Two Steps Forward, One Step Back

[Guest 29-Indigo]

Today, while sitting at the VAC I kept hearing a certain Westchester FD tone out and tone out and tone out for manpower. After 15-20 minutes, they called a neighboring department Mutual Aid. We all know how bad some VACs are, but it is B-A-D when an FD is unable to cover a call.

And, around the same time as this, I couldn't help but notice a 60 Control dispatcher trying to communicate with a unit, and telling that unit he can't hear them because another self dispatched FD was all over 46.26. Don't they have / use a fire ground channel???

I call this two steps forward, one step back as there are plenty of departments that make that extra effort to be as professional as they can be, and then you have departments like the ones mentioned that set us all back in time.

It's 2011 guys. Either get with the times or give up.

Edited February 18, 2011 by x635
Department names removed per EMTBravo specific department naming policy (See forum rules for further)

[mreis95 77]

I highly disagree with you posting the department's name for starters. Second what agency are you in let's see how good you guys are. Everyone has issues there is atleast one dept in that same area that's worse than the one you listed, but everyone has issues no one can be as perfect as your agency.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I also disagree with you posting the names of the departments. With that said, all FD's or VAC's have their issues. Of course you want to get out the door real quick for all calls, but sometimes, the personnel are just not available for some reason or another. Having to call another department to cover a call, yes it is not good, but does happen. The important thing is that an FD or VAC shows up for the call. Everyone has their good and bad days.

I don't think it is a good idea to discuss it because in all honesty, your VAC could have the same problem getting out tomorrow. People are so quick to point out when other agencies have trouble getting out but when it is your own department...excuse after excuse comes out. Mutual aids happen, get over it and get out for the next one.

What VAC/FD are you part of? You name the agencies that are involved in the incident and the ons that your are pointing fingers out but don't name yours? Why is this? Do you think that if people new your FD or VAC they would know when you and your fellow members fail to get out in a timely manner or at all?

All I'm saying is that from my experience with discussions like this on this forum and others, when someone points a finger at one agency, shortly after people are pointing fingers right back because your agency could not get out.

[JTF429 37]

I don't recall seeing a name of a department listed. Reguardless of having a good day or bad day when I call 911 I excpect to see emergency services there in less than 20 mins. If you can not get out then have automatic mutual aide. If you can't do that than have daytime staffing. I think some departments need to put there ego's in check and remember they are here for the residents, workers, and those that pass through there district.

[mfc2257 464]

The issue in the NY area isn't that departments are having trouble getting out.... The BIG issue is that the power to go next due is placed in the hands of the department that is failing to respond when it should be in the hands of the dispatching agency. Yes all volunteer agencies have issues getting out from time to time. When they do, it shouldn't be up to the department that is failing to render aid to throw in the towel, the dispatcher should be able to alert the next due on a pre determined timeframe.

If the State of NY had any balls they would be actively amending the home rule crap that creates this ego driven situation....

Here is how it should really go:

0100hrs - Tones ...... 60Control to X agency for trouble breathing at fairy land.

0101hrs - No tones .... 60Control repeating that X agency is due for trouble breathing at fairy land

0102 - Same as above

0103 - Same as above

0104 - No tones ... 60Control to X agency awaiting an emt or driver for trouble breathing at fairy land (because one or the other has arrived at the rig and reported such to the dispatching agency)

0105 - Tones .... 60Control to X and Y agency... Y agency is now alerted second due for trouble breathing at fairy land... X agency is first due and awaiting an emt or driver

But instead in Westchester we wait for the people who are already dropping the ball to make the call.

If an agency cannot mount a response in 5 minutes it is time to strike the alarm for next due. NY is one of the only places in America where apparatus is allowed to fail with no empowerment for the dispatcher to remedy the situation.

[Jybehofd 85]

Here is how it should really go:

0100hrs - Tones ...... 60Control to X agency for trouble breathing at fairy land.

