(Discussion) Montrose Fire 2-23-11

[Guest 29-Indigo]

A couple of questions about the Montrose Fire today.

1. Isn't Watch Hill Road in Mohegan?

2. Should the unit with no Interior members have responded?

3. After a certain amount of time, shouldn't a FAST "give up?"

4. Why not call the VAFD?

5. Isn't Peekskill closer than Mohegan's FAST?

I understand a quick knockdown was made, so an "atta boy" to those involved.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

1. While Watch Hill Road maybe in Mohegan, it is 5 minutes or 2.5 miles away from Montrose FD HQ, the nearest Mohegan Fire House is 8 minutes for 3.6 miles away

2. U-12 is a utility with the cascade system that is requested to all fires in the tri-village. It is not a front line piece of apparatus (I.e. ambulance, rescue, ladder or engine), it is more of a scene support vehicle therefore it is understandable that it would respond with no interior members. Sounds like a great job for one of life members who still wants to help out and can drive and operate the cascade system.

3. One would need to ask the chief on scene, but 14 minutes is too long to wait for a FAS Team

4. One would need to ask the chief on scene, however the VAFD has primary responsibility for their campus, it is possible they too were tied up

5. One would need to ask the chief on scene, however Peekskill is further away and I would be willing to bet the same guarantee for manpower.

I am sorry this was not that unusual/out of line/controversial for you.

Edited February 23, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[FF398 45]

A couple of questions about the Montrose Fire today.

1. Isn't Watch Hill Road in Mohegan?

2. Should the unit with no Interior members have responded?

3. After a certain amount of time, shouldn't a FAST "give up?"

4. Why not call the VAFD?

5. Isn't Peekskill closer than Mohegan's FAST?

I understand a quick knockdown was made, so an "atta boy" to those involved.

To answer some of your questions:

1. Watch hill road is in the Town of Cortlandt and runs through both Montrose and Mohegan fire districts.

2. Opinions differ on this one, so I'll stay out of it.

3. If a FAST team can't assemble a Crew within a certain timeframe, then yes the next closest team should be toned out.

4. Good question! That's up to the incident command however on whether or not they need them.

5. In this case, Mohegan was closer. I don't know which rig mohegan brought but their furnance woods station (Station 3 on Croton Ave.) was closer then peekskill

Hope this helps...

Edited February 23, 2011 by FF398

[wraftery 1,275]

This may have been accomplished on-scene, so I'm not pointing fingers. This is just to reiterate the concept.

One more time:

Fast (RIT, MAT) Must be established prior to anyone entering an ILDH atmosphere (the building). The minimum is 2 in 2 out. Fast must be continuous until the atmosphere is no longer ILDH.

Fast is part of the fire control team. You wouldn't even think of starting a baseball game without an outfield. Too much can go wrong.

[chas 1]

This may have been accomplished on-scene, so I'm not pointing fingers. This is just to reiterate the concept.

One more time:

Fast (RIT, MAT) Must be established prior to anyone entering an ILDH atmosphere (the building). The minimum is 2 in 2 out. Fast must be continuous until the atmosphere is no longer ILDH.

Fast is part of the fire control team. You wouldn't even think of starting a baseball game without an outfield. Too much can go wrong.

eveyone wants to seconds guess everyone become a chief then

[wraftery 1,275]

eveyone wants to seconds guess everyone become a chief then

No second guessing going on here. Read the first line of my quote. I'm giving the Montrose IC the benefit of the doubt and reviewing the rule.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Sounds like a great stop by Montrose FD. Good work!

[Remember585 815]

Watch Hill Road is in Montrose and Mohegan's Fire Districts. If it was in Mohegan, I am 99% sure that's who would have been dispatched.

As for the other questions, wasn't there and wasn't my fire, so I'm not in any place to comment.

Damage was minimal, occupants were OK and no firefighters were hurt - a success from my stand point.

[newsbuff 286]

I'll just say this again. According to google maps, this address was .61 miles in Montrose's district from the border of Mohegan. Mohegan Engine 255 Responded to this incident.

Edited February 23, 2011 by newsbuff

[MoFire390 118]

A couple of questions about the Montrose Fire today.

