Live Burns Drills

[firemn23 8]

Just an opinion but why do departments have live burn drills and then burn the house to the ground.

[EJS1810 7]

Usually the houses are donated to the fire departments for training. After several weeks of search & rescue, hose line advancement, FAST Team training, etc the building is burned down for the property owner so he can use the property for what he intended to do. It saves the property owner demolition costs and provides valuable trainig for the FD

[mikeinet 37]

I thought westchester county banned live burns?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

How could they? Live burns come down to the approval of the "AHJ" or authority having jurisdiction. As long as you go through the proper permit processes and folllow NFPA 1403 you should be AOK.

[Guest DADAY]

Many westchester depts banned live burns. But as the arugment was brought to the attention of those that be, how are younger new members gonna learn what a fire is. In my "old" dept we used to go to other depts live burn drills, after it was found out we were told that we could supply them water but not participate. BUMMER. So the officers asked this question, "Then how are we allowed to do car fire drills?" are they not live burns? makes no sence.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I feel ya daday. Anyone that knows me, knows that I am not a fan of acquired structure live fire training. In fact I believe it should not be allowed. We've killed to many firefighters in acquired structure live fire training. You can get similiar results from a class A burn building if you keep in context what it is live fire training is for. Too many people get hung up on the heat, which is part of it, but not at the levels that many conducting drills feel the need to get to or exceed. Like I've said many times before, live fire training is important, but when I was a cop and in the Marine Corps, they didn't shoot live rounds back at me to train me for what was to come. But meanwhile we have those out there that do live fire training not with the equivalent of live rounds but bombs. And its stupid and negligent.

[dc2t 80]

you must follow NYS rules covering same. the old days of 5 gals of gas and a few tires are not allowed. The tng officer must be certified for live burns. You are only allowed to burn certain items hay,and class A

combustibles. Also acquired structures are not allowed. [-X

[Guest]

Well, I was holding back my opinion because if you check it out it is illegal to hold live fire burns in uncontroled buildings- or you can ask the upstate vol chief who was charged with negligent homicide

when one of the training members was killed about 2 yrs ago. Just a thought. :-k :roll: ](*,)

[DOC22 1]

Well, I was holding back my opinion because if you check it out it is illegal to hold live fire burns in uncontroled buildings- or you can ask the upstate vol chief who was charged with negligent homicide

when one of the training members was killed about 2 yrs ago.  Just a thought. :-k  :roll: ](*,)

pbvpm, some of your posts are argumentative and sometimes perhaps even a bit nasty BUT I agree wholeheartedly on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!! =D> =D>

just my $0.02

[x635 4,066]

Well, I was holding back my opinion because if you check it out it is illegal to hold live fire burns in uncontroled buildings- or you can ask the upstate vol chief who was charged with negligent homicide

when one of the training members was killed about 2 yrs ago.  Just a thought. :-k  :roll: ](*,)

Are you kidding me? Unbelievable you keep this negativity regarding every single little thing up all the time on every thread you can. I'm getting quite sick of it. :roll: How about something positive and constructive, for once?

You may want to try listening and reading legitmate facts, instead of wherever you are pulling your information out of or puttng your information forth as fact. It is in NO WAY "illegal" to hold this type of drill.

There is NO state law on the books regarding this issue. The law that is on the books ("Bradleys Law") relates to using live victims in live fire conditions. There is an NFPA standard, and there are scattered other guidelines on this issue. Other than that, it's up to the individual department and has nothing to do with legislation.

Here's a great article on this type of training:

http://wildfiremag.com/ar/firefighting_no_substitute/

And just because of the tragedy in Lairdsville, in which they were extremly negligent and careless in the execution of the drill (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face200138.html), totally disreagrding safety guidelines, that SHOULD NOT ruin it for everybody else. Let's take a hypothetical situation...some guy was driving his car like a nut and with no regard to the laws, crashed into a pole, and died....now, should everybody else who drives responsibly not be allowed to drive?

The main issue with Lairdsville is they used a LIVE VICTIM, which is what caused the tragedy!! And the NYS legislation as a result of this was the banning of use of live victims in live burn drill situations. The other problem, among many, was that they had brand new, untrained and unsupervised firefighters particpating and on top of that, without safeguards or planning. Read the NIOSH report!

For you, and all members that want to spew incorrect and negative information, please take a moment to know the FACTS!!

Read the NFPA1403, read the NYS guidelines, and read the report on Lairdsville by NIOSH! Also, there is some great commentary by Harry Carter and Chief Billy Goldfeder regarding this. EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE ISSUE BEFORE PRETENDING TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERYBODY!!!

When done properly and thouroughly, these drills can be quite a success. They are dangerous, and there are some negative aspects to these types of drills, but they can also be enourmously helpful, esepcially for departments with low fire volume. A lesson learned at one of these drills may in fact save a firefighters life in the future. And these drills are not all live fire training, infact that is a smaller part of these drills.

Also to note, there are MULTIPLE, career and volunteer departments in this county that have undertaken and excercise like this.

