Fire officials support bill to indemnify volunteers

[FFPCogs 863]

, but training needs to be a municipal priority.

Although off topic I wholeheartedly agree. But if we are to demand standards we must also make the training to attain those standards obtainable by all. That means someone has to foot the bill and that someone usually means the taxpayers that will benefit from those standards. That also means that we as a service, career and volunteer alike, must work together to ensure that funding is available so that all, including those taxpayers, may benefit.

I can't speak for any other FD but for us we not only want minimum standards in line or better than those of our career counterparts, we do everything within our capacity to ensure them to better serve our community. That said we have many discussions within our training division on this subject. How to encourage the members to meet higher standards, how to require them to do so when necessary, what standards above and beyond the minimums to pursue and so on. In the end though the discussion always comes back to one inescapable fact...we simply don't have the money to do it all. Like many other facets impacting the fire service it becomes a matter of enlightening the bean counters that the money spent is not an expense, but an investment...and that is a fight we are more likely to win if we fight it together.

Cogs

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If we are doing the same job and performing the same tasks in the same way, why are there different minimum standards? Based on your logic, career minimum standards must be too srtingent, no?

This will be my last post on this as well, the hell with the bill, like it or not we do the same thing, ON THE FIREGROUND. I never said career standards are wrong, but maybe for many Volunteer Depts.s the Volunteer standards work, and most of these do alot more training on their own. There are many great Volunteer Depts out there. You are just one of those career guys who cannot stand the fact that Volunteers exsist. That there are volunteers in most of this coumtry doing what you do as a career for free...and will still be donig long after you retire.

Be safe.

Edited February 22, 2011 by spin_the_wheel

[gamewell45 258]

This will be my last post on this as well, the hell with the bill, like it or not we do the same thing, ON THE FIREGROUND. I never said career standards are wrong, but maybe for many Volunteer Depts.s the Volunteer standards work, and most of these do alot more training on their own. There are many great Volunteer Depts out there. You are just one of those career guys who cannot stand the fact that Volunteers exsist. That there are volunteers in most of this coumtry doing what you do as a career for free...and will still be donig long after you retire.

Be safe.

Amen Brother!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Many communities just cannot afford a career department and the amount of runs just cannot justify the cost. A department with under 200 runs a year just cannot justify 50 career members plus officers.

You are correct at 200 calls per year you can't justify career, but you also can't justify multiple fire stations, 3 engines, ladders, rescues, special teams, etc. And when you take out the automatic alarms and the minor calls you end up with 1 or 2 working fires per year, which is not enough to gain experience so as to be efficient and effective.

Now whats interesting is other states and even other countries manage to cover these areas better than we do. Some with volunteers, some career and some combo. And they pay less in taxes, because they spread the burden out over a larger tax base.

The further north you go into the rural areas the poorer some of hte departments are and some barely keep up with keeping equipment running, and have no where near the latest and greatest.

But this is not the case in Westchester.

I for one do not want to pay any more taxes and have thought many times to pack it in and leave NY.... So where does it end...Economics.

You are correct its economics, so tell me how do regional depts throughout the country manage to do it for less than here, with better responses, and with better insurance ratings, which saves the community 2 x 4 times what it costs to provide better fire protection?

Last year I did a little research into what different depts spent on a per capita basis in Westchester and was very surprised to fine that the taxpayers in my city pay less per capita than those in about 1/2 the volunteer communities (and I stopped looking when I got to 1/2), and that includes paying for hydrants (and 30-40% less in insurance). How about this Yonkers with better staffing than NR spends less per capita and FDNY spends even less.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

You are correct at 200 calls per year you can't justify career, but you also can't justify multiple fire stations, 3 engines, ladders, rescues, special teams, etc. And when you take out the automatic alarms and the minor calls you end up with 1 or 2 working fires per year, which is not enough to gain experience so as to be efficient and effective.

Now whats interesting is other states and even other countries manage to cover these areas better than we do. Some with volunteers, some career and some combo. And they pay less in taxes, because they spread the burden out over a larger tax base.

But this is not the case in Westchester.

You are correct its economics, so tell me how do regional depts throughout the country manage to do it for less than here, with better responses, and with better insurance ratings, which saves the community 2 x 4 times what it costs to provide better fire protection?