0101hrs - No tones .... 60Control repeating that X agency is due for trouble breathing at fairy land

0102 - Same as above

0103 - Same as above

0104 - No tones ... 60Control to X agency awaiting an emt or driver for trouble breathing at fairy land (because one or the other has arrived at the rig and reported such to the dispatching agency)

0105 - Tones .... 60Control to X and Y agency... Y agency is now alerted second due for trouble breathing at fairy land... X agency is first due and awaiting an emt or driver

good idea but it will never happen because of too many politics and too many 911 answering/dispatching sites in westchester at last count i beleave its somewhere around 58... and nyc is 1?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I don't recall seeing a name of a department listed. Reguardless of having a good day or bad day when I call 911 I excpect to see emergency services there in less than 20 mins. If you can not get out then have automatic mutual aide. If you can't do that than have daytime staffing. I think some departments need to put there ego's in check and remember they are here for the residents, workers, and those that pass through there district.

The names and hints that made it easy to figure out the names of the departments were removed. And I agree, all I care is that when someone needs FD or EMS, they get it quickly.

Edited February 18, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[Remember585 815]

The issue in the NY area isn't that departments are having trouble getting out.... The BIG issue is that the power to go next due is placed in the hands of the department that is failing to respond when it should be in the hands of the dispatching agency. Yes all volunteer agencies have issues getting out from time to time. When they do, it shouldn't be up to the department that is failing to render aid to throw in the towel, the dispatcher should be able to alert the next due on a pre determined timeframe.

Ed,

Currently it works like this (for unstaffed agencies):

EMS

1st page

No response, retone after 3 minutes

No response, retoned after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

FIRE

1st page

No response, retone after 5 minutes

No response, retone after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

The "problem" is that once a unit from an agency signs on or calls in by landline, that call is "on them." Departments should have internal SOPs that say "if nobody else calls in after X amount of time, request Mutual Aid."

[NJMedic 96]

There are at least two fundamental requirements for emergency services, get there fast and be competent. If you can't do either one I have no problem calling them on it but you better make sure your own house is in order.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here is how it should really go:

0100hrs - Tones ...... 60Control to X agency for trouble breathing at fairy land.

0101hrs - No tones .... 60Control repeating that X agency is due for trouble breathing at fairy land

0102 - Same as above

0103 - Same as above

0104 - No tones ... 60Control to X agency awaiting an emt or driver for trouble breathing at fairy land (because one or the other has arrived at the rig and reported such to the dispatching agency)

0105 - Tones .... 60Control to X and Y agency... Y agency is now alerted second due for trouble breathing at fairy land... X agency is first due and awaiting an emt or driver

But instead in Westchester we wait for the people who are already dropping the ball to make the call.

If an agency cannot mount a response in 5 minutes it is time to strike the alarm for next due. NY is one of the only places in America where apparatus is allowed to fail with no empowerment for the dispatcher to remedy the situation.

Our regional comms center standard is 4 minutes, then the call is given to a M/A agency. Two tones to have a single unit sign on and begin making the decisions. EMS wise, as this really never happens on the FD side, our fulltime crew is tapped for six services as their primary back-up, so the patient does not have to endure yet more delay due to volunteers needing to get out. In the past each service could arrange it their own way, leading to 2-3 tones, then a M/A VAC with 1-2 more tones, then even a third service.

It does take empowering the dispatch center to make the call. Again in our case, each agency gives the comm center a list in order of who responds first, second, third through fifth due. This is a recent change on the EMS side, while the FD's have had a mutual aid protocol for 40+ years.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

As I said before and I'll say again, some Agencies need to consolidate. I did not see what agencies these were, but I can assume I know one of them. At least in my town there should be a centralized EMS building that is staffed by paid and volunteer crews.

[JJB531 652]

I also disagree with you posting the names of the departments. With that said, all FD's or VAC's have their issues. Of course you want to get out the door real quick for all calls, but sometimes, the personnel are just not available for some reason or another. Having to call another department to cover a call, yes it is not good, but does happen. The important thing is that an FD or VAC shows up for the call. Everyone has their good and bad days.

While I do agree with you that every agency, both paid and volunteer, have their issues, having bad days because of the inability to cover a single call without other circumstances (i.e. the EMS agency is already on a job and gets toned out for a second call) is simply unacceptable.