1. Isn't Watch Hill Road in Mohegan?

2. Should the unit with no Interior members have responded?

3. After a certain amount of time, shouldn't a FAST "give up?"

4. Why not call the VAFD?

5. Isn't Peekskill closer than Mohegan's FAST?

I understand a quick knockdown was made, so an "atta boy" to those involved.

if u listened to the whole thing u would of known that there was an alarm prior to this incident happeneing in which the first due engine was at. U-12 DOES have interior members on it and are always at our disposal if we need them. idk about the fast team not my job to worry about that yet. the VAFD is a great resource however they do have a campus they need to protect. and the way the fast team assigements are broken down is croton has from Amberlands to the VA, the city of peekskill has from Dutch St. to The high school with everything in between. mohegan has from Lower Montrose station Rd to the Furnace dock Rd. and everthing in between. please if u have ANY questions feel free to PM me

[FF398 45]

if u listened to the whole thing u would of known that there was an alarm prior to this incident happeneing in which the first due engine was at. U-12 DOES have interior members on it and are always at our disposal if we need them. idk about the fast team not my job to worry about that yet. the VAFD is a great resource however they do have a campus they need to protect. and the way the fast team assigements are broken down is croton has from Amberlands to the VA, the city of peekskill has from Dutch St. to The high school with everything in between. mohegan has from Lower Montrose station Rd to the Furnace dock Rd. and everthing in between. please if u have ANY questions feel free to PM me

Just to clarify kenny, Peekskill's Fast also has lower washington street to the Watch Hill Road intersection. After that it's Mohegan.

Edited February 23, 2011 by FF398

[16fire5 693]

eveyone wants to seconds guess everyone become a chief then

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

[MoFire390 118]

Just to clarify kenny, Peekskill's Fast also has lower washington street to the Watch Hill Road intersection. After that it's Mohegan.

they go to the intersection of lower washington and lower montrose st rd.

[MoFire390 118]

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

even for exterior operations??? which is where the fire was

[99subi 121]

So this whole fire was contained with exterior ops only?

[Remember585 815]

If Buchanan was only called for their cascade unit, there is no reason those responding on it have to be strucutal firefighters, since that is not what they were called for. Other cascade units in Westchester respond staffed by non-firefighters (Greenburgh CD comes to mind).

If manpower is needed (this isn't specific to this call or to Montrose so don't jump down my throat) then an IC can and usually does call for it. Sounded like enough personnel were there to handle this fire, so stop the hating.

16fire5 - you're right, people have to right to ask about an incident to learn from it, but if people are on here just to "stir the pot," nobody benefits from that. And you are a smart enough guy to realize when that pot is being stirred. There are far fewer incident discussions, photos shared or even discussions of any kind on here anymore because everyone is a critic and a lot of these "critics" have personal agendas.

As far as I'm concerned, "all the chips fell into place" for this fire. I've been to a few fires caused in the same manner as this one, and they've resulted in the destruction of rooms and total homes. The homeowner was fortunate that someone drove by and saw the fire, got her out of the house, the FD had a quick response and the fire was mostly contained to the exterior of the home.

She's lucky and Montrose deserve's a pat on the back. Ignore the haters.

[Guest 29-Indigo]

Thanks fr the info. Good job.

I was asking because I used to work down that way and it seemes confusing - thanks.

[Oswegowind 17]

Thanks fr the info. Good job.

I was asking because I used to work down that way and it seemes confusing - thanks.

Glad you got your answers. Sorry for all the other bull.

[MoFire390 118]

So this whole fire was contained with exterior ops only?

yes the fire was contained to the outside deck of the house...the 2nd LT first went up with a water can until he relized how bad it was...then he asked for a line to be streched to where he was on the deck...there was several interior members there that did go in to check if there was extentsion into the house where there wasnt...that was the only time members entered the house

[FF398 45]

yes the fire was contained to the outside deck of the house...the 2nd LT first went up with a water can until he relized how bad it was...then he asked for a line to be streched to where he was on the deck...there was several interior members there that did go in to check if there was extentsion into the house where there wasnt...that was the only time members entered the house

The main body of fire was in the attic with minimal extension to the exterior of the home. It wasn't a deck fire. Good Stop MFD

[99subi 121]

So it was an interior job or an exterior job?

