Pump Operators Pump Diagram

[Portsmouth OH Fire Buff 8]

I came across this photo while checking new photos from my contacts on Flickr, the photo is from Ra11us. It shows what pressure gauges control what, Ive never seen anything like it before and Like it, what are your thoughts?

[38ff 250]

If you, as a pump operator, need to have that diagram showing you your discharges on your apparatus, well, Im not sure I want to be on the end of a line your pumping. Some people may say it is Idiot proofing, but thats crazy. Just my .02 that may not be worth that much.

Edited to add:

Now that I take a 2nd look at the pump panel, I am ASSUMING the farthest most left handle is the tank to pump, with the water level gauge right above it. Now THAT is a good idea.

Edited February 23, 2011 by 38ff

[PFDRes47cue 653]

If you, as a pump operator, need to have that diagram showing you your discharges on your apparatus, well, Im not sure I want to be on the end of a line your pumping. Some people may say it is Idiot proofing, but thats crazy. Just my .02 that may not be worth that much.

I would have to agree. It may seem like a nice thing but IMHO it only has information that you should have memorized and know like the back of your hand. When I am on the nozzle I do not want to have someone on the pumps who needs a cheat sheet to send the water out the right discharge. I want an operator who knows for sure what he is doing and which discharge he needs to use. After all, any mistake at the pump can kill the people on the hose line.

EDIT: One time that I could see this as being an excellent addition to a pump panel is if it is on an Engine that is used solely for Pump Ops such as one owned by the county training center somewhere.

Edited February 23, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[SSCharged E100 7]

Ive seen something like that before on an engine, but i dont recall where it was from. I like the way the pump panel on the engine i drive is, all the levers are straight across with the front lever for front discharge and and the last lever is the rear discharge and so on, some engines ive seen you really have to look at the levers to make sure your charging the right line. It also helps to have everything color coordinated thats if the colors are not close to each other. (ex. Orange and Red)

[efdcapt115 1,511]

In my opinion, when you are charged (nice pun huh) with the responsibility of being MPO, you should be out with that rig for as many dozens of hours as it takes for you to memorize like The Pledge of Allegiance, what discharges and suctions are where, where the levers are, where the overheat lights are, where the tank level lights are, the primer, the tank to pump, EVERYTHING!

While I can't say I strenuously object to the diagram, it just goes along the lines (another pun) with electronics on the panel, auto-throttles, etc. It's just another step in taking the brain work out of pumping.

In a day and age when the talk around here is raising educational requirements for firefighters, at the same time what are we doing? Taking the brain work out of pumping, a job that requires a lot of know how on the fireground.

The biggest problem when we go down this road is this; what is the fail-safe in case our pump aids fail us? What if this decal falls off on the way to a fire? Sure you can laugh at that, but you know what? In my time, I saw lots of things fall off of engines (one time it was the ENTIRE load of hose in the bed). Never say never.

There's a reason why some jobs decline when given the choice of electronic and automated pump aids. Most times it's places like Yonkers, where they get many fires. They know what works, and what has worked successfully. Change for the sake of change is not necessarily the thing to be doing on our pumps.

K.I.S.S.!!!!

Just my opinion......fire away all you Brothers who blast guys like me that say NO TO CHANGE lol....

[Bnechis 3,961]

All of you are correct that the pump operator must know his pump like the back of his hand. Now how many actually do? I hear from instructoors at WCFTC that at every live burn they question the pump operator to determine what pressures and flows they will deliver and they claim that the majority of the time the answer is "I pump till the hose is hard" or a "preset PSI (i.e 125) is what we use", regardless of line size, length, type of nozzle, etc.

I think that many "pump operators" do not know there job to the levels they should and maybe improved pump pannel designs might be useful for those that are not as good.

This is a little more complicated panel (industrial foam unit), I dont know if it helps or hurts.

BTW this is not a decal, its a permanent imprint on the panel

[IFCO3080 26]

All of you are correct that the pump operator must know his pump like the back of his hand. Now how many actually do? I hear from instructoors at WCFTC that at every live burn they question the pump operator to determine what pressures and flows they will deliver and they claim that the majority of the time the answer is "I pump till the hose is hard" or a "preset PSI (i.e 125) is what we use", regardless of line size, length, type of nozzle, etc.

