Ghost Lettering On Fire Vehicles

[JM15 386]

Any reason for the "undercover" look?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Any reason for the "undercover" look?

Cause it looks cool that they can only see us at night. And looking cool is the most important feature in a response vehicle.

[JM15 386]

Cause it looks cool that they can only see us at night. And looking cool is the most important feature in a response vehicle.

I have seen several "chiefs" vehicles being delivered recently that are setup very similar. I don't understand the attraction to them. I feel that they are more dangerous because you don't have the added visibility of the graphics and chevrons. JMHO

Anyone have a picture of the back of this new vehicle?

[JohnnyOV 2]

Any possible way that it is cheaper to outfit it in only white?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Any possible way that it is cheaper to outfit it in only white?

Nope, materials cost the same and same amount of labor to install.

[BHFD702 3]

Interesting concept using the "ghost" lettering. I like it.

I like it as well, Definetly a fan of the ghost lettering. What kind of lightbar is in the top part of the grill?

[INIT915 1,119]

Why would FD/EMS vehicles seek to be "quasi-unmarked"?

[sfrd18 360]

Nice! Interesting how a few dept.'s are using the ghost lettering on their Chief's cars.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why would FD/EMS vehicles seek to be "quasi-unmarked"?

Makes it harder to id after you cut off other cars causing MVA's.

[x635 4,066]

This style was orginally designed for PD use. Many PD's use these in their traffic enforcement cars, to blend in with other traffic, and the ghost lettering is good at night when hunting DWI drivers. Mostly all the ghost lettering PD car's don't have lightbars, either. AND, they 99% of the time don't respond Code 3.

I don't see the rationale on putting them on Chief's cars. Would this be appropropriate to do on fire apparatus as well? No.

Why wouldn't you want your vehicle identified easily? Why would you want to LOWER your daytime visibilty?

I really don't understand this concept.

[PEMO3 523]

With so many members of the public complaining about vehicles being "out of district" the ghost lettering concept could have its benefits. Not easily spotted in a parking lot, on the highway, etc when the light are not activated.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Makes it harder to id after you cut off other cars causing MVA's.

Way to bring down the topic, you must be a ball at parties!

[M' Ave 1,466]

With so many members of the public complaining about vehicles being "out of district" the ghost lettering concept could have its benefits. Not easily spotted in a parking lot, on the highway, etc when the light are not activated.

So, to paraphrase:

We should make it easier for people with emergency response vehicles to abuse the privilege and take it to work, say way out of district.

To be honest, I don't REALLY have a problem with the ghost lettering. Chief's in volunteer situations are given a vehicle, sometimes. It's a good resource for them, but not everyone wants to drive around a billboard, I understand that.

[PEMO3 523]

Putting all joking aside and moving this subject toward safety and vehicle design maybe someone with some knowledge could answer this. When a response vehicle other than a police car is done with "ghost lettering" how does that effect the standards and insurance requirements for the vehicle if any actual exist. Again, I am not well versed on this subject and not sure if just having reflective lettering covers you and having your chevrons reflective and not contrasting with the vehicle color matters but I would be interested in knowing. As always the goal is toward safety while responding to and operating at a scene and sometimes what looks good might not actually be best for our own protection. Has anyone seen any studies on ghost lettering that they can post. I would be interested in reading them.

By the way M'Ave, no you paraphrased wrong even though it could have been taken that way. No where did I say it was ok to abuse the privilege.

[Alpinerunner 61]

The lettering on emergency vehicles is not what makes them visible, it's their emergency lights. CT State troopers have no lettering on their vehicles. Does that make them more dangerous / less visible when responding lights and sirens? I don't think so. Whether you like it or not, I don't think you can argue that it is a safety issue.

That being said, I don't see the point. It makes it less likely to be spotted by civilians who need to "flag down" an emergency vehicle, (as rare as they may be)

Edited February 21, 2011 by Alpinerunner

[Goose 188]

The lettering on emergency vehicles is not what makes them visible, it's their emergency lights. CT State troopers have no lettering on their vehicles. Does that make them more dangerous / less visible when responding lights and sirens? I don't think so. Whether you like it or not, I don't think you can argue that it is a safety issue.

Thats definitely not the case at all. Lights are part of a warning package, if you will. That package includes color schemes and patterns, emergency lighting and audible warning devices.