Last year I did a little research into what different depts spent on a per capita basis in Westchester and was very surprised to fine that the taxpayers in my city pay less per capita than those in about 1/2 the volunteer communities (and I stopped looking when I got to 1/2), and that includes paying for hydrants (and 30-40% less in insurance). How about this Yonkers with better staffing than NR spends less per capita and FDNY spends even less.

Can you post/cite your research? I would like to know what figures and data points you are using.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can you post/cite your research? I would like to know what figures and data points you are using.

Depends on which item.

For the per capita figures I just went to each depts. budget as posted on either the fire dist website or the assessors website. The compared it to the census data.

The insurance figures are based on ISO data and my own work, that I charge communities for or are part of work product that’s the property of Pace University's Michaelian Institute (I perform research there on fire service economics, and delivery models)

Edited February 22, 2011 by Bnechis

[191SH 4]

The end for me too on this

To all my volley brothers out there dont let a couple of bad apples get you down I know how hard we train here in westchester and I have been to many drills , classes and even mutual aid fires with most of you and and think we do an outstanding job. I have been to many classes with guys from both sides and the volleys for sure have to upper hand in many areas the one that sticks out the most is we do this for the love of it NOT FOR THE UNION , not for the money and not for the glory. We have an outstanding training center here in Westchester run by some of the top carrer guys in the county ( no Yonkers guys ???? ) and along with that training and our in house I know and seen what you guys can do and we do it with less .......... and we dont milk AFLACK ..

PERKS ya I get free sweaters for my hard work in the FD , Flynn you have this knowledge why dont you teach at Westchester and help the volunteers be better if you think we are under trained or does Pagano not allow it ??

I have one serious question for you Chief and I want an honest answer. Do you have a problem with Volleys going to a service for a fallen career guy , as a volley I would love to show my respects for ANY LODD but I know first hand Pagano dont like the thought of it - how do you feel about that ?

I do not want to cite a specific instance but please answer honestly only if you could.

[Dinosaur 844]

This will be my last post on this as well, the hell with the bill, like it or not we do the same thing, ON THE FIREGROUND. I never said career standards are wrong, but maybe for many Volunteer Depts.s the Volunteer standards work, and most of these do alot more training on their own. There are many great Volunteer Depts out there. You are just one of those career guys who cannot stand the fact that Volunteers exsist. That there are volunteers in most of this coumtry doing what you do as a career for free...and will still be donig long after you retire.

Be safe.

So long as there are two different standards there will always be problems. One standard, one title firefighter.

Anything else is an opening for naysayers wehther they're right or not.

[Dinosaur 844]

You are correct at 200 calls per year you can't justify career, but you also can't justify multiple fire stations, 3 engines, ladders, rescues, special teams, etc. And when you take out the automatic alarms and the minor calls you end up with 1 or 2 working fires per year, which is not enough to gain experience so as to be efficient and effective.

Now whats interesting is other states and even other countries manage to cover these areas better than we do. Some with volunteers, some career and some combo. And they pay less in taxes, because they spread the burden out over a larger tax base.

But this is not the case in Westchester.

You are correct its economics, so tell me how do regional depts throughout the country manage to do it for less than here, with better responses, and with better insurance ratings, which saves the community 2 x 4 times what it costs to provide better fire protection?

Last year I did a little research into what different depts spent on a per capita basis in Westchester and was very surprised to fine that the taxpayers in my city pay less per capita than those in about 1/2 the volunteer communities (and I stopped looking when I got to 1/2), and that includes paying for hydrants (and 30-40% less in insurance). How about this Yonkers with better staffing than NR spends less per capita and FDNY spends even less.

What do you expect with 500 fire departments in the metro area? A couple hundred on Long Island, 50-60 in Westchester, plus countless others in the other suburban counties.

Only NJ has started to regionalize and they've had some success with it.

Westchester could be well served with 5-6 FD's not 10x that. Imagine the savings if we aimed for that. Big, busy combination departments with all sorts of possibilities for hiring, advancement, training, experience. Wow, just like most of the rest of the country.

