation and he said grow up and get over it. (thanks pat) now here i am a newly certified EMT and have been taking a ton of classes on how to make myself a better.

as for the question at hand. yes a VAC officer (line officer) should be an EMT or an EMT-I or even a Paramedic.

[LaurBecca7 1]

Ok so here is my question. Should a line officier of a VAC such as a Captain or Lt. have medical training such as an emt cert. at the minimum?

Without a doubt

Absolutely

[NJMedic 96]

Ok so here is my question. Should a line officier of a VAC such as a Captain or Lt. have medical training such as an emt cert. at the minimum?

I suspect you are affilated with an EMS organization that is try to install a line officer with no medical training. If that is the case, run away, runaway and don't look back.

If an organization is numb enough to try to do this I can only image other wackey ideas thy have. I question there professionalism if they want this to fly. It would be like macking a physician in charge who had never gone to medical school, a nurse without nursing school, a fire chief who never graduated Firefighter 1.

[Oswegowind 17]

Depends on the VAC's determination of the duties of said line officer. What exactly is their "job" description?

[RZ502 12]

I personally would like to answer the VAC officer being medically trained with a question. Should an airplane pilot have any formal training, does a MD need to go to medical school... and so on. If you are in a VAC and not medically trained... well... your in the wrong business... If you are a line officer and not medically trained you are a hazard and an insurance no no... nuff said

[FFEMT84 2]

although i'm not involved in ems anymore I feel that a vac line officer should have a certain amount of time as an emt. Too many times people get a title and drop the ball on keeping there skills in check

[ckroll 101]

Perhaps there are two questions here. Should a line officer of an EMS organization have medical training? Yes, they should. Should agencies mandate that their officers be medically trained? I think the answer to that is No.

If faced with the choice between a good EMT who is a poor manager and a good manager who was not an EMT, I think I would choose the better manager. It is an option that should be left available to organizations and judged on a case by case basis..... a.k.a. an election. If individuals feel it is that important, they can vote that way, but agencies should not preclude the option by fiat.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Perhaps there are two questions here. Should a line officer of an EMS organization have medical training? Yes, they should. Should agencies mandate that their officers be medically trained? I think the answer to that is No.

If faced with the choice between a good EMT who is a poor manager and a good manager who was not an EMT, I think I would choose the better manager. It is an option that should be left available to organizations and judged on a case by case basis..... a.k.a. an election. If individuals feel it is that important, they can vote that way, but agencies should not preclude the option by fiat.

A VAC should not be in the situation here there needs to be a choice made between a good manager and a good medical personnel. One would hope that there is not just one option for a medically trained candidate for office. If my VAC had a poor manager who was medically trained, I would not consider him/her for office, I would go with a good manager and a good medical member. I fear the day that there is only one medical personnel option for Officer.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Should a FD Lieutenant, Captain, Chief, etc be an interior firefighter?

Should a Police Chief be a PO?

Edited March 15, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[ny10570 745]

How about, what are the roles of a VAC officer? If it is just to push paper then there is no reason for the training. PCR review can easily be delegated to an EMT. Now if your VAC officer is going to functioning like a counterpart in fire or PD then an EMT card is just the beginning of what they should be required to have. Which agencies require more than just an EMT card? If you're going to be managing the medical branch of an MCI, your EMT card and few years of teching are not going to cut it.

[hfd745 8]

Is this really a question that is being asked. Should a fire chief have fire training. Come on really

Edited March 15, 2011 by hfd745

[JohnnyOV 2]

I mean, we are just volunteers! No one can hold us accountable. We're only trying to do out best.

To quote the great Sean Connery "Your best? Losers always complain about trying your best. Winners go home and "have a nice dinner" with the prom queen"

[helicopper 1,050]

I mean, we are just volunteers! No one can hold us accountable. We're only trying to do out best.

To quote the great Sean Connery "Your best? Losers always complain about trying your best. Winners go home and "have a nice dinner" with the prom queen"

Nice dinner? Hmmm, I've seen that movie a lot and somehow I don't think it was dinner with the prom queen!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nice dinner? Hmmm, I've seen that movie a lot and somehow I don't think it was dinner with the prom queen!!!

Chris...he ment to say dessert

[ckroll 101]

A VAC should not be in the situation here there needs to be a choice made between a good manager and a good medical personnel. One would hope that there is not just one option for a medically trained candidate for office. If my VAC had a poor manager who was medically trained, I would not consider him/her for office, I would go with a good manager and a good medical member. I fear the day that there is only one medical personnel option for Officer.

Oh, you sweet young thing. A good day is when you have at least one option. EMS is remarkably different from the fire service. Every fire has one and frequently multiple officers actively engaged in the response. In EMS, officers are rarely at a scene unless they are crew. For standard calls the crew chief alone is responsible for the response and managing a scene. Even if an officer is on location, he or she does not direct patient care.

