New Rochelle 2/14/2011 Church Fire Discussion

[KelliPVAC 32]

NO I am sure he meant CO monitoring of the members...every one wants to get there paws on a peice of the job...

While I can see the merits of rehab...we HAVE to draw a line...

No wonder firefighter savoid it at all costs....onceyou get there, you are stripped of you pack,coat, etc...people use equipment they usually dont know how to use, and then you are STUCK there because "they say so"...even though they read your blood pressure wrong! There is a reason they call it EMS Prison.

Save the money for water and Gatorade...hand me one while I change my bottle, then get out of the way and let the firemen DO THEIR JOBS.

I rarely comment on this site anymore, but this post I felt I should. And I do not mean to get off the topic of the fire. It sounds and looks like a great job was done by all. PVAC has a rehab unit. We have all needed item for a fire standby. Our personnel are trained on how to use our equipment. We know how to take blood pressures. Any fire we have gone too, we have been on the same page with the Chief. Firefighters who have been inside come over to the rehab unit. They are given water and vitals are taken. If we as EMTs feel that Firefighter needs to sit out a little longer for rest, that’s what we do. It is far from an EMS Prison. We have never had a complaint from an FD we worked with. If anyone is interested in seeing our rehab, please PM and we can set something up. We are all about helping Firefighters, not working against them.

Again great job, and stay safe!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

NO I am sure he meant CO monitoring of the members...every one wants to get there paws on a peice of the job...

While I can see the merits of rehab...we HAVE to draw a line...

No wonder firefighter savoid it at all costs....onceyou get there, you are stripped of you pack,coat, etc...people use equipment they usually dont know how to use, and then you are STUCK there because "they say so"...even though they read your blood pressure wrong! There is a reason they call it EMS Prison.

Save the money for water and Gatorade...hand me one while I change my bottle, then get out of the way and let the firemen DO THEIR JOBS.

I rarely comment on this site anymore, but this post I felt I should. And I do not mean to get off the topic of the fire. It sounds and looks like a great job was done by all. PVAC has a rehab unit. We have all needed item for a fire standby. Our personnel are trained on how to use our equipment. We know how to take blood pressures. Any fire we have gone too, we have been on the same page with the Chief. Firefighters who have been inside come over to the rehab unit. They are given water and vitals are taken. If we as EMTs feel that Firefighter needs to sit out a little longer for rest, that's what we do. It is far from an EMS Prison. We have never had a complaint from an FD we worked with. If anyone is interested in seeing our rehab, please PM and we can set something up. We are all about helping Firefighters, not working against them.

Again great job, and stay safe!

I am a firefighter/EMT and don't see rehab as an "EMS Prison." I see it as something that can and should be taken advantage of by firefighter. I do not like people getting in the way of my job as a firefighter but I also know that while I'm on my 5th bottle there are people outside who have only gone through 1 or maybe 2. If I can go over to "EMS Prison" for a few minutes to ensure that my blood pressure is at a good level, and let someone else get a little work, I will. I'm not saying that because I am part of an agency that has a rehab unit. I am saying that because it is the safest choice for me. With the amount of people standing around at 99.9% of fire incidents, a few people at a time going to rehab for say 10 minutes, is FAR from getting in the way of the firefighters and preventing them from doing their job. Who know maybe the 10 minutes spent in "EMS Prison," will catch something, get your levels back to a safe range, and save your life. allowing you to continue your job as a firefighter at the next alarm. If you die 2 hours after the alarm, does that not get in the way of your job as a firefighter? I would think so considering the fact that you're dead. In the end of the day, I do not think I have ever kept someone in "EMS Prison" for more than 10 minutes max...and all of the people I have rehabbed, have been thankful for the services.

Doing everything possible to avoid "EMS Prison" sounds like an ego problem in which your ego is getting in the way of your smart thinking and safety.

Does your family want to hear from THE CHIEF, "I'm sorry to say that due to your spouses decision to be inside on pack #9 and not get checked out in "EMS Prison", while 20 other firefighters stood outside waiting for the chance to use bottle #1, your husband/wife suffered a massive heart attack after the job and has passed away."

Or would they prefer to hear, FROM YOU, "The fire was great today, I got to do a lot of work, then took a breather and got checked by EMS to make sure that I could go back and continue my hard work."

