Fire officials support bill to indemnify volunteers

[antiquefirelt 994]

Well again if so please practice what you preach and stick to negotiating salaries for hours worked, because as a taxpayer I don't want to pay (nor should I have to) for your sick leave, vacation, overtime, health benefits, training, minimum staffing or any other item or compensation beyond your base salary that you negotiated and recieve to do your job.

Ah there it is, the ugly truth. You seem to be one of those that considers himself a "have-not" and see career firefighters as the "haves"? Sadly the most common reason for this is that the individual was not hired somewhere when they clearly though should have been. You do realize that the benefits you don't wish to pay for were substantially negotiated in lieu of pay by your elected officials or the manager they hired? Some where along the line the government entity felt that these benefits were better deal for the citizenry as a whole then the alternatives. i suppose you could pay career firefighters convenience store wages and still fill the ranks? Anyone with a "I fight what you Fear" T-Shirt is in, huh? Maybe we could do the same for teachers or backhoe operators? Some one will come forward for whatever reason right? Heck as long as they want the job and understand the risks to themselves, screw it, hire em!? There are a lot of great volunteers out there, but guess what, they're more than likely great employees in other walks of life too. It's rare the greatness is specific to only one trade, it's more a mindset than a specific skill set.

As a firefighter and fire instructor you're opposed to minimum staffing?

Edited February 28, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[JohnnyOV 2]

While this may be true according to Websters the fact is the law says differently when defining a volunteer...and it is the law not Webster's definition that matters. The very same reasons that are often cited for the lack of volunteers or their "standards" cuts both ways. If we are to require considerably more training, certification ect from our members we need to offset that committment somehow for the impostion those requirements put upon them and their families. Or do you feel this is an unfair arrangement?

If I, as a volunteer, cannot meet the same training requirements as a career guy, what business do I have being a volunteer? We all preach that we do the same job, the dangers are the same, and that we want to be treated the same and not looked down upon by career guys, well then lets start training like them, and hold ourselves to the same standards.

I know guys from all over the fire service who are volunteers, who have the "I've been in it for 15-20 years now, why do I have to train on hose stretching or ground ladder ops since it is an easy task," mentality. Well too bad, there is the door, thank you for your 15 years of service to the town. The amount of liability on a Chief and his department now is so immense, why would you not want to demand that your firemen exceed the volunteer requirements?

Fire doesn't change when you cross the district line of Yonkers to Hastings guys (just using that as an example), lets start training and demanding accountability like it doesn't.

[ny10570 745]

Standards and requirement debates can go on forever, but I don't see how that applies here.

I get the chiefs point that this is potentially more money spent on an inferior service however I don't see this as the place to draw that line. If the volunteers are not cutting it then get someone else to do the job. However as long as the community is relying on volunteers they must offer them the same protections. This is no different than workers comp for injuries.

Someone else pointed out earlier, what about in combination depts? Two firefighters working together injure a civilian and are accused of negligence. The paid firefighter is indemnified and the volley isn't? There is no way to justify that. Concerns that lax oversight and diminished standards increase a municipalities risk are all valid, but how does hanging them out to dry fix the problem? The municipality is still on the hook for utilizing their services and not providing the proper oversight and training.

[FFPCogs 863]

Standards and requirement debates can go on forever, but I don't see how that applies here.

I get the chiefs point that this is potentially more money spent on an inferior service however I don't see this as the place to draw that line. If the volunteers are not cutting it then get someone else to do the job. However as long as the community is relying on volunteers they must offer them the same protections. This is no different than workers comp for injuries.

Someone else pointed out earlier, what about in combination depts? Two firefighters working together injure a civilian and are accused of negligence. The paid firefighter is indemnified and the volley isn't? There is no way to justify that. Concerns that lax oversight and diminished standards increase a municipalities risk are all valid, but how does hanging them out to dry fix the problem? The municipality is still on the hook for utilizing their services and not providing the proper oversight and training.

I also see the Chief's point but your comments hit the nail squarely on the head. The community that relys on volunteers in any way, shape or form must offer them the same protections. You are correct it is no different that workmen's Comp. Maybe some contributors here believe volunteers are not entitled to that coverage either if they are injured while performing their duty.