[JFLYNN 681]

The end for me too on this

To all my volley brothers out there dont let a couple of bad apples get you down I know how hard we train here in westchester and I have been to many drills , classes and even mutual aid fires with most of you and and think we do an outstanding job. I have been to many classes with guys from both sides and the volleys for sure have to upper hand in many areas the one that sticks out the most is we do this for the love of it NOT FOR THE UNION , not for the money and not for the glory. We have an outstanding training center here in Westchester run by some of the top carrer guys in the county ( no Yonkers guys ???? ) and along with that training and our in house I know and seen what you guys can do and we do it with less .......... and we dont milk AFLACK ..

PERKS ya I get free sweaters for my hard work in the FD , Flynn you have this knowledge why dont you teach at Westchester and help the volunteers be better if you think we are under trained or does Pagano not allow it ??

I have one serious question for you Chief and I want an honest answer. Do you have a problem with Volleys going to a service for a fallen career guy , as a volley I would love to show my respects for ANY LODD but I know first hand Pagano dont like the thought of it - how do you feel about that ?

I do not want to cite a specific instance but please answer honestly only if you could.

All right I will bite...first of all, in the future feel free to refer to me as John, Mr. Flynn, Chief, or even brother (what the heck), but "Flynn" is just rude and disrespectful....

You have made an awful lot of accusations and insults in your rambling, gramatically butchered post, as you have in others. I won't take the bait and will continue to be civil.

At one time I did teach many classes as a NYS adjunct instructor at Camp Smith in Peekskill. I enjoyed it and met a lot of great, dedicated people, including many volunteers. I love the fire service and would have continued teaching but for one major issue....many (not all) of the volunteers who showed up for classes I taught (mainly tech rescue) had absolutely no business being there. Their basic skills were virtually non- existent and they were signing up for advanced training. Some were so incredibly out of shape that they could not climb a flight of stairs without becoming winded. However, there was no mechanism for failing anyone. The unwritten rule was that if you showed up and stayed all day (or weekend) you passed. Some may disagree with this and state that instructors did have the ability to fail a student but I doubt anyone will be able to document many cases of this at Camp Smith. The system was very geared toward volunteers witth the overwhelming majority of classes on the weekends which I also thought unfair. Career guys are forced to work many weekends and nights as it is.

I began to feel that my serving as an instructor in this system, even though I did enjoy it,was hypocritical, so I stopped.

As far as who attends a service for a fallen firefighter, it would be absolutely none of my business to "have a problem with it". Only appropriate family members would be able to speak to that.

You mentioned Tony Pagano a couple of times. If you have a problem with him I suggest you take it up with him in whatever way you feel is appropriate. As far as I can tell, he has never been on this forum and he has nothing to do one way or the other with what we are talking about here.

It is pathetic to me that, due to the fact that you and others have so weak of an argument in regard to this issue, you have chosen to make attacks against me personally and against the career fire service in general. I have stated before that there are many good, solid people in the volunteer fire service...many serving the community where I and my family live. Over the years, I have had the courage to respectfully and openly disagree or criticize where I see fit. I have never found it necessary to make it personal as you have, and I believe most reasonable individuals, career or volunteer, see that.

Edited February 23, 2011 by JFLYNN

[MoFire390 118]

Or, how about this...most of the departments apparatus and members are far away at a parade when a serious or fatal fire occurs? Should the leadership of the department be indemnified for this negligence?

why is it when things dont go the way you have hoped they would u bring up the fact that volunteer departments go to parades?? i mean really its getting old and tired of the abuse as a volunteer firefighter who goes to parades is getting. this isnt a perfect world and nobody is perfect. everytime i come on this site i see what u post and to be honest some of it makes me sick. stop treating us (the volunteers who do firefighting for free) a hard time. remember no matter how u look at it and how u say it we are ALL DOING THE SAME JOB!!!!! FIGHTING FIRES!!!!!!!!!!!

just my feelings

[MoFire390 118]

All right I will bite...first of all, in the future feel free to refer to me as John, Mr. Flynn, Chief, or even brother (what the heck), but "Flynn" is just rude and disrespectful....

You have made an awful lot of accusations and insults in your rambling, gramatically butchered post, as you have in others. I won't take the bait and will continue to be civil.