In the end, it is up to the firefighter to make his/her own decisions in regard to his/her safety. You just have to hope that ego does not get in the way of smart thinking. A Firefighter is only as good as his team and the people who trust in him. They are trusting you to stay safe and show up for the next shift.

If people want the rehab discussion to continue, a thread was started a while back that turned into a general rehab discussion... Rehab Thread

Back to discussing the GREAt job done by NRFD and all the departments that worked the massive fire...

Edited February 16, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[WCFCX613 6]

Other Than Public Safety Displays And Parades What Is The Purpose Of The Westchester County DES Field Communication Unit ? A LOT Of Federal Funds Were Spent On This Purchase And I NEVER See It Respond To Multi-Alarm Fires Or Conflagrations In The County !!!

[Guest NickR]

Wow! With 5 alarms can I assume that the church is gone?

Actually not quite, The base is still there but the top is burnt off

[PEMO3 523]

Other Than Public Safety Displays And Parades What Is The Purpose Of The Westchester County DES Field Communication Unit ? A LOT Of Federal Funds Were Spent On This Purchase And I NEVER See It Respond To Multi-Alarm Fires Or Conflagrations In The County !!!

That was the reason for my original post asking if WCDES's Field Comm/Mobile Command Unit was requested, dispatched or used on the job. While it was met with responses that equaled "we had a coffee maker already" or "D&D was open" (not pointing fingers, humor is a great thing), my curiosity was that with so many discussions always pointing toward proper ICS and scene safety why was a "tool" not used. Was it overlooked? Was it felt to be a hindrance? Was 60 Control not able to staff and respond? or Was it my sandbox, my tools, I give the orders? Let me finish by saying I am not looking for fights or hurt feelings and have absolutely no stake in the million dollar toy that collects more dust than mileage, I am just interested in the thought process that would not consider a Mobile Command/Field Comm unit an asset on such a large operation. Lets face it the IC did a great job regardless.

[Goose 188]

Do they even have enough people to staff the field com truck at that hour?

[WCFCX613 6]

' Let me finish by saying I am not looking for fights or hurt feelings and have absolutely no stake in the million dollar toy that collects more dust than mileage, I am just interested in the thought process that would not consider a Mobile Command/Field Comm unit an asset on such a large operation. Lets face it the IC did a great job regardless. '

YES, You Are 100% Correct, The IC Did A GREAT Job At This Multi-Alarm Fire. I Just Question The Wisdom Of Spending So Many $$$$ On This Vehicle And NOT Utilizing It At Major Fires, Disasters, Etc. I Worked For Westchester County DES In It's Fledgling Days With Austere Budgets And It Seems Like BIG Amounts Of Federal Funds And Taxpayer Dollars Were Spent On Purchasing Many Vehicles

( Other Than New Training Engine & Ladder ) That Are NOT Utilized For Maximum Effect. I Serve On An Advisory Board In A New Jersey County That ALSO Spends Lots Of Money On Specialized Vehicles And Equipment But Uses Same To Maximum Efficiency Without Over Duplication !!!!!! I.E. The County Field Comm. Unit Is Staffed By Members Of The Sheriff's Department And Responds To POLICE/FIRE/EMS Incidents 24/7 !!!!!! FYI The County Is Also Building A 35 Million Dollar Dispatch Center At Our Fire Academy That Will Be State Of The Art And Have The Capability Of Dispatching Every POLICE/FIRE/EMS Agency In The County !!!!!! Why Does Westchester Maintain Two Different Dispatch Centers For County Fire And County Police ????

[PEMO3 523]

While we have headed in this direction, I noticed the other day that WCDES has 2 trailers that appeared on a drive by to be apx 14-20 feet long with roof mounted A/C units lettered as "SCENE SUPPORT UNITS". Does anyone have information on what these trailer contain if anything and their intended purpose?

[JohnnyOV 2]

Why Does Westchester Maintain Two Different Dispatch Centers For County Fire And County Police ????

My turf and you can't touch it....

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

While we have headed in this direction, I noticed the other day that WCDES has 2 trailers that appeared on a drive by to be apx 14-20 feet long with roof mounted A/C units lettered as "SCENE SUPPORT UNITS". Does anyone have information on what these trailer contain if anything and their intended purpose?

They have been there for at least 6 months. never seen them move, never seen anyone go near them, in them or use them. I have asked this question to myself and the staff there many times and I have not received an answer at all.