I've been a captain and can tell you that getting paperwork filed, keeping records up to date, ordering supplies, figuring out why there is oil all over the floor and settling the cat fights does not require extensive training on the uses of a cravat. As one of our finest past captains said, "The corps doesn't need a captain, it needs a mommy."

As organizations struggle to provide services, it is often for lack of management, not lack of medical expertise. With so many agencies working with dwindling pools from which to choose members and officers, I think agencies are missing opportunities if we pass over the individuals who may bring needed skills and enthusiasm to the organization.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Oh, you sweet young thing. A good day is when you have at least one option. EMS is remarkably different from the fire service. Every fire has one and frequently multiple officers actively engaged in the response. In EMS, officers are rarely at a scene unless they are crew. For standard calls the crew chief alone is responsible for the response and managing a scene. Even if an officer is on location, he or she does not direct patient care.

I've been a captain and can tell you that getting paperwork filed, keeping records up to date, ordering supplies, figuring out why there is oil all over the floor and settling the cat fights does not require extensive training on the uses of a cravat. As one of our finest past captains said, "The corps doesn't need a captain, it needs a mommy."

As organizations struggle to provide services, it is often for lack of management, not lack of medical expertise. With so many agencies working with dwindling pools from which to choose members and officers, I think agencies are missing opportunities if we pass over the individuals who may bring needed skills and enthusiasm to the organization.

Yes, Fire/EMS are completely different in terms of leadership and how the scenes are run. As a EMS Lieutenant, I do see and agree with you that most of the work EMS Line Officers do is not related to medical training. However, in terms of ordering supplies, I have found that better supplies are ordered when the person doing the ordering personally understands the equipment and can relate its use to real life situations. That being said (and a minor point), I also still feel that is is important for EMS Line Officers to be medically trained. Besides the paperwork, and the mystery oil (which is everywhere!), and settling the (way to frequent) cat fights, anther important aspect is leadership/expertise in the back of the ambulance and on scene. Yes, radio communications, and scene management are very important, but it is also beneficial when on top of doing those things, the Line Officers are showing medical expertise to there members. I am a big believer of "If you are going to ask others to do things, make sure you can do them yourself." Asking EMT's to take calls and get my VAC's buses out is an easier task for me when they see me and the other Line Officers doing the same thing.

(Disclaimer: This post is not related to my personal organizations, and ideas stated are my own. "Line Officers" is being used as a generic term, not one referring to the Line Officers of my FD's or VAC.)

[Bnechis 3,961]

Oh, you sweet young thing. A good day is when you have at least one option. EMS is remarkably different from the fire service. Every fire has one and frequently multiple officers actively engaged in the response. In EMS, officers are rarely at a scene unless they are crew. For standard calls the crew chief alone is responsible for the response and managing a scene. Even if an officer is on location, he or she does not direct patient care.

I've been a captain and can tell you that getting paperwork filed, keeping records up to date, ordering supplies, figuring out why there is oil all over the floor and settling the cat fights does not require extensive training on the uses of a cravat. As one of our finest past captains said, "The corps doesn't need a captain, it needs a mommy."

As organizations struggle to provide services, it is often for lack of management, not lack of medical expertise. With so many agencies working with dwindling pools from which to choose members and officers, I think agencies are missing opportunities if we pass over the individuals who may bring needed skills and enthusiasm to the organization.

Excellent post. Prior to your post I would have always said that all line officers should have medical training, after reading your post I realize that in one post you covered all of the EMS issues listed in all of the other EMS related threads: Professionalism, MCI managment, incident liability, protocols, training, etc. Having been involved with a number of different vac's I agree with your "mommy" statement and how all the other issues that you listed as needing to be addressed.

Now this brings me to the real issue: EMS critically needs field supervision!!!! It solves many of the above issues. I have been on many calls where the crew chief has been an EMT for the last week or 2 and has no clue. We want EMS to be treated the same as FD and PD. But EMS crews are not supervised. In larger EMS systems there are field supervisors who insure proper response, proper procedures and during MCI's to COORDINATE the response and administer the incident.

If your emergency response agency (FD, EMS or any other group) needs a "MOMMY", it is not the agency that I want responding to an emergency with myself, my mother or my child. Its time to go to regional EMS (yes it can still have volunteers). It really is nice that VAC's get to play, but this really needs to be all about the "PATIENT".

[JM15 386]

I understand both sides of the argument here. One problem I see as someone pointed out is the lack of senior members being officers in VAC's. I think that younger members are more available and sometimes more enthusiastic thats why they hold officer positions but experience is needed. I could see a VAC having two Captains one being an "operations" officer and the other being an "administrative" officer. Some people can be a great officer but then there are people who are exceptionally good at the planning and paperwork end of the spectrum. I still feel that everyone in a VAC should be an EMT