[Dinosaur 844]

you're right, people have to right to ask about an incident to learn from it, but if people are on here just to "stir the pot," nobody benefits from that. And you are a smart enough guy to realize when that pot is being stirred. There are far fewer incident discussions, photos shared or even discussions of any kind on here anymore because everyone is a critic and a lot of these "critics" have personal agendas.

As far as I'm concerned, "all the chips fell into place" for this fire. I've been to a few fires caused in the same manner as this one, and they've resulted in the destruction of rooms and total homes. The homeowner was fortunate that someone drove by and saw the fire, got her out of the house, the FD had a quick response and the fire was mostly contained to the exterior of the home.

She's lucky and Montrose deserve's a pat on the back. Ignore the haters.

What's wrong with being a critic? What's wrong with saying hey Chief, did you think about X (when he did Y)? The worst thing we can do in the fire service is stifle a little healthy debate. There's an entire federal website dedicated to sharing experiences and providing info on past incidents but we act like it's all a secret. Is the white helmet so sacrosanct that they can't be questioned? Look at the news, they nit-pick, second guess, criticize and question every action by the President and Governor for hours on every network. I hate to break the news but the fire chief is an elected official too and needs to be able to stand-up to a little criticism or questioning. It's part of the job.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

yes the fire was contained to the outside deck of the house...the 2nd LT first went up with a water can until he relized how bad it was...then he asked for a line to be streched to where he was on the deck...there was several interior members there that did go in to check if there was extentsion into the house where there wasnt...that was the only time members entered the house

The main body of fire was in the attic with minimal extension to the exterior of the home. It wasn't a deck fire. Good Stop MFD

Umm.... ehhh..ummmm

So it was an interior job or an exterior job?

I second the question...

Edited February 25, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[FF398 45]

Umm.... ehhh..ummmm

I second the question...

To answer your questions Yes, it was mainly an interior attack. The first line was brought into the house and up to the attic, knocking down the main body of fire. A second line was stretched (not sure if it was used) to the side of the home for any extension on the exterior of the house.

[FFEMT150 214]

I would like to say first to all of my fellow MFD members, good stop! next, you got lucky! It's not that often you get called to a structure fire and are only a mile away just clearing another job. Now to the conversation. There were many good questions and points made here however, 585 is right, we cant all judge because we werent there. Those who WERE THERE can help clarify some of the answers given on this thread. From what I was told today by a FF who was on the first in engine, they were greeted with a significant volume of fire in the attic. There was an interior attack made and exterrior efforts to check for extension and vent. As I said, this is the story I was told by a FF on 1st due. Again great stop guys and may we all have the same luck!

p.s. Did anyone get any pics????

[99subi 121]

To answer your questions Yes, it was mainly an interior attack. The first line was brought into the house and up to the attic, knocking down the main body of fire. A second line was stretched (not sure if it was used) to the side of the home for any extension on the exterior of the house.

yes the fire was contained to the outside deck of the house...the 2nd LT first went up with a water can until he relized how bad it was...then he asked for a line to be streched to where he was on the deck...there was several interior members there that did go in to check if there was extentsion into the house where there wasnt...that was the only time members entered the house

[Atv300 69]

This may have been accomplished on-scene, so I'm not pointing fingers. This is just to reiterate the concept.

One more time:

Fast (RIT, MAT) Must be established prior to anyone entering an ILDH atmosphere (the building). The minimum is 2 in 2 out. Fast must be continuous until the atmosphere is no longer ILDH.

Fast is part of the fire control team. You wouldn't even think of starting a baseball game without an outfield. Too much can go wrong.

I am not going to get involved with the other questions because i don't know the area, details on the incedent, or operating procedures of the departments.

But the fast quest while I agree FAST/RIT teams are a great resource some times I wounder if people get caught up in the allure of the FAST teams role. Staffing in your department and your neighbor's department is something you have to consider on scene and before the incident how you are going to handle the quick decision's that will have to be made for any thing that is thrown at you. Yes you should try to fallow the laws to a tee the best you can but with this law remember the way its written 2in 2out IE you need enough man power on the out side able to go in to get them yes its nice having a team dedicated to this but if you cant having interior ffs standing by to go in will work. My question is you get on scene to an active fire big small what every you want to imagine you have enough manpower to make an aggressive attack k/d the fire and have extra guys on the out side ready to go in setting up ladders fans whatever close to the building (which from my understanding is allowed not only by fast teams but in the 2in/2out). Your FAST team is not getting out do you stop and say hey we can't fight this fire until we find a FAST team or do you set up ops and have a team of your own guys doing the same things that I mentioned above and say there your 2in/2out, fires out and everyones safe? An IC/chief will always have those kinds of decisions to make and this IC might have made this call.