At one time I did teach many classes as a NYS adjunct instructor at Camp Smith in Peekskill. I enjoyed it and met a lot of great, dedicated people, including many volunteers. I love the fire service and would have continued teaching but for one major issue....many (not all) of the volunteers who showed up for classes I taught (mainly tech rescue) had absolutely no business being there. Their basic skills were virtually non- existent and they were signing up for advanced training. Some were so incredibly out of shape that they could not climb a flight of stairs without becoming winded. However, there was no mechanism for failing anyone. The unwritten rule was that if you showed up and stayed all day (or weekend) you passed. Some may disagree with this and state that instructors did have the ability to fail a student but I doubt anyone will be able to document many cases of this at Camp Smith. The system was very geared toward volunteers witth the overwhelming majority of classes on the weekends which I also thought unfair. Career guys are forced to work many weekends and nights as it is.

I began to feel that my serving as an instructor in this system, even though I did enjoy it,was hypocritical, so I stopped.

As far as who attends a service for a fallen firefighter, it would be absolutely none of my business to "have a problem with it". Only appropriate family members would be able to speak to that.

You mentioned Tony Pagano a couple of times. If you have a problem with him I suggest you take it up with him in whatever way you feel is appropriate. As far as I can tell, he has never been on this forum and he has nothing to do one way or the other with what we are talking about here.

It is pathetic to me that, due to the fact that you and others have so weak of an argument in regard to this issue, you have chosen to make attacks against me personally and against the career fire service in general. I have stated before that there are many good, solid people in the volunteer fire service...many serving the community where I and my family live. Over the years, I have had the courage to respectfully and openly disagree or criticize where I see fit. I have never found it necessary to make it personal as you have, and I believe most reasonable individuals, career or volunteer, see that.

chief im sorry but who are u to say that people shouldnt be taking a class??? reguardless if they showed up or not...atleast they had the oppertunity to take the trainning...how they did in the class idk i wasnt there.

[JFLYNN 681]

why is it when things dont go the way you have hoped they would u bring up the fact that volunteer departments go to parades?? i mean really its getting old and tired of the abuse as a volunteer firefighter who goes to parades is getting. this isnt a perfect world and nobody is perfect. everytime i come on this site i see what u post and to be honest some of it makes me sick. stop treating us (the volunteers who do firefighting for free) a hard time. remember no matter how u look at it and how u say it we are ALL DOING THE SAME JOB!!!!! FIGHTING FIRES!!!!!!!!!!!

just my feelings

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the reply. I am sorry your feelings have been hurt. You seem like a nice young man who means well. I wish we could agree on these issues but I guess we can't. Be safe out there, ok?

[JFLYNN 681]

chief im sorry but who are u to say that people shouldnt be taking a class??? reguardless if they showed up or not...atleast they had the oppertunity to take the trainning...how they did in the class idk i wasnt there.

OK, Ken I will keep this in mind in the future. Thanks!

[ajsbear 11]

You are correct at 200 calls per year you can't justify career, but you also can't justify multiple fire stations, 3 engines, ladders, rescues, special teams, etc. And when you take out the automatic alarms and the minor calls you end up with 1 or 2 working fires per year, which is not enough to gain experience so as to be efficient and effective.

Now whats interesting is other states and even other countries manage to cover these areas better than we do. Some with volunteers, some career and some combo. And they pay less in taxes, because they spread the burden out over a larger tax base.

But this is not the case in Westchester.

You are correct its economics, so tell me how do regional departments throughout the country manage to do it for less than here, with better responses, and with better insurance ratings, which saves the community 2 x 4 times what it costs to provide better fire protection?

Last year I did a little research into what different departments spent on a per capita basis in Westchester and was very surprised to fine that the taxpayers in my city pay less per capita than those in about 1/2 the volunteer communities (and I stopped looking when I got to 1/2), and that includes paying for hydrants (and 30-40% less in insurance). How about this Yonkers with better staffing than NR spends less per capita and FDNY spends even less.