[x635 4,066]

Additionally, here's a great article regarding live fire training:

http://wildfiremag.com/ar/firefighting_no_substitute/

Take the time to read it!

[ny10570 745]

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> Excellent! Well informed and well written.

[EJS1810 7]

X-635, Excellent Post. I followed the Alan Baird III case very closely when it was in the news. I very quickly learned about NFPA 1403 and how to properly conduct live fire training. For those who would like to read more about the case in addition to the NIOSH Report and get a consise(sp?) version of the case they should go to the Firehouse.com/firefighting forum and type Baird in the search box. Some of what you read is soap box but there are some very knowledgeable people who posted there

[Guest alsfirefighter]

To add on to what was posted...there is no "certification" for someone to conduct live fire training. There is a live fire safety/conducting live fire evolutions curriculum by the state but it doesn't offer a certification it is only an awareness type course.

PBVPM: I don't know where you got your info from...or what you thought you "heard" but as I'm sure you figured out from the other posts already your wrong. In fact the way you stated it says it all "well I was holding back my opinion because if you check it out it is illegal to hold live fire burns in uncontrolled buildings." Are you stating your opinion or fact? As pointed out it is not fact. In fact your wording is wrong because an uncontrolled building isn't a proper term. The form of live fire training being discussed is acquired structure live fire training and in order to perform it correctly and within NFPA guidelines, you make it controlled and there are standards to help make it controlled. Like: Only 1 fire at any given time is allowed. No use of flammable or combustible liquids. The use of fuels that have a unpredictable burning characteristic is prohibited. Class A fuels only necessary to achieve the desired results of the evolution are allowed and again burning characteristics must be predictable and known.

Do I need to go on, or do you need more FACTS?

[breezly 6]

I would just like to state that Sunday's drill was handled very professionally. They had multiple NYS instructors there. There were dedicated instructors for the first engine company to enter the building, one for the second engine company to enter (if necessary), one for the truck company detailed to do entry and a search. There was a safety line also charged with that crew ready to go at all times. All teams had a mandatory walk through of the building prior to doing their evolutions so all egress points were identified. When our team did the "first engine" evolution, our instructor was literally in my ear the entire time giving me tips as we worked. My hat is tipped to BHFD for running a great drill which gave many people a chance to train under these circumstances.

[Pudge3311 5]

Ok, heres a question. While everyone was at this live burn training session, who was covering everyones home turf? It sure looked like a lot of appauratus and manpower was there. Also, which other departments participated, and what appauratus did they bring?

[x635 4,066]

Ok, heres a question.  While everyone was at this live burn training session, who was covering everyones home turf?  It sure looked like a lot of appauratus and manpower was there.  Also, which other departments participated, and what appauratus did they bring?

There were standby crews ready to go at the scene (members who were rotated out, doing another function or not involved) with apparatus that was staged there, not being used and ready to respond to the call. Also note that the FD's in the Bedford area have a long-standing agreement and training they can ride each others apparatus anytime, so each rig had a full crew from the scene from a trained pool of firefighters. Also, this drill was centrally located in Bedford Hills, and the area.

In addition, each department there had members that did not attend the drill and were available. In fact, several calls were promptly covered during this drill from the scene and firehouse(s). The drill could and would be put on hiatus if a major incident was to occur.

As far as apparatus covering BHFD: Battalion 2032 or 2033, Rescue Engine 198, 57 Truck, Tanker 5-A and Rescue 10 were all available from the scene. Mini-Attack 9 was ready to go from headquarters. .

In relation to the "Large amount" of apparatus being there, not really. Each department, with the exception of the Hills, brought only one piece of apparatus.. (Except PR, which brought 113 and T3 Saturday). Note the tankers were involved in a shuttle, so they were all ready to go if need be.

The people involved in this drill covered every base possible.

[Pudge3311 5]

x635,

I figured that that was thought out well in advance, was just curious. Didnt know they had a longstanding agreement of being able to ride each others rigs.

[firemn23 8]

Just to clarify I was not trying to say anything about the drill in the Hills by starting this topic, sorry if that is what it turned into.

Being from a southern westchester town a full blown live fire drill would never be thought of, just wanted to know a little about it. So from anyone from that drill can you describe the procedures you have to go through to conduct a drill like that

[x635 4,066]

Being from a southern westchester town a full blown live fire drill would never be thought of, just wanted to know a little about it.  So from anyone from that drill can you describe the procedures you have to go through to conduct a drill like that

It was done in AFD. I remember twice in recent memory. Jordan Lane, and the house on Grandview. Both had controlled Class A Fires inside the structure.

The only difference is, it wasn't done as extensively or thoroughly from both a planning and evolution standpoint, no mutual aid was invited, and the structures weren't burned down in the end.

[firemn23 8]

no those were live burns in 55 gallon drums.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Just to point something out.....anyone there is at their will. OFPC prohibits acquired structure live burn, so no one was there as a NYS instructor, nor any other type of instructor. They may have been lending out some tips...but on a legalality side if something happened, they could be very liable.