And when they become a chief or IC for that matter they too will have to follow the law and comply with the respiratory standard (2in 2out).

Same thing as above who knows this chief might have still been fallowing 1910.134.

From the US department of labor page OSHA.

"1910.134(g)(4)

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled."

[JohnnyOV 2]

Your FAST team is not getting out do you stop and say hey we can't fight this fire until we find a FAST team or do you set up ops and have a team of your own guys doing the same things that I mentioned above and say there your 2in/2out, fires out and everyones safe? An IC/chief will always have those kinds of decisions to make and this IC might have made this call.

Any Chief or OIC who does not have 2in/2out and sends guys in with a FASTeam still assembling is asking for a world of trouble if the poop hits the fan, except in the case of a known life in the structure... then all bets are off. To place your own guys in jeopardy over a structure is not someone who I want in command of a scene anyways.

[Atv300 69]

That's why I said use your own guys I just think Some people get stuck on the fast team and forget you can have 2out with guys on scene.

[x129K 1,393]

I am not going to get involved with the other questions because i don't know the area, details on the incedent, or operating procedures of the departments.

But the fast quest while I agree FAST/RIT teams are a great resource some times I wounder if people get caught up in the allure of the FAST teams role. Staffing in your department and your neighbor's department is something you have to consider on scene and before the incident how you are going to handle the quick decision's that will have to be made for any thing that is thrown at you. Yes you should try to fallow the laws to a tee the best you can but with this law remember the way its written 2in 2out IE you need enough man power on the out side able to go in to get them yes its nice having a team dedicated to this but if you cant having interior ffs standing by to go in will work. My question is you get on scene to an active fire big small what every you want to imagine you have enough manpower to make an aggressive attack k/d the fire and have extra guys on the out side ready to go in setting up ladders fans whatever close to the building (which from my understanding is allowed not only by fast teams but in the 2in/2out). Your FAST team is not getting out do you stop and say hey we can't fight this fire until we find a FAST team or do you set up ops and have a team of your own guys doing the same things that I mentioned above and say there your 2in/2out, fires out and everyones safe? An IC/chief will always have those kinds of decisions to make and this IC might have made this call.

Same thing as above who knows this chief might have still been fallowing 1910.134.

From the US department of labor page OSHA.

"1910.134(g)(4)

Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:

1910.134(g)(4)(i)

At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;

1910.134(g)(4)(ii)

At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and

1910.134(g)(4)(iii)

All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.

Note 2 to paragraph (g): Nothing in this section is meant to preclude firefighters from performing emergency rescue activities before an entire team has assembled."

That's why I said use your own guys I just think Some people get stuck on the fast team and forget you can have 2out with guys on scene.

What fairytale world do you live in that you can "you can use your own guys" for a FAS Team?! What is your manpower situation around the clock? What is your "INTERIOR" manpower situation around the clock? You must have guys crawling all over the place!

What do you sacrifice to have "your own guys" stand by as FAST? Do you not search? Do you not ventilate aggressively? Surely something doesnt get done...

And yes - other than throwing every ground ladder they can to the windows, (at appropriate angles please!) and doing a 360...they better damn well be standing by...NOT doing the other tasks that may be sacrificed by using "your own guys"....and the lazy firemen that walk up to the scene empty handed better not even think about asking for or taking any other the FAST teams tools...period. Bring your own toys.

Bottom line, unless you are a larger department, ie; FDNY, Yonkers,etc, and can dedicate a full 4 - 5 guys as FAST, WITHOUT diminishing your firefighting capabilities..then you better have one on first alarm, or at the bare minimum, transmittal of a working fire or other incident. NO EXCUSES. As a Lieutenant, YOU should have this mindset, your Captain should have this mindset, your Chiefs and your whole department should have this mindset. You, and you guys deserve nothing less.

Stay safe.