Barry I agree with you. There is way too much equipment in Westchester and Putnam. More than anyplace else except maybe LI. Look at per square mile or by population. Each town, Look at all the departments in the town of Ossining, Greenburg, Cortlandt, North Castle or any of the other towns. Why does each department in a given town need a ladder and a rescue? At 1/2 million plus each why are we replacing many of them? I see a whole new argument starting.

[Dinosaur 844]

chief im sorry but who are u to say that people shouldnt be taking a class??? reguardless if they showed up or not...atleast they had the oppertunity to take the trainning...how they did in the class idk i wasnt there.

Mo, I think you need to re-read your post and make sure you mean what you're saying.

Are you realy suggesting that it doesn't matter who shows up for a class and an instructor should pass people who don't deserve to be passed? That's nuts. This isn't just school you may need the training to save your life or my life. You damn well better be paying attention and be proficient.

You should not be allowed to attend an intermediate course if you're not competent with basic skills. If the instructor sees that you're not up to the task they absolutely should be able to dismiss you. What good are people with a book full of certificates that can't be backed up with performance?

"regardless if they showed up or not" I hope your'e not suggesting that a student should be passed along if they don't show up for the required sessions. What good is that?

You may not have been there to judge how they did in the class but the instructor was. If you can't tie a knot should be allowed to call yourself a rope rescue technician? Come on, you're taking this too far now.

[Dinosaur 844]

why is it when things dont go the way you have hoped they would u bring up the fact that volunteer departments go to parades?? i mean really its getting old and tired of the abuse as a volunteer firefighter who goes to parades is getting. this isnt a perfect world and nobody is perfect. everytime i come on this site i see what u post and to be honest some of it makes me sick. stop treating us (the volunteers who do firefighting for free) a hard time. remember no matter how u look at it and how u say it we are ALL DOING THE SAME JOB!!!!! FIGHTING FIRES!!!!!!!!!!!

just my feelings

You missed the chief's point. His point is how does a department defend itself from liability in the event that its personnel and apparatus are out of town when a tragedy strikes.

Maybe bnechis can tell us what ISO says about maintaining coverage. I imagine mutual aid is fine but not for first due coverage but hey I've been retired for a while and may not be up to date on the latest standards.

Nope, nobody is perfect but this is a thread about liability and the chief asked a question about liability. He didn't say parades are bad or that FD shouldn't be in them but when you send half (or more) of your firefighting force and front-line apparatus three counties away for a parade there is a liability question. I think his FD even participates in parades within his city but that's not the point of the thread.

People really take these discussions too much to heart and don't think about the issues. They just get emotional and defensive. Try seeing it from someone elses perspective not your own.

[Dinosaur 844]

Barry I agree with you. There is way too much equipment in Westchester and Putnam. More than anyplace else except maybe LI. Look at per square mile or by population. Each town, Look at all the departments in the town of Ossining, Greenburg, Cortlandt, North Castle or any of the other towns. Why does each department in a given town need a ladder and a rescue? At 1/2 million plus each why are we replacing many of them? I see a whole new argument starting.

Because they can and if you suggest otherwise you get home rule thrown in your face. Time for a change.

[Dinosaur 844]

I have one serious question for you Chief and I want an honest answer. Do you have a problem with Volleys going to a service for a fallen career guy , as a volley I would love to show my respects for ANY LODD but I know first hand Pagano dont like the thought of it - how do you feel about that ?

I do not want to cite a specific instance but please answer honestly only if you could.

This is disgusting and I can't believe the moderators let this comment stand.

If you're sincere about showing your respects, you don your class A's and go to the funeral. You don't make snide comments here about something as sacred as a brother's funeral.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe bnechis can tell us what ISO says about maintaining coverage. I imagine mutual aid is fine but not for first due coverage but hey I've been retired for a while and may not be up to date on the latest standards.

Just like the fire in Mrs. Jomes Kitchen, ISO does not care about parades. They expect a response with a minimum of 2 engines (not including engines for water supply in non hydranted areas) and either a truck or service comany (rescue) basrd on the size of the building. And most important they require 36 volunteer firefighters and 1 IC or 12 career firefghters and 1 IC (In combo dept each career ff gets credit for 3 volunteer slots).

This has been the MINIMUM standard for 107 years,

If your dept. cant manage to do this its time to do something about it.