Ah there it is, the ugly truth. You seem to be one of those that considers himself a "have-not" and see career firefighters as the "haves"? Sadly the most common reason for this is that the individual was not hired somewhere when they clearly though should have been. You do realize that the benefits you don't wish to pay for were substantially negotiated in lieu of pay by your elected officials or the manager they hired? Some where along the line the government entity felt that these benefits were better deal for the citizenry as a whole then the alternatives. i suppose you could pay career firefighters convenience store wages and still fill the ranks? Anyone with a "I fight what you Fear" T-Shirt is in, huh? Maybe we could do the same for teachers or backhoe operators? Some one will come forward for whatever reason right? Heck as long as they want the job and understand the risks to themselves, screw it, hire em!? There are a lot of great volunteers out there, but guess what, they're more than likely great employees in other walks of life too. It's rare the greatness is specific to only one trade, it's more a mindset than a specific skill set.

As a firefighter and fire instructor you're opposed to minimum staffing?

I always love a good hearty laugh, and your assertions that I consider myself a "have not" is one of the best ones I've had in quite awhile...thanks. The point of my previous post is simply that volunteers have the same right and responsibility to provide for their memberships as career firefighters do, regardless of whether or not they meet your or anyone elses "standards". It is no different that a union providing for it's members by bargaining for the best possible conditions regardless of how "good" some of those firefighters are. Do I oppose minimum staffing? No I do not, but the point was made. Were the rest of the items cited also ludicrous? Of course they were, just as ludicrous as the arguments that support denying firefighters coverage because they don't meet your standards. That is not your choice to make, but that of the community which chooses to rely on volunteers, because, to use your own words, "Some where along the line the government entity" felt that volunteers "were better deal for the citizenry as a whole then the alternatives" . Part of that deal is providing for those volunteers who willingly accept the responsibility of being a firefighter for that community.

As I see it the ugly truth is there are firefighters who believe a paycheck entitles them to a monopoly on being deemed a firefighter. Sorry but that just ain't so by a long shot.

And JohhnyOV I agree 100% that there should be absolutely no diference in standards between career and volunteer firefighters. Be that as it may for now at least there are and that is not by my choice but by the choice of those empowered to make that choice. Given the authority I would indeed tie coverage, incentives and any other "perk" to performance standards, but until that time comes I will strive to ensure volunteers are provided for under the conditioins that exist ...if for no other reason than they risk their lives in the service of others. After all is that not the cornerstone of what it is to be a fireman?

Cogs

Edited February 28, 2011 by FFPCogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

Please let me reiterate what I've actually said here: I cannot see why the municipal or other governmental body would provide indemnification when they have no control over hiring, training, and discipline.

So to spell that out, it really only applies to truly private departments whom are not part of the taxing entity. As I see it, the community that "hires" you as paid call or otherwise compensated firefighters should provide you with the same protections as career guys. Now, if the state is going to grant this, I'd think they'd want to set a standard of minimum requirements, for both the entity(FD) and for the individuals(firefighters). Should the state indemnify candy stripers at the hospital? How about members of the Rotary and Kiwanis? They do good things for the community, no? Hell if they'd indemnify volunteer cops, I might join up to carry a gun. To me the issue is not whether volunteers have earned indemnification, but the responsibility to the citizens at large for such a responsibility. Clearly, requiring equal minimum requirements would go along way.

Edited February 28, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well again if so please practice what you preach and stick to negotiating salaries for hours worked, because as a taxpayer I don't want to pay (nor should I have to) for your.......minimum staffing or any other item or compensation beyond your base salary that you negotiated and recieve to do your job.

Its kind of sad that we have to "negotiate" for minimum staffing. Doesn't the Dept and the municipality have the responsibility of providing that to the community and if they acually did, there would be no reason to "negotiate".

BTW I put "negotiate" in quotes, because in NYS it is a non-mandatory item (meaning if either side says we are not talking about it then its off the table).

ps. I think there is another term for "non-mandatory", but cant remember what it is.

[JFLYNN 681]

Please let me reiterate what I've actually said here: I cannot see why the municipal or other governmental body would provide indemnification when they have no control over hiring, training, and discipline.