I think that many "pump operators" do not know there job to the levels they should and maybe improved pump pannel designs might be useful for those that are not as good.

This is a little more complicated panel (industrial foam unit), I dont know if it helps or hurts.

BTW this is not a decal, its a permanent imprint on the panel

Was this picture taken at the baltimore fire expa last summer?? if so i believe i saw the same rig and thought what a difficult time someone will have attempting to pump this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Was this picture taken at the baltimore fire expa last summer?? if so i believe i saw the same rig and thought what a difficult time someone will have attempting to pump this.

I did not go to Balt. It is possible. On a trip to Pierce in 2008 I saw a 4,000gpm refinery pumper that also had it and it did kind of help.

Also this is not a new concept. Salsbury was doinging it on pump panels 20= years ago and its standard on european pumps

[JetPhoto 626]

When I am on the nozzle I do not want to have someone on the pumps who needs a cheat sheet to send the water out the right discharge. I want an operator who knows for sure what he is doing and which discharge he needs to use. After all, any mistake at the pump can kill the people on the hose line.

So, I can't use my pump operators pocket guide for dummy's? LoL

[PFDRes47cue 653]

So, I can't use my pump operators pocket guide for dummy's? LoL

You can only use it if I can use my Nozzleman for Dummies book while I wait for you to give me water. ha

Edited February 24, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[FFPCogs 863]

I have to agree that MPOs should know their pumps and which discharge is which long before they are actually pumping a job. That said if it helps some operators well then it helps and that's not a bad thing I guess.

To me a much simpler solution is to color code the handlines. A ring of matching colored paint on the female connection or bale of the nozzle and the discharge lever will make thing almost idiot proof. "Charge the blue line" or "Shut down the red line" or "need more pressure on the yellow line", it really can't be any easier than that. So long as the colors match (and you're not colorblind) it is almost impossible to screw up.

Cogs

Edited February 24, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

To me a much simpler solution is to color code the handlines. A ring of matching colored paint on the female connection or bale of the nozzle and the discharge lever will make thing almost idiot proof. "Charge the blue line" or "Shut down the red line" or "need more pressure on the yellow line", it really can't be any easier than that. So long as the colors match (and you're not colorblind) it is almost impossible to screw up.

Thats a good way to go in a small dept. (particularly those that rely on preconnected lines) but most larger depts find that unworkable.

1st we color code the butts so the hose gets back on the correct rigs.

2nd we tent to strech off the back from a non pre-connected load and break where we need it. This gives greater operational flexability. We may have 600' + feet of hose in a bed, but only strech 200', break it & charge it, then pull 350' pop a nozzle on it and work that. since no one knows where the break will be we cant color them differently.

i know a number of smaller depts that buy color coated hose for the same purpose and that works well in a small dept. We require too much hose to dedicate it in that fashion. We also need to rotate it and color coating it would limit that.

[robert benz 344]

I have to agree that MPOs should know their pumps and which discharge is which long before they are actually pumping a job. That said if it helps some operators well then it helps and that's not a bad thing I guess.

To me a much simpler solution is to color code the handlines. A ring of matching colored paint on the female connection or bale of the nozzle and the discharge lever will make thing almost idiot proof. "Charge the blue line" or "Shut down the red line" or "need more pressure on the yellow line", it really can't be any easier than that. So long as the colors match (and you're not colorblind) it is almost impossible to screw up.

Cogs

unless it is always the same nozzle, length of hose and size of hose attached to the color you are talking about, and you have it posted under each outlet what to pump at, you need more than colors. If you have to say "give me more pressure or back it off", then the pump operator didnt know what pressure to pump, before he charged the line.

head pressure (gravity) is also important but i don't want to turn this into a pump ops class

[FFPCogs 863]

Thats a good way to go in a small dept. (particularly those that rely on preconnected lines) but most larger depts find that unworkable.

Agreed much easier in a smaller dept especially ones that don't get alot of work. As with most things there's no one size fits all solution.

1st we color code the butts so the hose gets back on the correct rigs.

Not looking to debate but rather discuss. It's a given that you know far more about your FDs ops than I do but in the interest of objectivity how about this. When operating handlines it is the color on the nozzle bale not the hose butts that indicate what line you're using.