By summer 2011 they will be changing this standard. To meet NFPA 1710 & 1720 they are going to add 4 additional career (2 for SAR & 2 for FAST) as a minimum (which if there formula holds true means 12 additional volunteers are needed). They also in response to both 1720 and OSHA 2in 2out will require that any depts that normally respond with fewer than 6 members will automatically become an ISO 9 (10 is no fire protection).

[MoFire390 118]

Mo, I think you need to re-read your post and make sure you mean what you're saying.

Are you realy suggesting that it doesn't matter who shows up for a class and an instructor should pass people who don't deserve to be passed? That's nuts. This isn't just school you may need the training to save your life or my life. You damn well better be paying attention and be proficient.

You should not be allowed to attend an intermediate course if you're not competent with basic skills. If the instructor sees that you're not up to the task they absolutely should be able to dismiss you. What good are people with a book full of certificates that can't be backed up with performance?

"regardless if they showed up or not" I hope your'e not suggesting that a student should be passed along if they don't show up for the required sessions. What good is that?

You may not have been there to judge how they did in the class but the instructor was. If you can't tie a knot should be allowed to call yourself a rope rescue technician? Come on, you're taking this too far now.

dinosaur, your right maybe i didnt think about what i was typing down.

[FFPCogs 863]

Guys,

Let me throw a couple of tidbits out here that hopefully all (paid and volunteer alike) will heed in the future.

1) A longtime ago a very wise person once told me "careful what you say (or type in this case) because once it comes out of your mouth (or keyboard) the harm is done and you can NEVER take it back".

Moral of the story....think before you speak (or hit enter)

2) When you point at others there's three fingers pointing back at yourself. ( If you don't think so point with your index finger...where are the middle, ring and pinky?....yep that's right, pointing right back at you)

Moral of this story....Look at yourself before pointing out the faults of others or their departments

Just one more for thought from Eleanor Roosevelt:

" Great minds discuss ideas

Average minds discuss events

Small minds discuss other people"

Which are you great or small?

More importantly, which would you rather be?

Cogs

Edited February 25, 2011 by FFPCogs

[191SH 4]

This is disgusting and I can't believe the moderators let this comment stand.

If you're sincere about showing your respects, you don your class A's and go to the funeral. You don't make snide comments here about something as sacred as a brother's funeral.

class A's were don for a funeral and we were asked to leave because we (8 of us)were volunteers.(and thats how it happened ) The question wasnt out of disrespect and whats wrong with it being answered. Maybe the moderators should just let us discuss our differences and stop with all the restrictions.

I apologized to Chief Flynn for call him Flynn which was nothing more than a type O and they removed the apology that is disgusting.

Edited February 25, 2011 by 191SH

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Wow this topic really got some people mad. We've got everything in this thread from Tony Pagano to Eleanor Roosevelt!

Some people have quit the board because of this discussion? C'mon fellas we've got to have thicker skins than that. The original question was about volunteer firefighters being indemnified.

There was a thread in here recently about one of the police officers in Mount Pleasant, and a fund raiser that is being held for him because of attorney fees. Even if you are a municipal employee and things get bad, there are going to be associated costs it appears.

Now, in my opinion I think absolutely yes, volunteer firefighters should be indemnified, have some protection if they are going to be out there fighting fires in their districts. The question comes down to; who is going to pay for it, and what are they going to pay for?

My answer for New York State is the Volunteer Benevolent Associations should be footing the bill to provide protection for their membership in the form of covering attorney fees and possibly purchasing blanket malpractice insurance to cover all volunteer firefighters, who in the performance of any actions associated with the duties of being a firefighter are sued.

VBAs get two percent money in NYS. In many cases these organizations end up banking millions of dollars, because of what the law limits the money being spent on. If I remember correctly, it can only be spent on things that benefit the entire membership. I've known volunteer firefighters who were very frustrated at the fact that the only thing their VBA was paying for, was a death benefit. It wasn't a huge amount either; basically enough to cover burial costs.

What better reason could we think of to spend VBA 2 percent money, than to provide that security for every member in a department? Knowing that attorney fees and insurance against lawsuits would be provided would probably help volunteer recruitment and retention.