Think about it, why are more and more agencies adopting European style color schemes and pattern and why are chevrons beginning to be mandated for emergency vehicles? Because studies have shown that certain colors, color combinations and patterns increase visibility to the human eye and help direct motorists away from the vehicle.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Goose

[Alpinerunner 61]

Thats definitely not the case at all. Lights are part of a warning package, if you will. That package includes color schemes and patterns, emergency lighting and audible warning devices.

Think about it, why are more and more agencies adopting European style color schemes and pattern and why are chevrons beginning to be mandated for emergency vehicles? Because studies have shown that certain colors, color combinations and patterns increase visibility to the human eye and help direct motorists away from the vehicle.

Yes, colors are important. Red stands out, chevrons stand out. A maltese on a door and a town name is not apart of that visibility package.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

I have seen several "chiefs" vehicles being delivered recently that are setup very similar. I don't understand the attraction to them. I feel that they are more dangerous because you don't have the added visibility of the graphics and chevrons. JMHO

Anyone have a picture of the back of this new vehicle?

Makes it easier to sneak up on those pesky fires.

Serioulsy I don't get it. Perhaps a well known chief from one of the more "popular" departments can chime in being that he is a member here. He runs around AOR in an unmarked black Suburban or Expedition. Perhaps he can answer these questions.

[ny10570 745]

Other than chevrons everything we've done to emergency vehicles in the past 10 years has gone against the research as to how to make our scenes safer. Ghost lettering does nothing to inhibit safety. Both studies I've read regarding chevrons addressed night conditions only, so go nuts with the ghost decals.

[x635 4,066]

The difference is, these cars are not just for the Chief to drive around. They are (supposed to be) Incident Command vehicles, capable of transporting an IC and the various equipment he or she needs to do the job.

If the striping is for low conspicuity, then let the Chief drive his personal vehicle. The only two excuses I can think of is that it looks cool, or to lesssen visibilty of the car.

The white is visible during the day, but is barely visible. There is no contrasting colors which does lessen visibility.

Ultimately, it is the department's leadership that it's up to. I just don't like the concept for FD vehicles.

[firedude 985]

I like them, and I don't see why they haven't become more popular. I think they work better with police, but FD could get good use out of them also. These work perfect on Highways. Check these out... (My Pics)

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Interesting how the NFPA requires certain things for 'warning', such as Chevrons, and certain number of lightheads per area, etc... for fire apparatus, yet some officials/agencies look to basically go directly against these recommendations for vehicles NOT 'required' to be outfitted such a way. Kind of seems like people are taking steps backwards in the safety aspect...

And yes, as some have posted, you can have Chevrons in Ghost Lettering, but come on, do you think that would fly on a first due fire apparatus? So then why do it on something else that will see action on incident scenes??

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=1901&cookie_test=1

[firedude 985]

Check out this article about WCDPS's 'Ghost Car'

Police Use 'Ghost Car' to Scare Distracted Drivers

(April 6) -- After trying everything from speed traps to sobriety checkpoints to bust bad drivers, police in New York are turning to the supernatural.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Pretty sure NFPA states all you need is retro reflective striping and 360 degree warning light power, along with red and yellow chevrons in the back. It says nothing about the color of the truck, or the color of the striping. You want white on white reflective, have a ball. Insurance should not go up, and safety should not go down.... according to the NFPA that is

[hfd745 8]

Not sure if anyone here has gotten to see these vehicles at night. The white reflective is amazingly bright. You are able to see the reflective from a very far distance. As far as lettering on a vehicle for daytime visability I don't feel you can see the vehicle any better because it has colered stripping on it. Both the 2161 and 2163 cars both have white cheveron striping on the rear of the vehicle. I personally like the way the ghost lettering looks. These vehicles still have plates on them that clearly state there county number and department.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Interesting how the NFPA requires certain things for 'warning', such as Chevrons, and certain number of lightheads per area, etc... for fire apparatus, yet some officials/agencies look to basically go directly against these recommendations for vehicles NOT 'required' to be outfitted such a way. Kind of seems like people are taking steps backwards in the safety aspect...