So to spell that out, it really only applies to truly private departments whom are not part of the taxing entity. As I see it, the community that "hires" you as paid call or otherwise compensated firefighters should provide you with the same protections as career guys. Now, if the state is going to grant this, I'd think they'd want to set a standard of minimum requirements, for both the entity(FD) and for the individuals(firefighters). Should the state indemnify candy stripers at the hospital? How about members of the Rotary and Kiwanis? They do good things for the community, no? Hell if they'd indemnify volunteer cops, I might join up to carry a gun. To me the issue is not whether volunteers have earned indemnification, but the responsibility to the citizens at large for such a responsibility. Clearly, requiring equal minimum requirements would go along way.

Nice post. It is a shame that many times it is necessary to have to reiterate what you actually say on here isn't it? As I mentioned earlier, oftentimes those who don't have a good argument based on facts will attempt to distract by attacking another issue, or by misstating what was actually said by someone on the other side of the issue.

Chief, you obviously realize that the only appropriate tactic when faced with this type of attack is to stick to the issues, keep it honest, not resort to personal attack, and repeat the message as much as necessary,using examples, humor, and whatever "teaching" skill may grab the attention of the reader, or listener.

Most of the silent majority realize this already also and can clearly see things as they truly are, same as in real life.

For many of the younger , more impressionable guys out there maybe reading these recent posts with all the unnecessary drama can serve as a valuable life lesson. Repetition breeds retention and the best response to false rumor and slander is to stay calm and patiently state and restate your case as necessary.

[JFLYNN 681]

While this may be true according to Websters the fact is the law says differently when defining a volunteer...and it is the law not Webster's definition that matters. The very same reasons that are often cited for the lack of volunteers or their "standards" cuts both ways. If we are to require considerably more training, certification ect from our members we need to offset that committment somehow for the impostion those requirements put upon them and their families. Or do you feel this is an unfair arrangement? If so I would find that somewhat hypocritical since it's no different than a union bargaining for conditions over and above their base salary for hours worked in order to "look out" for their members. Do you honestly believe that a VFD should not do all it legally can to "look out" for it's members? Well again if so please practice what you preach and stick to negotiating salaries for hours worked, because as a taxpayer I don't want to pay (nor should I have to) for your sick leave, vacation, overtime, health benefits, training, minimum staffing or any other item or compensation beyond your base salary that you negotiated and recieve to do your job.

Cogs

You don't want to use the Webster's definition for volunteer but rather what you claim is the legal definition?. However, you would definitely want to use the Webster's definition for "professional" as you would relate this word to volunteer and career firefighters, right? At least that is what I have read many times on here before. Why not use the legal definition for professional firefighter then, ok? In any courtroom, if an attorney were to refer to a Firefighter as "professional" he would undoubdetly be making the distinction between career and volunteer. You can't have it both ways, no? Funny thing is, I really don't care if a volunteer wants to share the term professional with us career guys...I get the argument...I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy in your argument.

The rest of your argument is specious and not necessary to reply to but thanks for exposing yourself still further as to your feelings vis a vis career firefighters.

[FFPCogs 863]

For many of the younger , more impressionable guys out there maybe reading these recent posts with all the unnecessary drama can serve as a valuable life lesson. Repetition breeds retention and the best response to false rumor and slander is to stay calm and patiently state and restate your case as necessary.

Exactly!!

[FFPCogs 863]

.

The rest of your argument is specious and not necessary to reply to but thanks for exposing yourself still further as to your feelings vis a vis career firefighters.

Chief it's good to see that you realize how what we post exposes our feelings vis a vis all firefighters. You have made your feelings known quite clearly time and again. Thankfully as you said repetition breeds retention for our younger more impressionable contributors.

Cogs

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Nice post. It is a shame that many times it is necessary to have to reiterate what you actually say on here isn't it? As I mentioned earlier, oftentimes those who don't have a good argument based on facts will attempt to distract by attacking another issue, or by misstating what was actually said by someone on the other side of the issue.

Chief, you obviously realize that the only appropriate tactic when faced with this type of attack is to stick to the issues, keep it honest, not resort to personal attack, and repeat the message as much as necessary,using examples, humor, and whatever "teaching" skill may grab the attention of the reader, or listener.

Most of the silent majority realize this already also and can clearly see things as they truly are, same as in real life.