2nd we tent to strech off the back from a non pre-connected load and break where we need it. This gives greater operational flexability. We may have 600' + feet of hose in a bed, but only strech 200', break it & charge it, then pull 350' pop a nozzle on it and work that. since no one knows where the break will be we cant color them differently.

This is why only the discharge and nozzle colors are used to indicate the line, hose or butt colors are irrellevant. Also there are only so many discharges on a rig and as such there are only so many nozzles to go with those discharges. My thoughts on this were; by keeping the color coded nozzles stored in close proximity to the discharges they would most likely be connected to it is simply a matter of connecting the line to the same colored discharge as the nozzle you grab from that side or rear of the rig. The controlmen then tell the MPO what color discharge the lines are connected to as they are being stretched.

i know a number of smaller depts that buy color coated hose for the same purpose and that works well in a small dept. We require too much hose to dedicate it in that fashion. We also need to rotate it and color coating it would limit that.

My thoughts exactly. Why pay all that money for hose when a few cans of spray paint will yeld the same result. It is only important that the discharge and nozzle match.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

unless it is always the same nozzle, length of hose and size of hose attached to the color you are talking about, and you have it posted under each outlet what to pump at, you need more than colors. If you have to say "give me more pressure or back it off", then the pump operator didnt know what pressure to pump, before he charged the line.

head pressure (gravity) is also important but i don't want to turn this into a pump ops class

I see your point but maybe you are missing mine. Most rigs that I know of keep spare nozzles for use on lines other than the preconnects. We keep a variety of spares of each size nozzle so that we can use either an 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 as needed from the unused discharges. As additional lines are needed it means that the blue 1 3/4 or the blue 2 1/2 nozzle will always go with the blue discharge same for red, yellow, green, black and so on. Color coded or not the MPO still must be made aware of the size, length, height and nozzle type of each line being stretched. The color coding simply helps reduce confusion once multiple lines are in operation. As for the rest of the MPOs responsibilities well as you say that is a whole other topic.

BTW we do not currently color code our lines although I think the idea has merit. Maybe I'll bring it up.

Cogs

Edited February 24, 2011 by FFPCogs

[mfc2257 464]

I hear from instructoors at WCFTC that at every live burn they question the pump operator to determine what pressures and flows they will deliver and they claim that the majority of the time the answer is "I pump till the hose is hard" or a "preset PSI (i.e 125) is what we use", regardless of line size, length, type of nozzle, etc.

It has been 17 years, but I can still see Larry Bremmer holding up his middle finger in the middle of pump ops class and asking... "Does anyone know what this is"...Followed by, "Its 18"... "The amount of friction loss......."

When we left his pump ops class, every single one of us knew every formula for every diameter of hose and ever variable that could effect volume and pressure at the end of the line...

I think Remember585 was in that class with me. We were just young pups.

Edited February 24, 2011 by mfc2257

[robert benz 344]

I see your point but maybe you are missing mine. Most rigs that I know of keep spare nozzles for use on lines other than the preconnects. We keep a variety of spares of each size nozzle so that we can use either an 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 as needed from the unused discharges. As additional lines are needed it means that the blue 1 3/4 or the blue 2 1/2 nozzle will always go with the blue discharge same for red, yellow, green, black and so on. Color coded or not the MPO still must be made aware of the size, length, height and nozzle type of each line being stretched. The color coding simply helps reduce confusion once multiple lines are in operation. As for the rest of the MPOs responsibilities well as you say that is a whole other topic.

BTW we do not currently color code our lines although I think the idea has merit. Maybe I'll bring it up.

Cogs

i am missing something, colored nozzles for colored outlets right? so you have an extra 1 1/2" fog, and smooth bore, also the same with 2 1/2" fog and s/b nozzles for each outlet on your apparatus? Cus all hell breaks loose it seems if i put a blue nozzle with a red outlet.

[MyFyrtrks 15]

It's called a Diagrammatic Pump Panel It was first developed by John Greible from Saulsbury Fire apparatus in the late 80's. Sorry folks NO Pierce did not develop this! I don't recall what fire department but I do believe it was near St Louis MO. It was a spartan rescue pumper with the panel elevated in a compartment at the left rear of the apparatus with a deck gun close at hand.