NYPD rescues two West Point cadets

[xfirefighter484x 234]

To clarify Nate's post, it is not that one NYSP helicopter is solely rescue and the other medevac. The ships have to be rigged for the mission that it is intended. Our newest flight medics were actually doing hoist training just last week.

I'm not sure what you mean by "rigged for the mission intended" but the NYSP aircraft do have hoist capabilities. It is interesting that they were just doing hoist training last week but didn't complete this mission. There must have been some reason for that which we're not aware of.

Dan, thank you, that was what I had meant, as I can see you understood.

The NYSP birds are set up depending on what their intended function of the mission is. If to be a medivac, yes, they still have hoists attached, but the swivel mount to attach the backboards inside of the compartment would interfere with rescue operations, therefore, they are either in 'Rescue' mode, or 'Medivac Transport Mode', if transporting injured victims. If it be just a case of removal of uninjured victims, then I can see the NYSP Aviation Unit being fully capable of such a feat.

I know in the past, helicopters such as this get requested through Regional Medivac, however, if it is just for recon, or removal, does the request still go through Regional, or can a direct request be made to NYSP?

[ny10570 745]

That same evening, there was a fifth alarm in Brooklyn. The 'Air Recon Chief' was unable to respond because the NYPD stated they were not flying due to the weather. I'm curious why they were able to fly up to Orange County if they couldn't fly in Brooklyn (where they are based)?

NYPD sees air recon as a lower priority mission. I don't remember the details, but every FDNY medic class gets a lecture on aviation's capabilities and requirements for a medivac or rescue. Essentially if they can get in the air, they'll do so for a rescue or MOS medevac. Other missions have stricter safety guidelines.

Edited February 22, 2011 by ny10570

[Guest Choking Victim]

That same evening, there was a fifth alarm in Brooklyn. The 'Air Recon Chief' was unable to respond because the NYPD stated they were not flying due to the weather. I'm curious why they were able to fly up to Orange County if they couldn't fly in Brooklyn (where they are based)?

That problem is easily solved by FD purchasing their own chopper and having it's personnel trained and equipped to operate it.

[bad box 371]

That problem is easily solved by FD purchasing their own chopper and having it's personnel trained and equipped to operate it.

I agree with you 100%. In fact, F.D.N.Y. attempted several times over the years to make such a purchase and trained firefighters were already in place, but the N.Y.P.D. brass didn't want the F.D. to have that capability and assured them that they would provide whatever air support F.D.N.Y. needed.

[PEMO3 523]

That same evening, there was a fifth alarm in Brooklyn. The 'Air Recon Chief' was unable to respond because the NYPD stated they were not flying due to the weather. I'm curious why they were able to fly up to Orange County if they couldn't fly in Brooklyn (where they are based)?

To be honest having a pilot say not going up due to weather would be good enough for me if I were the Air Recon Chief, no need being the hero here. I can see the flames just as well from the street and safer too!!

[16fire5 693]

That same evening, there was a fifth alarm in Brooklyn. The 'Air Recon Chief' was unable to respond because the NYPD stated they were not flying due to the weather. I'm curious why they were able to fly up to Orange County if they couldn't fly in Brooklyn (where they are based)?

The air recon chief responds in a much lighter chopper (Agusta?) so based on what our resident helicopter pilot has been teaching us in this article it seems that the air recon chief's ride was grounded. I am fairly sure the air sea rescue aircraft is not set up to do the things the air recon chief provides. It is used to hoist the high rise roof teams in the event it is required.

[16fire5 693]

At Stewart Air Base, there is a small Aviation Unit that is organic to West Point, where they have a handful of birds based. Last I heard, they were one of the very few Army units left flying UH-1's.

They made the switch to UH-72A Lakotas.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/01/15/15800-hail-and-farewell-to-helicopters/

They should look real familiar since they are the military version of a very popular medivac helicopter.

[bad box 371]

The air recon chief responds in a much lighter chopper (Agusta?) so based on what our resident helicopter pilot has been teaching us in this article it seems that the air recon chief's ride was grounded. I am fairly sure the air sea rescue aircraft is not set up to do the things the air recon chief provides. It is used to hoist the high rise roof teams in the event it is required.

Thanks ...

[helicopper 1,050]

That same evening, there was a fifth alarm in Brooklyn. The 'Air Recon Chief' was unable to respond because the NYPD stated they were not flying due to the weather. I'm curious why they were able to fly up to Orange County if they couldn't fly in Brooklyn (where they are based)?

The winds at Floyd Bennett and JFK were topping out around 55-60 knots that night. The flight to Storm King must have been really interesting even in the SAR equipped Bell 412. I'm reasonably sure that all non life-safety flights were grounded that night, I know for sure that ours were.

NYPD sees air recon as a lower priority mission. I don't remember the details, but every FDNY medic class gets a lecture on aviation's capabilities and requirements for a medivac or rescue. Essentially if they can get in the air, they'll do so for a rescue or MOS medevac. Other missions have stricter safety guidelines.