For many of the younger , more impressionable guys out there maybe reading these recent posts with all the unnecessary drama can serve as a valuable life lesson. Repetition breeds retention and the best response to false rumor and slander is to stay calm and patiently state and restate your case as necessary.

Chief, Let's talk about the impressionable young guys out there, my beef with you is your obvious disdain for the Volunteer firefighter. Post after post, whenever you get the chance to knock the service you do. Now you are arguing the word "professional" and that a true Volunteer does not ask for anything. Come on now give it a rest. The only thing the "silent majority" realize is how you go out of your way to knock whatever you can. Again I know the whole qtip thing, but it's the way you feel you need to bring up certain things when you argue your case. The way you use the term "Hobby" or bring up Volunteer firefighters as arsonists. If you really felt you had to do bring that up, you should have at least mentioned the Nations worst serial arsonist was a career firefighter from Ca. Just so the impressionable young guys know the facts. You could have argued your point without bringing that up. What YOU DO convey is that you have no use for Volunteer firefighters. Hey if this is your way to "grab" the reader so be it.

How do you think some of these young guys will feel if they ever had to take a class you were teaching? Sure you can give a line of "malarkey" at the start of the class about how you view all firefighters equal, but as someone else here noted what you say here can come back to haunt you. The younger guys here see how you go out of your way to knock THEM, because most of the impressionable younger guys are Volunteers.

Be safe.

7011 out.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Some of you really need to go back and review what's actually been posted. I've yet to see anyone say that there shouldn't be volunteer firefighters, that volunteer firefighter can't be professional, or that they shouldn't be considered equals of career firefighters when the training requirements are the same. The fact is that some of you are extremely touchy about the perception that all career firefighters look down their nose at volunteers. I have to say, while that is true in some cases, in most cases, career firefighters, like volunteers, judge based on actions and what they see. S

Trust me, most career firefighters understand the financial issue facing their community and/or the one where they work. We know that there are many places where hiring career personnel is silly, still other places need to augment volunteers with paid positions, others still need volunteers to augment a career force and lastly we have all career jobs. The citizens decide what level of protection they can afford. Don't think for a minute that they don't want the most absolute best firefighters they can get, but they(we) decide via a risk/benefit analysis what they can afford to pay at the polls. Sometimes the career service does view a portion of the volunteer fire service as a degree of liability, in that when times are financially tough, some politician always points to the local VFD and says "hey they can do it for next to nothing" we need to cut jobs or stations. It's hard to argue against public perception, especially when they see what they want to see. The public doesn't see different training and hiring standards, responses times, calls unanswered until mutual aid, etc. And to top it off, there's no end to VFD guys ready to say "sure we can do it", "there's no difference", "we all fight what you fear". The problem is there is a difference, it doesn't have to be as drastic, but often it's larger than most will admit. It's not always training, or quality of work, it might be geographic mileage that harms response times, it might be the age of the membership, it might be a "good 'ole boys" network in the FD.

As I've said in other threads here, I started on a VFD and worked with some great volunteer firefighters, some I'd sooner work with than some of the career guys we've had. One of the biggest advantages I see day to day of a career FD, is the crew integrity. The whole shift knows who's doing what long before the bells ring. They know each other well enough to not need to speak a lot on routine jobs, as they've been there done that so many times before, as a team. They all know the expectations of them, from the bosses to those of each other. They spend a significant portion of their lives together making them a close knit team. If nothing else, compared to equally trained and even experienced firefighters, the crew that works, plays, eats and sleeps together will be a more cohesive effective unit.

The above being said, I'll leave you with this little ironic debate I had with our Union's VP. Our FD is a combination FD, we have about 65% career and 35% call firefighters. There is always some animosity, mostly petty, but without a doubt, many of the career guys feel the call guys don't help out with anything but the "fun" and see that they train much more than their counterparts. Some of the call folks feel like the career group doesn't have any respect for them. In fact it's mostly judgement from both sides on an individual basis until a group of either gets together and laments their problems. Anyway, the Union VP is on my crew and was really downing the call force one day. He thought the time of the volunteer was coming to an end and that maybe we should just stop bringing on new call members as they were not up to the same standard as the career force. After listening to him on his soap box I asked him and the rest of the crew how many career firefighter they thought we'd need per shift to cover up to just a second alarm before calling in outside aid? And as a second part, did they think this was an achievable goal in the next 10 years. The answer was unanimously "no way we could realistically do it". So my final question was, which volunteers do you trust more: the ones we train with and equip or the ones in the surrounding towns? I have not heard another word of dropping our call division since (about 4 years ago). The reality of our situation is that our taxpayers are already paying more than most in the area, and the call volume calls for more personnel but hardly enough to adequately staff three engines, a truck and run an ALS ambulance service. So volunteers will be fighting some fire, working some wrecks and helping here, be they ours or a mutual aid FD's. While I know some of the volunteers around us are good even great, still others are not, so I prefer our own.