And yes, as some have posted, you can have Chevrons in Ghost Lettering, but come on, do you think that would fly on a first due fire apparatus? So then why do it on something else that will see action on incident scenes??

http://www.nfpa.org/...1&cookie_test=1

My whole take on rear end collisions with fire apparatus / emergency response vehicles is that who is most likely to hit the rear of a truck? Drunk drivers, people asleep at the wheel, or a distracted driver. What good is a chevron going to do to someone who isn't even looking at it in the first place? Trust me, I took human factors and other courses like this in college, andI truly believe the eye is trained to follow the chevrons away from the center of the truck. But I also feel that most of the time, these chevrons will not accomplish anything since a majority of people who hit the trucks, wont even be looking at them.

I'm very curious to see if a report will come out in a few years to see if the number of rear ended incident % has declined, stayed the same or increased, relative to trucks that have and do not have the chevrons.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Way to bring down the topic, you must be a ball at parties!

So sorry that you feel that my safety question is such a downer. Dont worry, I will not invite you to one.

[v85 212]

I think the same questions can be asked about slicktop vehicles. Quoting Bull McCaffrey are we trying to sneak up on fires? Slicktop vehicles were designed for law enforcement to be less visible to traffic violators.

With how low profile LED bars are today, I can't even see how much a slicktop vehicle adds to fuel economy.

Edited February 21, 2011 by v85

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Pretty sure NFPA states all you need is retro reflective striping and 360 degree warning light power, along with red and yellow chevrons in the back. It says nothing about the color of the truck, or the color of the striping. You want white on white reflective, have a ball. Insurance should not go up, and safety should not go down.... according to the NFPA that is

15.9.3.1* A retroreflective stripe(s) shall be affixed to at least 50 percent of the cab and body length on each side, excluding the pump panel areas, and at least 25 percent of the width of the front of the apparatus.

15.9.3.2 At least 50 percent of the rear-facing vertical surfaces, visible from the rear of the apparatus, excluding any pump panel areas not covered by a door, shall be equipped with retroreflective striping in a chevron pattern slopping downward and away from the centerline of the vehicle at an angle of 45 degrees.

15.9.3.2.1 Each stripe in the chevron shall be a single color alternating between red and either yellow, fluorescent yellow, or fluorescent yellow-green.

15.9.3.3 All retroreflective materials required by 15.9.3.1 and 15.9.3.2 shall conform to the requirements of ASTM D 4956, Standard Specification for Retroreflective Sheeting for Traffic Control, Section 6.1.1 for Type I Sheeting.

15.9.3.3.1 All retroreflective materials used to satisfy the requirements of 15.9.3.1 that are colors not listed in ASTM D 4956, Section 6.1.1, shall have a minimum coefficient of retroreflection of 10 with observation angle of 0.2 decrees and entrance angle of -4 degrees.

15.9.3.3.2 Fluorescent yellow and fluorescent yellow-green retroreflective materials used to meet the requirements of 15.9.3.2 shall conform to the minumum requirements specified for yellow Type I Sheeting in ASTM D 4956, Section 6.1.1.

15.9.3.3.3 Any printed or processes retroreflective film construction used to meet the requirements of 15.9.3.1 and 15.9.3.2 shall conform to the standards required of an integral colored film as specified in ASTM D 4956, Section 6.1.1.

ASTM D 4956

While I am sure that the ghost lettering used does conform to many, if not all of the legal requirements, or 'recommendations', as people have said before, are we trying to sneak up on incidents? Why hide who we are? I thought most departments out there usually want to announce who they are, and show off how much they spend to outfit their vehicles? Why now go to this more 'subtle' approach?

[SteveOFD 176]

I read an article a while back stating the refectivity of the various colors of reflective striping. I did not save the link , and have not been able to find it since.

The article basically stated that white reflective striping reflects the most (if I recall correctly 95-100% reflectivity). The other colors from red, orange, yellow, blue, brown, etc. were less and less reflective. If you look at any of the BeeLine buses at night you can see this difference with them having white, yellow, and blue, with white appearing to be the brightest, and blue the least. The reasoning for the red/yellow combination on the rear of fire apparatus is that a combination on the rear with white was too bright and actually blinded drivers approaching the scene. I don't know how much of a "blinding" problem this ghost scheme would be, but it might be a cause for concern.

Personnaly, I don't have a problem with it, but I would prefer more contrasting schemes.