Having a bad day in this field results in the potential for people to die. If I called 911 in my town, and it took 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive, I would not be pleased if the agency was simply "having a bad day".

The important thing is not that an FD or a VAC shows up for the call. The important thing is that an FD or VAC (or paid agency for that matter) shows up for the call in the TIMELY MANNER. It does no good if the FD shows up for the call and the house that was on fire is nothing more then a smoldering foundation, or that difficulty breather is now in cardiac arrest.

I'm not trying to pick on you, so please don't take it personal. I just want to point out that there's alot more to consider then simply saying "as long as someone shows up well then everything is fine".

[PFDRes47cue 653]

While I do agree with you that every agency, both paid and volunteer, have their issues, having bad days because of the inability to cover a single call without other circumstances (i.e. the EMS agency is already on a job and gets toned out for a second call) is simply unacceptable.

Having a bad day in this field results in the potential for people to die. If I called 911 in my town, and it took 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive, I would not be pleased if the agency was simply "having a bad day".

The important thing is not that an FD or a VAC shows up for the call. The important thing is that an FD or VAC (or paid agency for that matter) shows up for the call in the TIMELY MANNER. It does no good if the FD shows up for the call and the house that was on fire is nothing more then a smoldering foundation, or that difficulty breather is now in cardiac arrest.

I'm not trying to pick on you, so please don't take it personal. I just want to point out that there's alot more to consider then simply saying "as long as someone shows up well then everything is fine".

Absolutely. I agree with you 100%, I just did not include that in my post. On top of time, it is also important (obviously) for the personnel who show up in a TIMELY MANNER to be qualified, competent, and professional. Time is one of the most important things in emergency services.

[JJB531 652]

Absolutely. I agree with you 100%, I just did not include that in my post. On top of time, it is also important (obviously) for the personnel who show up in a TIMELY MANNER to be qualified, competent, and professional. Time is one of the most important things in emergency services.

Very true as well... as NJMedic pointed out, it does no good if a crew shows up to a job in record time and has absolutely no idea what they're doing. We wouldn't accept it if a plumber or electrician came to any of our homes to fix a problem and did a poor job, and as professionals we shouldn't just sit back and accept a poor performance from our co-workers. Should they be burnt at the stake in front of the whole town? No, obviously not. Individuals who are lacking in their skills or performance should be encouraged to seek help and counseling from more experienced providers. Agencies who are lacking in their performance should attempt to seek counseling from and model other agencies who "have their act together".

[Bnechis 3,961]

Having a bad day in this field results in the potential for people to die. If I called 911 in my town, and it took 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive, I would not be pleased if the agency was simply "having a bad day".

There was a line in the original version of Fiddler on the Roof. Where Tevye gives the beggar 1 Koppeck and the beggar says: "only one koppeck, last week you gave me two"

Tevye says: "I had a bad week"

The beggar says: "So you had a bad week, why should I suffer"?

That kind of sums it up.

If you cant get the ambulance out in a timely manor, with properly trained personnel, how can you explain that to the parent whose child is choking and turning blue?

[helicopper 1,050]

The bottom line is there is absolutely no accountability. There are no oversight boards exclusive of the agencies themselves that mandate a certain level of performance and hold agencies accountable to deliver it.

If the standard is patient contact within 8 minutes of the call 95% of the time (illustrative only - not intended to start a debate on response times) and an agency consistently fails to meet that standard, there should be repercussions. Unfortunately, in our world they keep taxing and spending and buying vehicles or building buildings - for what? They're not doing the job.

One town board actually gets reports from the VFD and VAC at each monthly town board meeting but the reports tell nothing of how well the service is being provided of if it is cost-effective. So the town board really has no idea whether or not the services are being well provided.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

The bottom line is there is absolutely no accountability. There are no oversight boards exclusive of the agencies themselves that mandate a certain level of performance and hold agencies accountable to deliver it.