/rant

Edited March 1, 2011 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

The way you use the term "Hobby" or bring up Volunteer firefighters as arsonists. If you really felt you had to do bring that up, you should have at least mentioned the Nations worst serial arsonist was a career firefighter from Ca. Just so the impressionable young guys know the facts.

Yes the impressionable young guys should know the facts about firefighter arsonest. Now can you give some examples of a career firefighter arsonest that committed his crimes after these impressionable young guys were born?

John Leonard Orr was a career fire officer and was convicted of arson and murder 20 years ago. He is currently serving a life + 20 year sentence for his crimes. Now since Orr's conviction the ATF reports 1,000s of volunteer firefighter arsonest have been caught. The problem being so bad that one county police dept in NYS offers police a video it produced called "spotting the firefighter arsonest".

[FFPCogs 863]

So to sum up this and just about every other thread:

Volunteer: Black

Career: White

Volunteer: Up

Career: Down

Volunteer: Dog

Career: Cat

Volunteer: Left

Career: Right

Volunteer: All firefighters are Brothers

Career: Only career firefighters are Brothers, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We all face the same risks when the bell hits

Career: Only career firefighters face risks, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We are professional in the performance of our duty

Career: Only career firefighters are professional, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We want to work together

Career: Only career firefighters can work together, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We meet the standards required

Career: Only career firefighters meet standards, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We should be indemnified because we risk our lives to help others

Career: Volunteers shouldn't be indemnified, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: I'm better than you because I don't get a paycheck

Career: I'm better than you because I get a paycheck, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

I think you get the point.

Cogs

Edited March 1, 2011 by FFPCogs

[efdcapt115 1,511]

So to sum up this and just about every other thread:

Volunteer: Black

Career: White

Volunteer: Up

Career: Down

Volunteer: Dog

Career: Cat

Volunteer: Left

Career: Right

Volunteer: All firefighters are Brothers

Career: Only career firefighters are Brothers, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We all face the same risks when the bell hits

Career: Only career firefighters face risks, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We are professional in the performance of our duty

Career: Only career firefighters are professional, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We want to work together

Career: Only career firefighters can work together, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We meet the standards required

Career: Only career firefighters meet standards, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We should be indemnified because we risk our lives to help others

Career: Volunteers shouldn't be indemnified, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: I'm better than you because I don't get a paycheck

Career: I'm better than you because I get a paycheck, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

I think you get the point.

Cogs

What a bunch of baloney. You've got some nerve grouping all career firefighters' opinions, and all volunteer firefighters' opinions into two polarized positions.

Grow some skin huh...and while you're at it, read Izzy's post about Brotherhood. You might learn something.

Edited March 1, 2011 by efdcapt115

[JohnnyOV 2]

So to sum up this and just about every other thread:

Volunteer: Black

Career: White

Volunteer: Up

Career: Down

Volunteer: Dog

Career: Cat

Volunteer: Left

Career: Right

Volunteer: All firefighters are Brothers

Career: Only career firefighters are Brothers, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We all face the same risks when the bell hits

Career: Only career firefighters face risks, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We are professional in the performance of our duty

Career: Only career firefighters are professional, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We want to work together

Career: Only career firefighters can work together, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We meet the standards required

Career: Only career firefighters meet standards, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We should be indemnified because we risk our lives to help others

Career: Volunteers shouldn't be indemnified, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: I'm better than you because I don't get a paycheck

Career: I'm better than you because I get a paycheck, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

I think you get the point.