If the laws in New York State prohibit this, what better cause could be lobbied for to make the necessary changes in said laws, so that this can become a reality for NYS volunteer firefighters?

Your Benevolent is a bit like our Union is it not? It is supposed to provide something for the membership, and that should be protection, as much as it is possible.

[ex-commish 490]

Guys,

Let me throw a couple of tidbits out here that hopefully all (paid and volunteer alike) will heed in the future.

1) A longtime ago a very wise person once told me "careful what you say (or type in this case) because once it comes out of your mouth (or keyboard) the harm is done and you can NEVER take it back".

Moral of the story....think before you speak (or hit enter)

2) When you point at others there's three fingers pointing back at yourself. ( If you don't think so point with your index finger...where are the middle, ring and pinky?....yep that's right, pointing right back at you)

Moral of this story....Look at yourself before pointing out the faults of others or their departments

Just one more for thought from Eleanor Roosevelt:

" Great minds discuss ideas

Average minds discuss events

Small minds discuss other people"

Which are you great or small?

More importantly, which would you rather be?

Cogs

Well said....thank you.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Researching for another thread, came across this article regarding volunteer firefighter liability, department liability, and a series of court rulings regarding a lawsuit from this particular incident:

http://thecompanyofficer.com/tag/manlius-ny-firefighter-john-ginocchetti/

[Doc 11]

I don't understand...I am an active volunteer...no, not for a Fire Department, but for a number of other organizations....anyway, for our various volunteer activities, my fellow volunteers and I do not ask for, not do we receive indemnification from lawsuits...in fact, my fellow volunteers and I do not ask for or receive pensions, tax breaks, medical insurance, free pool or gym memberships, clubhouses to hang out in, or anything else in return because we are..."volunteers" (imagine that!)

I am incredibly uncomfortable as a taxpayer taking on the liability for anyone who decides to join the local fire or EMS organization...essentially that is what this legislation is asking taxpayers to do...to be on the hook for the actions or inactions of an organization of individuals who essentially are not under the control of local government and thus, not accountable to the taxpayer who is being asked to take on the liability.

I look forward to hearing the opinions of my fellow EMT Bravo members on this topic.

qtip

On behalf of social service, religious organization and government employees that various volunteer activities displace, I ask why so many insist on parading around with this self-righteous volunteerism? Whatever job opportunities a persons selfish sense of satisfaction compels them to deny others is work that a person could otherwise be gainfully employed at.

Soup kitchen? I'm sure professional food industry workers would like to make a living doing that work.

Animal shelter? City and county animal control employees must be thankful for the bread taken from their tables.

Big Brothers/Sisters? Social services and school district guidance workers frown on such self-righteous interference in their critical efforts.

Missionary work? This persistent interference in the functioning of local government perpetuates the very dysfunction it espouse to alleviate. The deplorable conditions in many third world countries continues because no locally derived reforms can gain traction in the face of free handouts and interference from the well-meaning but short sighted wealthy foreigners.

Elder care? The nursing home industry is already besot with impenetrable cost structures and lack of funding; unfair competition by rogue organizations operated with "free" and untrained staffing further degrades care for the elderly and may indeed result in sub-standard care throughout the field.

The fact is that every activity undertaken as an act of charity is, in effect, taking the food fro mthe tables of those who have chosen that work as a profession. Furthermore, handouts and "charity" only serve to foster dependence. It also gives government agencies the false sense that their taxpayer supported services are adequate to actual needs, preventign the opening of living wage jobs that are, in fact, needed.

I am uncomfortable that an amateur, with an unknown background in whatever specious activities they engage in, could interfere in the provision of critical humanitarian services otherwise provided by credentialed and screened professionals. It has been said before that the only tool good enough to do a job is the tool paid for at the highest possible cost. Anything less is shortchanging the customer.

That some of these do-gooders have decided to rightfully accept personal liability for any potential malpractice, injury or omission while embarking in this "wild west" world of doing the jobs of others for free is our only solace. Work without compensation in any arena is an affront to order and capitalism and those miscreants who perpetuate it should face all the risk of their antisocial freelancing. The most compassionate effort any true American can make is to ensure that no work is done without payment and that all contracts are are honored at dire risk of exorbitant civil or criminal penalty.