[WCFCX613 6]

YES, You Are 100% Correct, The IC Did A GREAT Job At This Multi-Alarm Fire. I Just Question The Wisdom Of Spending So Many $$$$ On This Vehicle And NOT Utilizing It At Major Fires, Disasters, Etc. I Worked For Westchester County DES In It's Fledgling Days With Austere Budgets And It Seems Like BIG Amounts Of Federal Funds And Taxpayer Dollars Were Spent On Purchasing Many Vehicles

( Other Than New Training Engine & Ladder ) That Are NOT Utilized For Maximum Effect. I Serve On An Advisory Board In A New Jersey County That ALSO Spends Lots Of Money On Specialized Vehicles And Equipment But Uses Same To Maximum Efficiency Without Over Duplication !!!!!! I.E. The County Field Comm. Unit Is Staffed By Members Of The Sheriff's Department And Responds To POLICE/FIRE/EMS Incidents 24/7 !!!!!! FYI The County Is Also Building A 35 Million Dollar Dispatch Center At Our Fire Academy That Will Be State Of The Art And Have The Capability Of Dispatching Every POLICE/FIRE/EMS Agency In The County !!!!!! Why Does Westchester Maintain Two Different Dispatch Centers For County Fire And County Police ????

[WCFCX613 6]

Quote On Westchester County DES Site ' The Mobile Field Communications Unit is used on a regular basis to support communication needs during large fires, mass gatherings and during training exercises '

[Bnechis 3,961]

I do not like people getting in the way of my job as a firefighter but I also know that while I'm on my 5th bottle there are people outside who have only gone through 1 or maybe 2. If I can go over to "EMS Prison" for a few minutes to ensure that my blood pressure is at a good level, and let someone else get a little work, I will......I am saying that because it is the safest choice for me.

If you are on your 5th Bottle something is major wrong. After that much bottled air (read at one incident) you run the risk of lung issues And staying in Rehab for 10 minutes is not going to resolve a BP issue. And this is the safest choice?

With the amount of people standing around at 99.9% of fire incidents, a few people at a time going to rehab for say 10 minutes, is FAR from getting in the way of the firefighters and preventing them from doing their job.

We dont pay for our firefighters to stand around at 99.9% of our fires. Maybe you need to take a better look at the people you are calling firefighters.

Who know maybe the 10 minutes spent in "EMS Prison," will catch something, get your levels back to a safe range, and save your life. allowing you to continue your job as a firefighter at the next alarm.

If your levels are that off, 10 minutes will not help. YEs it may catch something, but the members also need to know their bodies and at what point they need rehab. It is not always that "automatic".

In the end, it is up to the firefighter to make his/her own decisions in regard to his/her safety.

THats not what you have been saying prior to this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

That was the reason for my original post asking if WCDES's Field Comm/Mobile Command Unit was requested, dispatched or used on the job..... my curiosity was that with so many discussions always pointing toward proper ICS and scene safety why was a "tool" not used. Was it overlooked? Was it felt to be a hindrance?

It was simply not needed.

Was 60 Control not able to staff and respond? or Was it my sandbox, my tools, I give the orders?

60 had a number of personnel on-scene coordinating and were able to handle things without it. If we needed it we know they will bring it.

[billfitz 109]

They have been there for at least 6 months. never seen them move, never seen anyone go near them, in them or use them. I have asked this question to myself and the staff there many times and I have not received an answer at all.

how dare you question the fact that "the emperor has no clothes" you should be admonished for asking such an honest question - what are those trailers for? How dare You! - I asked the same question several months ago and was meet with silence! "I am mad as hell and not going to take it any more!" (I think that was a movie quote) - lol - I don't want to hijack the thread - Great job NRFD

Edited February 17, 2011 by billfitz

[PFDRes47cue 653]

We dont pay for our firefighters to stand around at 99.9% of our fires. Maybe you need to take a better look at the people you are calling firefighters.

THats not what you have been saying prior to this.

I was not speaking about NRFD nor do I recall pointing a finger at NRFD. It was a general comment. With all comments, there are always exceptions. And I don't recall saying that it is up to someone else to make decisions for firefighters in terms of there health. If I did for some reason I don't know why I would have said it since obviously a firefighters health and decisions related to it in terms of getting checked out are up to the firefighter.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

When the reserve engines are called, how do these go about getting manned? Are certain houses assigned to certain reserve rigs? What is the time frame it takes to call back firefighters and get the reserve rigs on scene?