Cogs

Once again, as a volunteer, I completely disagree with this statement, and don't want to be grouped into this separated mentality that we can never get along. All the career guys want, and believe it or not some of us vollies too, are equal standards across the board. How hard is that to contest? Wouldn't you want someone who was equal to you in all aspects, working along side what ever job you're doing, regardless of how dangerous it was? Wouldn't that make for a smoother operation, smother transition of information, smoother everything?

Every department has the "The A-team," "The-B squad," and the "Man I would hate to go into a hot yob with that guy," firemen. What separates the A's, the B's and the wtf is he doing in this service, is the amount of training and the quality of training that each individual undergo's. I don't think the worlds best archery shooter only trains for 100 hrs a year. He does it day in and day out year round, and always attempts to get better, because there is no such thing as perfect.... unless you're Jessica Alba, because she is perfect.

[FFPCogs 863]

What a bunch of baloney. You've got some nerve grouping all career firefighters' opinions, and all volunteer firefighters' opinions into two polarized positions.

Grow some skin huh...and while you're at it, read Izzy's post about Brotherhood. You might learn something.

Grow some skin huh? learn something? Please...my hand is always extended in the spirit of Brotherhood and working together and always will be regardless of the fact that it has been slapped away by my career "Brothers" so many times I've lost count. Maybe some should review the threads on this site (and others) and see just how many times the great divide shows itself even when the threads themselves have absolutely nothing to do with it...this one being a case in point. This thread isn't about career FFs at all but volunteers, yet here again the lines are drawn and the debate rages. Just look back in this thread and see where it turned. Now there's a lesson to be learned.

Also, just because I or others disagree with many of the views held by some of our career counterparts doesn't mean we're anti-career, it means we disagree with their views, nothing more nothing less.

Cogs

Edited March 1, 2011 by FFPCogs

[JFLYNN 681]

Chief, Let's talk about the impressionable young guys out there, my beef with you is your obvious disdain for the Volunteer firefighter. Post after post, whenever you get the chance to knock the service you do. Now you are arguing the word "professional" and that a true Volunteer does not ask for anything. Come on now give it a rest. The only thing the "silent majority" realize is how you go out of your way to knock whatever you can. Again I know the whole qtip thing, but it's the way you feel you need to bring up certain things when you argue your case. The way you use the term "Hobby" or bring up Volunteer firefighters as arsonists. If you really felt you had to do bring that up, you should have at least mentioned the Nations worst serial arsonist was a career firefighter from Ca. Just so the impressionable young guys know the facts. You could have argued your point without bringing that up. What YOU DO convey is that you have no use for Volunteer firefighters. Hey if this is your way to "grab" the reader so be it.

How do you think some of these young guys will feel if they ever had to take a class you were teaching? Sure you can give a line of "malarkey" at the start of the class about how you view all firefighters equal, but as someone else here noted what you say here can come back to haunt you. The younger guys here see how you go out of your way to knock THEM, because most of the impressionable younger guys are Volunteers.

Be safe.

7011 out.

I'm done responding directly to this guy as it's hopeless IMO. However, I will continue to respond whenever he posts inaccurate or misleading information, which is often...he continues to quote me out of context in his attempts to slander and discredit...so, follow the threads all the way through and make your own judgements.

As far as there being a serious issue in the volunteer fire service in relation to members commiting arson, well I did bring it up as part of a response to a post and not as slander. In fact, I intentionally only made a brief mention of it since I felt it was relevant, yet I was trying to be as "gentle" as possible in making my point. Since this individual has chosen to dispute my statement, I will elaborate on what many of us on this forum already know...it is correct stating that a career firefighter was the worst serial arsonist on record. There have been other cases of career firefighters commiting arson also. However, the vast, overwhelming majority of firefighter arsonists are indisputedly volunteer firefighters. I'm busy right now and I don't really see the need to harp on this issue.However, If this fact is disputed further, I am happy to provide compelling evidence .

All that being said, I will also state that (obviously) the vast, overwhelming majority of volunteer firefighters are not arsonists and are in fact, good, community minded people. This disclaimer is made in advance of what I anticipate to be another post by the above individual who will attempt to twist my words.