And, yes, QTIP

[JFLYNN 681]

On behalf of social service, religious organization and government employees that various volunteer activities displace, I ask why so many insist on parading around with this self-righteous volunteerism? Whatever job opportunities a persons selfish sense of satisfaction compels them to deny others is work that a person could otherwise be gainfully employed at.

Soup kitchen? I'm sure professional food industry workers would like to make a living doing that work.

Animal shelter? City and county animal control employees must be thankful for the bread taken from their tables.

Big Brothers/Sisters? Social services and school district guidance workers frown on such self-righteous interference in their critical efforts.

Missionary work? This persistent interference in the functioning of local government perpetuates the very dysfunction it espouse to alleviate. The deplorable conditions in many third world countries continues because no locally derived reforms can gain traction in the face of free handouts and interference from the well-meaning but short sighted wealthy foreigners.

Elder care? The nursing home industry is already besot with impenetrable cost structures and lack of funding; unfair competition by rogue organizations operated with "free" and untrained staffing further degrades care for the elderly and may indeed result in sub-standard care throughout the field.

The fact is that every activity undertaken as an act of charity is, in effect, taking the food fro mthe tables of those who have chosen that work as a profession. Furthermore, handouts and "charity" only serve to foster dependence. It also gives government agencies the false sense that their taxpayer supported services are adequate to actual needs, preventign the opening of living wage jobs that are, in fact, needed.

I am uncomfortable that an amateur, with an unknown background in whatever specious activities they engage in, could interfere in the provision of critical humanitarian services otherwise provided by credentialed and screened professionals. It has been said before that the only tool good enough to do a job is the tool paid for at the highest possible cost. Anything less is shortchanging the customer.

That some of these do-gooders have decided to rightfully accept personal liability for any potential malpractice, injury or omission while embarking in this "wild west" world of doing the jobs of others for free is our only solace. Work without compensation in any arena is an affront to order and capitalism and those miscreants who perpetuate it should face all the risk of their antisocial freelancing. The most compassionate effort any true American can make is to ensure that no work is done without payment and that all contracts are are honored at dire risk of exorbitant civil or criminal penalty.

And, yes, QTIP

I will give you and A for effort and originality. It was also refreshing to see a poster on the other side of this issue make a gramatically correct post with no spelling errors and no personal attacks. Good for you! You obvously realize that humor and deflection are excellent tactics to use in a debate when the facts are just not on your side.

However, the point still remains...a true volunteer does not ask for or receive compensation for the services provided.

[FFPCogs 863]

However, the point still remains...a true volunteer does not ask for or receive compensation for the services provided.

While this may be true according to Websters the fact is the law says differently when defining a volunteer...and it is the law not Webster's definition that matters. The very same reasons that are often cited for the lack of volunteers or their "standards" cuts both ways. If we are to require considerably more training, certification ect from our members we need to offset that committment somehow for the impostion those requirements put upon them and their families. Or do you feel this is an unfair arrangement? If so I would find that somewhat hypocritical since it's no different than a union bargaining for conditions over and above their base salary for hours worked in order to "look out" for their members. Do you honestly believe that a VFD should not do all it legally can to "look out" for it's members? Well again if so please practice what you preach and stick to negotiating salaries for hours worked, because as a taxpayer I don't want to pay (nor should I have to) for your sick leave, vacation, overtime, health benefits, training, minimum staffing or any other item or compensation beyond your base salary that you negotiated and recieve to do your job.

Cogs

Edited February 28, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Stepjam 118]

The longer I served as a volunteer (EMS) and the more I saw, the more aware I became of the tremendous exposure I had to financial ruin via lawsuits, not to mention the threats to my personal health and safety. I try to stay on top of the latest protocols, but I have let my EMT certification lapse and don't volunteer anymore. It was a tremendous responsibility that I, and many others like me, willingly accepted and did our best to meet. I just grew very uneasy with the risk I assumed. I felt this adversely affected my efficiency, so to be fair I stepped back.

However, I will not hesitate to offer first aid to someone on a "Good Samaritan" basis. My position may invite some scorn, but hey......I'm just being honest here. As always.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Stepjam