If the standard is patient contact within 8 minutes of the call 95% of the time (illustrative only - not intended to start a debate on response times) and an agency consistently fails to meet that standard, there should be repercussions. Unfortunately, in our world they keep taxing and spending and buying vehicles or building buildings - for what? They're not doing the job.

One town board actually gets reports from the VFD and VAC at each monthly town board meeting but the reports tell nothing of how well the service is being provided of if it is cost-effective. So the town board really has no idea whether or not the services are being well provided.

I couldn't agree more! Someone should be held accountable if they can't fulfill their duties!

[16fire5 693]

Currently it works like this (for unstaffed agencies):

EMS

1st page

No response, retone after 3 minutes

No response, retoned after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

FIRE

1st page

No response, retone after 5 minutes

No response, retone after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

The "problem" is that once a unit from an agency signs on or calls in by landline, that call is "on them." Departments should have internal SOPs that say "if nobody else calls in after X amount of time, request Mutual Aid."

This approach is flawed. It should take the call type into consideration. For EMS failing to crew up in a minute or two should immediatly result in the next due or even better the closest staffed unit being sent for high priority calls. This is done in other areas even in NY state.

For fire a first alarm assignment should have some requirement based on the building type so once again if the home agency is requiring additional dispatches for even the first due the next due should be started.

I'm not saying this would solve the problems Helicopter hits the nail on the head with accountability. But what I describe above could be enacted immediatly by the AHJ i.e. the fire chief empowering the dispatcher and setting benchmarks.

[JohnnyOV 2]

What if, instead of repealing the AHJ clause, you side step it by introducing a clause in the county mutual aid agreement that departments sign. I'll throw an example out there for the fire side...

"Any reported structure fire the host agency will be toned out to respond, along with the MA FASTeam to go on stand-by in their quarters (or respond, what ever floats your boat). Any reported structure fire in an non-hydrant district, the host agency will be toned out, along with a tanker task force of 3 additional MA tankers in addition to the MA FASTeam."

If we could get agencies to agree on simple ideas like this, maybe our level of service and protection to the county wouldn't be as much of a danger/joke as it is in the rest of advanced emergency services community. Some departments, Croton for example, have taken very proactive steps in that any reported structure fire in a non hydrant area, they automatically dispatch a tanker from Yorktown and Millwood as well. Kudos I say for caring more about the homeowners/taxpayers who are your customers, then your own ego of 'This is MY TERRITORY!"

[Remember585 815]

What if, instead of repealing the AHJ clause, you side step it by introducing a clause in the county mutual aid agreement that departments sign. I'll throw an example out there for the fire side...

"Any reported structure fire the host agency will be toned out to respond, along with the MA FASTeam to go on stand-by in their quarters (or respond, what ever floats your boat). Any reported structure fire in an non-hydrant district, the host agency will be toned out, along with a tanker task force of 3 additional MA tankers in addition to the MA FASTeam."

If we could get agencies to agree on simple ideas like this, maybe our level of service and protection to the county wouldn't be as much of a danger/joke as it is in the rest of advanced emergency services community. Some departments, Croton for example, have taken very proactive steps in that any reported structure fire in a non hydrant area, they automatically dispatch a tanker from Yorktown and Millwood as well. Kudos I say for caring more about the homeowners/taxpayers who are your customers, then your own ego of 'This is MY TERRITORY!"

I believe Rockland and maybe even Putnam do this or some variation of this?

There are what, dozens, of "organizations" within our county that meet on a semi-regular basis - what do they discuss? How about doing away with all of these different organizations with different agendas and form one that focuses on the bettering of ourselves and the services we're expected to offer. With ONE voice, not 12 different ones, we would be stronger and would be able to bring our concerns forward where we could get on the same page. Automatic dispatch of FASTs, Tankers, Trucks, etc. could happen countywide.

At least some departments (not many) have their response plans already setup that calls upon Mutual Aid resources that may be needed. I am proud to be a part of one of these departments, where we have automatic aid coming for Tankers in our non-hydrant areas.

Every department can do it on their own, you just need to make formal agreements with your Mutual Aid departments and have them established within the CAD at 60 Control. (Take the time also to set up your greater alarm plans. You may be the Chief and know what you're doing, but what happens when one of your junior officers is in charge?)