Edited March 1, 2011 by JFLYNN

[JFLYNN 681]

So to sum up this and just about every other thread:

Volunteer: Black

Career: White

Volunteer: Up

Career: Down

Volunteer: Dog

Career: Cat

Volunteer: Left

Career: Right

Volunteer: All firefighters are Brothers

Career: Only career firefighters are Brothers, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We all face the same risks when the bell hits

Career: Only career firefighters face risks, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We are professional in the performance of our duty

Career: Only career firefighters are professional, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We want to work together

Career: Only career firefighters can work together, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We meet the standards required

Career: Only career firefighters meet standards, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We should be indemnified because we risk our lives to help others

Career: Volunteers shouldn't be indemnified, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: I'm better than you because I don't get a paycheck

Career: I'm better than you because I get a paycheck, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

I think you get the point.

Cogs

Making blanket, all encompassing statements about groups of people is almost always wrong, as it obviously is in this case. I hope nobody takes the bait and drinks this guys poison, on either side of this issue.

[ny10570 745]

Cogs I get why you feel you're being attacked. I really do. The threads you spend a lot of time on invariably wind up focusing on the differences between career and volunteer depts. There are a lot of flaws with the volunteer fire service, there's no denying it. Volunteers are the "better" option, not the ideal product. Once you recognize that you can focus on these problems and develop a better service.

Edited March 1, 2011 by ny10570

[Geppetto 31]

Volunteer fire police patrol members push for law change

Frank MacEachern,

Greenwich Times

Monday, February 28, 2011

http://www.greenwichtime.com/local/article/Volunteer-fire-police-patrol-members-push-for-law-1035081.php

[Guest fire38]

I fight fire's as a career not as a volunteer. While trying to see the point of view of many of the volunteers, I put it in perspective for myself. In my spare time I enjoy fishing. If I am not paying attention while casting, and I set my hook into someone causing permanent scaring and possibly a disability, I will more than likely be sued. Do I deserve the same protection as the career fisherman that must fish to provide for his family? You know the risk when you joined. You do not need to volunteer to survive. If you are afraid of being sued, volunteer in a soup kitchen. They also could use a hand.

[FFPCogs 863]

I fight fire's as a career not as a volunteer. While trying to see the point of view of many of the volunteers, I put it in perspective for myself. In my spare time I enjoy fishing. If I am not paying attention while casting, and I set my hook into someone causing permanent scaring and possibly a disability, I will more than likely be sued. Do I deserve the same protection as the career fisherman that must fish to provide for his family?

This argument is laughable and I'd be laughing if the same beliefs weren't held by so many here. This attitude is why we have problems. To equate volunteer firefighting with leisure fishing is just idiotic.

You know the risk when you joined. You do not need to volunteer to survive. If you are afraid of being sued, volunteer in a soup kitchen. They also could use a hand.

Fair enough. By that logic then career FFs don't need coverage either, after all you knew the risks when you got hired. Too bad if your family suffers. Don't like it get a job as a fisherman.

Cogs

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I'm done responding directly to this guy as it's hopeless IMO. However, I will continue to respond whenever he posts inaccurate or misleading information, which is often...he continues to quote me out of context in his attempts to slander and discredit...so, follow the threads all the way through and make your own judgements.

As far as there being a serious issue in the volunteer fire service in relation to members commiting arson, well I did bring it up as part of a response to a post and not as slander. In fact, I intentionally only made a brief mention of it since I felt it was relevant, yet I was trying to be as "gentle" as possible in making my point. Since this individual has chosen to dispute my statement, I will elaborate on what many of us on this forum already know...it is correct stating that a career firefighter was the worst serial arsonist on record. There have been other cases of career firefighters commiting arson also. However, the vast, overwhelming majority of firefighter arsonists are indisputedly volunteer firefighters. I'm busy right now and I don't really see the need to harp on this issue.However, If this fact is disputed further, I am happy to provide compelling evidence .

All that being said, I will also state that (obviously) the vast, overwhelming majority of volunteer firefighters are not arsonists and are in fact, good, community minded people. This disclaimer is made in advance of what I anticipate to be another post by the above individual who will attempt to twist my words.

"This Guy" geeez....come on, you got offended when someone referred to you as "flynn".

I have to admit this has gotten out of hand a bit, we are both passionate about each side we stand on. I wont apologize for that, and I would expect no less from any member of my Dept. if they are standing up for what they believe in, and in this case the Volunteer service. I just felt some of your comments in post # 27 were uncalled for.