Is there really an argument that recon is a lower priority than rescuing people off a cliff?

That problem is easily solved by FD purchasing their own chopper and having it's personnel trained and equipped to operate it.

I agree with you 100%. In fact, F.D.N.Y. attempted several times over the years to make such a purchase and trained firefighters were already in place, but the N.Y.P.D. brass didn't want the F.D. to have that capability and assured them that they would provide whatever air support F.D.N.Y. needed.

Point 1 - I've argued this here before; there is no FD in the northeast US that can sustain an aviation unit by itself especially in this economy (there's a thread all about this on Bravo somewhere already). There are a lot of PD's that can't sustain aviation units either, that's not a dig on the fire service.

Point 2 - You guys are fighting to restore the fifth firefighter to your engines, a position that is sorely needed, why would you want to divert money to a helicopter and sfaffing?

Point 3 - There's no such thing as one helicopter if you want to maintain 24/7 coverage so you have to have more than one aircraft. This doesn't account for staffing which again is a big deal. Recreational pilots are not police/fire/EMS pilots so having a few pilots on staff doesn't mean you have flight crews.

What is done on multi-alarm fires during inclement weather (fog, ice, heavy snow)? You do without the air recon chief, right? Wind is no different, it's also a weather phenomenon that can make flight unsafe.

Likewise, the weather conditions along the coast in Brooklyn were actually worse than they were inland so the flight upstate was good while the flight locally was ill-advised (no pun intended). This is sometimes the case even within the city itself; there have been cases where we're flying in lower Westchester and the Bronx is clear but they're grounded in Brooklyn due to fog/reduced visibility.

[bad box 371]

The winds at Floyd Bennett and JFK were topping out around 55-60 knots that night. The flight to Storm King must have been really interesting even in the SAR equipped Bell 412. I'm reasonably sure that all non life-safety flights were grounded that night, I know for sure that ours were.

Is there really an argument that recon is a lower priority than rescuing people off a cliff?

Point 1 - I've argued this here before; there is no FD in the northeast US that can sustain an aviation unit by itself especially in this economy (there's a thread all about this on Bravo somewhere already). There are a lot of PD's that can't sustain aviation units either, that's not a dig on the fire service.

Point 2 - You guys are fighting to restore the fifth firefighter to your engines, a position that is sorely needed, why would you want to divert money to a helicopter and sfaffing?

Point 3 - There's no such thing as one helicopter if you want to maintain 24/7 coverage so you have to have more than one aircraft. This doesn't account for staffing which again is a big deal. Recreational pilots are not police/fire/EMS pilots so having a few pilots on staff doesn't mean you have flight crews.

What is done on multi-alarm fires during inclement weather (fog, ice, heavy snow)? You do without the air recon chief, right? Wind is no different, it's also a weather phenomenon that can make flight unsafe.

Likewise, the weather conditions along the coast in Brooklyn were actually worse than they were inland so the flight upstate was good while the flight locally was ill-advised (no pun intended). This is sometimes the case even within the city itself; there have been cases where we're flying in lower Westchester and the Bronx is clear but they're grounded in Brooklyn due to fog/reduced visibility.

Hmmm ... I have one law enforcement guy telling me that F.D.N.Y. should buy their own helicopter and another law enforcement guy telling me F.D.N.Y. can't afford it. BTW, my original post simply posed a question as to why the N.Y.P.D. wouldn't respond to an air recon assignment at a fire incident due to high winds but did respond upstate N.Y. for a hiker pick up.

[helicopper 1,050]

Hmmm ... I have one law enforcement guy telling me that F.D.N.Y. should buy their own helicopter and another law enforcement guy telling me F.D.N.Y. can't afford it. BTW, my original post simply posed a question as to why the N.Y.P.D. wouldn't respond to an air recon assignment at a fire incident due to high winds but did respond upstate N.Y. for a hiker pick up.

I haven't properly articulated my position if that's what you think about my comments. I'm not saying FDNY can't afford it, although finances are a big concern. Air operations are a very complicated venture and to propose such a unit for maybe 30 responses a year is a losing proposition. Well established aviation units are being shut down all over the country or are fighting for their existence. The battle for the 5th FF on engines shows just how bad things are in the city right now so I'm surprised that the helicopter idea came up again.

I think there are better ways for the FDNY to insure that they have the resource when they need it besides buying a helicopter and hanging the "aviation shingle" outside the door.

And, in fairness to all those involved (and I wasn't), don't minimize a complicated mountain rescue by calling it a "hiker pick-up". That's not fair to the victims or their rescuers.

Back to your original question, it was a matter of risk vs. benefit and a recon flight wasn't worth the risk given the weather conditions. It could have been a perp search in the 75 Pct, it would have been turned down also. This is not a PD-FD thing.

[newsbuff 286]

Anyways. Just wanted to clear one thing up in regards to the possibility of a ground rescue.