[BFD1054 1,552]

I believe Rockland and maybe even Putnam do this or some variation of this?

There are what, dozens, of "organizations" within our county that meet on a semi-regular basis - what do they discuss? How about doing away with all of these different organizations with different agendas and form one that focuses on the bettering of ourselves and the services we're expected to offer. With ONE voice, not 12 different ones, we would be stronger and would be able to bring our concerns forward where we could get on the same page. Automatic dispatch of FASTs, Tankers, Trucks, etc. could happen countywide.

At least some departments (not many) have their response plans already setup that calls upon Mutual Aid resources that may be needed. I am proud to be a part of one of these departments, where we have automatic aid coming for Tankers in our non-hydrant areas.

Every department can do it on their own, you just need to make formal agreements with your Mutual Aid departments and have them established within the CAD at 60 Control. (Take the time also to set up your greater alarm plans. You may be the Chief and know what you're doing, but what happens when one of your junior officers is in charge?)

John, well said. I could never understand why automatic mutual-aid was not used as much as it should. As for Westchester, I know a few of the career and combo depts use it almost daily. Depts such as Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale, Rye, Rye Brook & PCFD rely on it regularly. Personally I think its a good policy. It ensures you have adequate equipment/manpower (especially w/career depts) responding on alarms. It also keeps a good working relationship between Depts.

Here in Orange County, automatic mutual-aid is a common thing. Many FDs have pre-set M/A for everything from fires to MVAs to auto-alarms. Some may have 1 & 1 coming mutual-aid for reported structure fires or even auto-alarms. Some have m/a rescues for certain MVAs. Many have FASTeams dispatched for any reported/possible structure fires. It seems to work very well up here & could work in Westchester.

As for EMS...I won't even go there. That's a system that truly needs addressing County-wide in my opinion.

[DaRock98 76]

Currently it works like this (for unstaffed agencies):

EMS

1st page

No response, retone after 3 minutes

No response, retoned after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

FIRE

1st page

No response, retone after 5 minutes

No response, retone after 3 minutes and begin Mutual Aid

The "problem" is that once a unit from an agency signs on or calls in by landline, that call is "on them." Departments should have internal SOPs that say "if nobody else calls in after X amount of time, request Mutual Aid."

Why is there a 2 min difference between fire and ems from first to second page?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I highly disagree with you posting the department's name for starters. Second what agency are you in let's see how good you guys are. Everyone has issues there is atleast one dept in that same area that's worse than the one you listed, but everyone has issues no one can be as perfect as your agency.

So we all have issues but lets not talk about anyone else or lets not call a spade a spade because it may hurt someone's feelings. That cake must taste really good...bet it comes with a big old cup of kool aid.

Finally...agencies need to get a grip on what is actually happening in their areas. Also as a few on here can attest I often trump the BLS agency and any member that is there to make the decision that I deem necessary for the call and the patient. Which generally includes making the request that 60 control tone out 2 agencies for M/A instead of 1 because it often no longer happens until the 3rd or 4th agency to begin with or a mixed crew from different agencies.

[turk182 37]

John, well said. I could never understand why automatic mutual-aid was not used as much as it should. As for Westchester, I know a few of the career and combo depts use it almost daily. Depts such as Fairview, Greenville, Hartsdale, Rye, Rye Brook & PCFD rely on it regularly. Personally I think its a good policy. It ensures you have adequate equipment/manpower (especially w/career depts) responding on alarms. It also keeps a good working relationship between Depts.

Here in Orange County, automatic mutual-aid is a common thing. Many FDs have pre-set M/A for everything from fires to MVAs to auto-alarms. Some may have 1 & 1 coming mutual-aid for reported structure fires or even auto-alarms. Some have m/a rescues for certain MVAs. Many have FASTeams dispatched for any reported/possible structure fires. It seems to work very well up here & could work in Westchester.

As for EMS...I won't even go there. That's a system that truly needs addressing County-wide in my opinion.