I am not trying to slander you, but at the end of the day my comments are not the ones that will have the "impressionable young guys" out their questioning the Brotherhood they have all heard about. Or when they approach their Officer at the house one day saying "Wow Cap, I busted my a** at that fire, I cant believe there are other firefighters out there who think what we do...what I'm doing is a Hobby." I think it's wrong to say those things, but that's just me maybe.

In the end we both have a job to do, wherever we are.

Be safe.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Volunteer fire police patrol members push for law change

Frank MacEachern,

Greenwich Times

Monday, February 28, 2011

http://www.greenwichtime.com/local/article/Volunteer-fire-police-patrol-members-push-for-law-1035081.php

"Greenwich volunteer firefighters are counting on the help of their newest member, state Rep. Alfred Camillo, R-151st District, to push through legislation they say would afford volunteers the same legal coverage as career emergency responders.Camillo, who became an associate member of the Cos Cob Fire Patrol two weeks ago,"

If firefighers figh fires and fire patrol directs traffic

Can anyone tell me what an associate fire patrol member does?

[Dinosaur 844]

So to sum up this and just about every other thread:

Volunteer: Black

Career: White

Volunteer: Up

Career: Down

Volunteer: Dog

Career: Cat

Volunteer: Left

Career: Right

Volunteer: All firefighters are Brothers

Career: Only career firefighters are Brothers, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We all face the same risks when the bell hits

Career: Only career firefighters face risks, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We are professional in the performance of our duty

Career: Only career firefighters are professional, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We want to work together

Career: Only career firefighters can work together, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: We meet the standards required

Career: Only career firefighters meet standards, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteers: We should be indemnified because we risk our lives to help others

Career: Volunteers shouldn't be indemnified, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

Volunteer: I'm better than you because I don't get a paycheck

Career: I'm better than you because I get a paycheck, volunteers are untrained, uncertified, unmotivated, uneducated scabs

I think you get the point.

Cogs

We all get your point Cogs. You're single-minded to a fault and honestly believe that everyone fits into these two narrow points of view.

Well, I don't fit into your black and white perspective and I've been both volunteer and career. I think properly trained and staffed combination departments can kick a** at a fraction of the cost of a full-time all career department and run sircles around most all-volunteer departments in response time, crew coordination, and most other fireground operations.

I'm not from Connecticut but I wish you luck with the legislation.

[gamewell45 258]

"Greenwich volunteer firefighters are counting on the help of their newest member, state Rep. Alfred Camillo, R-151st District, to push through legislation they say would afford volunteers the same legal coverage as career emergency responders.Camillo, who became an associate member of the Cos Cob Fire Patrol two weeks ago,"

If firefighers figh fires and fire patrol directs traffic

Can anyone tell me what an associate fire patrol member does?

If this volunteer fire department is like most; its probably social in nature. If not, then who knows?

[FFPCogs 863]

We all get your point Cogs. You're single-minded to a fault and honestly believe that everyone fits into these two narrow points of view.

I'm not sure you do. As I stated earlier the career vs volunteer debate manages to creep into many of the threads here (and elsewhere) regardless of the topic at hand. Invariably the lines get drawn as neither "side" looks at the issue for what it is but dutifully stands toe to toe on their "side" of the fence. A good example being this thread which is not about career firefighters but volunteers, yet here it is again. Another would be the ubiquitous use of the standard caveat "but" as in "volunteers help the community but....." or "paid really care about the community but....." Now if some think I'm "single minded" or anti-career, that's fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. I happen to believe differently. A review of the topics here will amply demonstrate who stands where and who is willing to be objective a majority of the time, and who is consistently "single minded to a fault" in expressing their opnions of the issues. It will also show who reaches out across the "line" regularly and who doesn't.

Well, I don't fit into your black and white perspective and I've been both volunteer and career. I think properly trained and staffed combination departments can kick a** at a fraction of the cost of a full-time all career department and run sircles around most all-volunteer departments in response time, crew coordination, and most other fireground operations.

Great, we need more like you then. People who have a truly objective view of the fire service and who realize that both career and volunteer firefighters share the commitment to provide for the safety and welfare of the communities they serve...communities by the way that have chosen their service.

I'm not from Connecticut but I wish you luck with the legislation.

Thank you

Cogs

Edited March 2, 2011 by FFPCogs