From someone on scene.

These two cadets buddy rappelled down the side of the mountain, therefore making the distance to their top anchor point infinite. They got to a point where with the amount of rope they were carrying, one could not rappel and get a good anchor, thus getting stuck.

[JetPhoto 626]

Hmmm ... I have one law enforcement guy telling me that F.D.N.Y. should buy their own helicopter and another law enforcement guy telling me F.D.N.Y. can't afford it. BTW, my original post simply posed a question as to why the N.Y.P.D. wouldn't respond to an air recon assignment at a fire incident due to high winds but did respond upstate N.Y. for a hiker pick up.

I can only assume that because it was a "typical" (with some extra wind) fire where fire crews were doing all they could from the ground. Now in the case of the stranded hikers, after hours and hours of ground crews attempting to locate and perform the rescue they finally got choppers to come in and actually save 2 lives.

These request from "upstate" NY don't happen very often at all. If they had to rescue someone in NYC I'm sure that would have been a much higher priority as it would be if a major crime took place and the PD Helo was needed to recon a crime scene instead of a structure fire.

All this is my complete speculation but I do congratulate the crew from NYPD on the awesome rescue!

[bad box 371]

I haven't properly articulated my position if that's what you think about my comments. I'm not saying FDNY can't afford it, although finances are a big concern. Air operations are a very complicated venture and to propose such a unit for maybe 30 responses a year is a losing proposition. Well established aviation units are being shut down all over the country or are fighting for their existence. The battle for the 5th FF on engines shows just how bad things are in the city right now so I'm surprised that the helicopter idea came up again.

I think there are better ways for the FDNY to insure that they have the resource when they need it besides buying a helicopter and hanging the "aviation shingle" outside the door.

And, in fairness to all those involved (and I wasn't), don't minimize a complicated mountain rescue by calling it a "hiker pick-up". That's not fair to the victims or their rescuers.

Back to your original question, it was a matter of risk vs. benefit and a recon flight wasn't worth the risk given the weather conditions. It could have been a perp search in the 75 Pct, it would have been turned down also. This is not a PD-FD thing.

FYI ... I didn't bring up the concept of F.D.N.Y. purchasing a chopper, one of the law enforcement members did. My initial post raised the issue of N.Y.P.D. responding to one incident but not the other because I wanted to understand why such a decision was made. Along with a bunch of stuff that I didn't address, I think I also got the answer ... They will fly in dangerous wind conditions for certain priority calls. From some of the responses that I received, it appears that I stepped on a few people's nuts ... That wasn't my intent, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Edited February 23, 2011 by bad box

[mh1425 2]

For all your information the west point fire department recieved the call at 630pm did not locate the victims till about 930pm. Cadets had no harnesses and 50ft rope and were not properly trained on repelling. They were freshman. They were 1800ft above rt 218. They were trapped on a 6ft ledge. 5 rope rescue teams were dispatched through the mutual aide program. WestPpoint fire department did a department recall. WPFD has of the highest trained rope rescue technician in the state and he is nationally certified. Ground crew walked through waist deep snow with rope rescue equipment for about 5miles. The cadets were dressed in improper seasonal clothing. The incident commander followed policies and NYPD avaition was the last resource that would respond. SP were on scene with a helicopter with a spot light. USCG had no helicopters available cap may to boston that would do a rock face rescue. The reason the WPFD did not repel down is because they could not find a substantial anchor point to carry out the rescue safely.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

After they were checked out and medical authority ensured these cadets were okay; ya think they caught an ear-full in the barracks?

(The USMC lent out a DI to make the point)

[helicopper 1,050]

For all your information the west point fire department recieved the call at 630pm did not locate the victims till about 930pm. Cadets had no harnesses and 50ft rope and were not properly trained on repelling. They were freshman. They were 1800ft above rt 218. They were trapped on a 6ft ledge. 5 rope rescue teams were dispatched through the mutual aide program. WestPpoint fire department did a department recall. WPFD has of the highest trained rope rescue technician in the state and he is nationally certified. Ground crew walked through waist deep snow with rope rescue equipment for about 5miles. The cadets were dressed in improper seasonal clothing. The incident commander followed policies and NYPD avaition was the last resource that would respond. SP were on scene with a helicopter with a spot light. USCG had no helicopters available cap may to boston that would do a rock face rescue. The reason the WPFD did not repel down is because they could not find a substantial anchor point to carry out the rescue safely.

Thanks for the inside story!

[INIT915 1,119]

I heard that SP declined to fly due to weather. I was not aware they were even providing illumination.

SP Aviation was on the scene.

[38ff 250]

These 2 guys will hear about this until they graduate.

[16fire5 693]

Recreational pilots are not police/fire/EMS pilots so having a few pilots on staff doesn't mean you have flight crews.

Just off the top of my head we have a former NYPD pilot and multiple helicopter pilots from the 106th ANG rescue wing.