For the sake of clarity Rye, Rye Brook and Port Chester do not have or use a automatic mutual aid plan. I am not sure what the PC and Rye Brook response would be called, Rye Brook FD is under the control of PC, basically another (career)company in the PCFD. Nothing wrong with or against the idea of Auto Aid it just doesn't happen in PC, Rye, Rye Brook as stated.

Edited February 23, 2011 by turk182

[BFD1054 1,552]

For the sake of clarity Rye, Rye Brook and Port Chester do not have or use a automatic mutual aid plan. I am not what the PC and Rye Brook response would be called, Rye Brook FD is under the control of PC, basically another (career)company in the PCFD. Nothing wrong with or against the idea of Auto Aid it just doesn't happen in PC, Rye, Rye Brook as stated.

Turk,

Thank you for the correct info, sorry for any mis-information.

I truly thought it was part of a m/a policy, my bad lol. Thanks again.

[SECTMB 612]

The Fire/EMS community needs the same thing the budget process needs. Leaders willing to address the problems head on, without regard to whose feelings might be hurt. The only feelings that matter in Fire/EMS are those of the persons who dial 911 for assistance. I have been a member of several Fire and separate EMS departments in Westchester. Sometimes we were out in a flash, sometimes not. Though I am no longer active, I monitor 60 Control and hear the dispatches from both the County and the Departments that still self dispatch. Most times there are no issues, other times there is the necessity to re-tone, repeatedly. It happens. But it seems to be happening more often.

The most obvious first step would be consolidation of the dispatching through 60 Control utilizing SOP's and protocols established by 60 Control and the all of Westchester's Departments. I mean, really, each Department has multiple Chiefs. A series of meetings should be able to be attended by one Chief officer of each department to establish the SOP's and protocols.

Almost everything we do has changed over the years. When I started EMS was Red Cross First Aid. Then we became EMT's and now we have Paramedic fly-cars. Our fire apparatus is bigger, better, more reliable, better equipeed, TL's, CAFS, hydraulic tools, PPE, SCBA all more advanced. But aside from continued advances in our alerting system, House Sirens and Horns to "Plectrons" to pagers, we haven't adjusted for the biggest change in our Departments, the personnel. Despite the addition of women, which probably saved volunteer EMS, we still have not accepted that the increase in call volumes coupled with the requirements of training and the demands of work and family have made it more and more difficult for volunteers to maintain the level of activity that their Departments require. Consequently, more instances of re-peat tones.

Leadership addresses and solves issues.

[jrf344 5]

Until well thought out education based policy, procedure and common sense decisions are required by departments or districts instead of money spending popularity based boys with toys you can't tell me what to do attitude. It will be hard to do the right thing. And stepping backwards will continue.

[WCCEMS 2]

I believe that the Medical Advisory Committee for the Regional Council has finally taken steps to mandate that any EMS agency must be "in the ambulance" responding within three (3) minutes of a 911 call being received. I think the implementation date has been set, and that if an agency cannot meet this mandate the take themselves out of service for that day. More info is available from the regional council.

With the Fitch & Associates study on EMS findings, positive changes should be forthcoming.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I believe that the Medical Advisory Committee for the Regional Council has finally taken steps to mandate that any EMS agency must be "in the ambulance" responding within three (3) minutes of a 911 call being received. I think the implementation date has been set, and that if an agency cannot meet this mandate the take themselves out of service for that day. More info is available from the regional council.

With the Fitch & Associates study on EMS findings, positive changes should be forthcoming.

What region will this be pertaining to? All of Westchester I hope?

[dadbo46 50]

I believe that the Medical Advisory Committee for the Regional Council has finally taken steps to mandate that any EMS agency must be "in the ambulance" responding within three (3) minutes of a 911 call being received. I think the implementation date has been set, and that if an agency cannot meet this mandate the take themselves out of service for that day. More info is available from the regional council.

With the Fitch & Associates study on EMS findings, positive changes should be forthcoming.

With all due respect to the good intentions of the Regional EMS Council, a 3 three minute response time for volunteer agencies is just not reasonable.