[Bnechis 3,961]

When the reserve engines are called, how do these go about getting manned? Are certain houses assigned to certain reserve rigs? What is the time frame it takes to call back firefighters and get the reserve rigs on scene?

Manned with a call back. We have officers who can initiate a call back from home or work. They basicly use I/Page, but in reality when there is a worker its common for a few members to show up at the house. We have all callback members go to there house to get there gear and then report to Station #1 for accountability (the exception is 1-2 guides for Sta #3 mutual aid). Time is usually 10-20 minutes till inservice, then 3-4 to get to the scene.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Manned with a call back. We have officers who can initiate a call back from home or work. They basicly use I/Page, but in reality when there is a worker its common for a few members to show up at the house. We have all callback members go to there house to get there gear and then report to Station #1 for accountability (the exception is 1-2 guides for Sta #3 mutual aid). Time is usually 10-20 minutes till inservice, then 3-4 to get to the scene.

Thanks for the info.

[Dusie 8]

This is a curiosity question from a newbie (ok, naive question?)... For incidents like this, how much fuel do the rigs carry and how long can they operate for? I see the EFD rigs refueling often while at TYA fields so keeping tanks topped is obviously important. Is it feasible given the fire scene to re-fuel (e.g., the guys who re-fuel construction equipment at a job site to re-fuel at a fire scene)?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

This is a curiosity question from a newbie (ok, naive question?)... For incidents like this, how much fuel do the rigs carry and how long can they operate for? I see the EFD rigs refueling often while at TYA fields so keeping tanks topped is obviously important. Is it feasible given the fire scene to re-fuel (e.g., the guys who re-fuel construction equipment at a job site to re-fuel at a fire scene)?

I have operated at several "extended" calls. Usually fuel is not an issue. Trucks should always be topped off for this reason.

With that said, I have seen trucks needing to be refueled while operating at a scene. Sometimes, someone comes in and does this other times, the truck leaves the scene if another is around to take over its role.

On one occasion, on scene fueling was needed for a truck that had a fuel leak that was discovered on scene. Not much you can do but stop the leak and then refuel ASAP.

[JM15 386]

Fuel can be an issue at long operations and it's not easy to take some apparatus that is being used on scene for fuel.. that wouldn't make much sense

Most local or state highway departments have capabilities that i'm sure you could request. Might be a good idea to find out whats available in your area besides a member shuttling a utility full of diesel cans lol

[Tanker 10eng 140]

a question to the NRFD guys and anyone with knowledge of this structure.. having worked on plenty of churches, this one in particular, was it a full Cathedral ceiling, or did it have a hanging wood structured ceiling? Then did it have any fire suppression systems ? it always shocks me when you see a heavy timber roof structure and NO means of trying to put it out from within ( either a dry or wet pipe system )... one would think the owners would invest in something to protect the history of their church..

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is a curiosity question from a newbie (ok, naive question?)... For incidents like this, how much fuel do the rigs carry and how long can they operate for? I see the EFD rigs refueling often while at TYA fields so keeping tanks topped is obviously important. Is it feasible given the fire scene to re-fuel (e.g., the guys who re-fuel construction equipment at a job site to re-fuel at a fire scene)?

Most between 30 and 50 gallons. We require the fill up at 3/4 tamk. All of our engines were refilled on scene at least 1x. Dept. Mechanic has a tank & pump in his vehicle. Great Question.

[Bnechis 3,961]

a question to the NRFD guys and anyone with knowledge of this structure.. having worked on plenty of churches, this one in particular, was it a full Cathedral ceiling, or did it have a hanging wood structured ceiling? Then did it have any fire suppression systems ? it always shocks me when you see a heavy timber roof structure and NO means of trying to put it out from within ( either a dry or wet pipe system )... one would think the owners would invest in something to protect the history of their church..

I cant answer the 1st other than it was very tall inside. No suppression system, they rarely do, particularly one that 100 years old. Most houses of worship have trouble staying afloat, not much money left for protection.

[Remember585 815]

Most fire apparatus are outfitted with 50-75 gallon fuel tanks, if they're full or close to full you should be able to manage most incidents without running out of fuel.

[R1SmokeEater 359]

Ed Gray's vids up.............

Edited February 20, 2011 by R1SmokeEater

[R1SmokeEater 359]

[R1SmokeEater 359]

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Very good videos. Thanks for posting them Jamie!