Training requirements & how do you mandate them

[JohnnyOV 2]

Apparently Dinosaur and Johnny you didn't read the entire portion of the post you quoted. Here let me give you a remider:

Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw.

We have never found the need to enforce requirements, even though the requirements exist as do the the enforcement policies if they're needed. This because our membership not only values our training as a part of our traditional professional departmental attitude towards our duty, but expect our Officer's and Training Division to maintain it's quality for their benefit.

The point is unlike a paid department in which the paycheck can exert a considerable amount leverage in making people do what they have to do, volunteer organizations do not generally hold that level of power. Ultimately volunteers do what they want to, including leave if they don't like the standards, and lose very little because they can, it is as simple as that. For us we haven't as of yet had to force people to do anything, there has been no need. Our members fully understand from day one what is expected and what is excepted and follow through with what is required not because they have to but because they want to, which is a credit to ther commitment and dedication. Threats and force only go so far in Vollyland and that is simply reality. Better to have 10 members that want to do what's required and do it well because they want to, than have 100 that do so only out of fear and with little ownership.

Cogs

On a calmer attitude. Why wouldn't you want to hold yourself to the same training standards as your career counterparts? Or even to a higher standard then that? Just because the laws state 10 hours OSHA training this and 30 hours that doesn't mean its the right thing to do. OSHA itself is the BARE minimum regulations to follow for any organization. Most companies (large scale) try and exceed all aspects of the OSHA laws. Why? because they can apply for VPP (voluntary protection program) that basically tells OSHA, look, we don't need to audit these guys as much because we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

All I'm trying to say is I personally don't like being looked down upon for lack of anything, and I try and help others achieve what levels they are completely capable of achieving, whether they know it or not. I really feel that even though your State Law says one thing, there is nothing wrong with following that but being an over achiever, and going above and beyond what the state says.

[FFPCogs 863]

On a calmer attitude. Why wouldn't you want to hold yourself to the same training standards as your career counterparts? Or even to a higher standard then that? Just because the laws state 10 hours OSHA training this and 30 hours that doesn't mean its the right thing to do. OSHA itself is the BARE minimum regulations to follow for any organization. Most companies (large scale) try and exceed all aspects of the OSHA laws. Why? because they can apply for VPP (voluntary protection program) that basically tells OSHA, look, we don't need to audit these guys as much because we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

All I'm trying to say is I personally don't like being looked down upon for lack of anything, and I try and help others achieve what levels they are completely capable of achieving, whether they know it or not. I really feel that even though your State Law says one thing, there is nothing wrong with following that but being an over achiever, and going above and beyond what the state says.

Nor do I want to be looked down upon or will I be. On page after page in thread after thread I say equal standards for both sectors should be required as a matter of course. Unfortunately that view, which is not only what I too want but quite frankly what I strongly believe to be the right policy, is not shared by all. For me personally and my dept (which is where my views on this were largely shaped) the belief is we are firefighters and professional in our approach to performing the duties that responsibility entails, therefore our training should reflect this and does far in excess of our State's minimums. What other VFDs (or any FD really) does we have very little control over.

Cogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

For devil's advocite sake, what if the junior members are riding along on the apparatus, but not taking part in the emergency, just merely observing? They are listed on our roster and held to their own training standards for junior members before they can ride on the apparatus. Will they still need to take HMFRO before they can ride?

I think the main factor would be are they listed on your workers comp or other insurance policy. If they are then yes.

[Bnechis 3,961]

After looking up the laws, I found the 2 exceptions

After reading both exceptions however, you still need at minimum awareness training...

The exceptions you posted are under paragrap "P" which only affects the below listed workers not emergency services which is under paragraph "Q"

1910.120(p)Certain Operations Conducted Under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976 (RCRA). Employers conducting operations at treatment, storage and disposal (TSD) facilities specified in paragraph (a)(1)(iv) of this section shall provide and implement the programs specified in this paragraph. See the "Notes and Exceptions" to paragraph (a)(2)(iii) of this section for employers not covered.

I'm also curious though, since NYS is a PESH state for government employees, does PESH have laws regarding this?

NYS Dept of Labor (DOL) is required under Federal DOL OSHA to have equal or stricter standards than the federal OSHA standard or they lose federal funding. If you request a standard from PESH they send you a photo copy of the OSHA Document with a NYS cover on it. There are a few regulation where PESH is stricter, but not many (Bailout rope is the only one I can think of that effects the FD).

[firemoose827 324]

As a new Captain my long term goal for this year is to increase the training standards of our department and maybe even get the word out to our fire coordinators and instructors to make the training requirements mandatory. Im tired of hearing fellow volunteers using the same excuse over and over..."Im only a volunteer with a family and FT Job responsibilities." Well than you need to evaluate your situation and make changes; either leave the department or find the time to train because fire kills us just as fast and the people we serve deserve all the same levels of protection that our career brothers and sisters provide. They deserve more than a truck full of untrained well intentioned people with big hearts...they need the same people but with the right training.

I have a wife and young daughter, four years old, and they both support me. They know that if I dont have the training I could get hurt or even worse...makes sense, doesnt it?? They want me to come home than I have to know what Im doing.

I work, and go to school FT yet still make it to drills and classes.

My only question, to all of you with experience in this matter, is how do I get the point across without being too aggressive and making them all burry their heads in the sand? Any good advice for an unseasoned officer to carry out my goal? Any advice would be appreciated and thanks for the information on the training requirements, good stuff.

Stay Safe everyone.

[Monty 35]

>> Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO? <<

Great question and Steve gave the correct answer for the junior firefighter and exterior firefighter. OSHA & PESH (NYS OSHA) have determined that all Firefighters require HMFRO before being allowed to respond, but EMS only members are only required to have hazmat awareness level. The ride along is not an "employee" so no training is required, however the dept is also responsible to ensure his/her safety.

Some have argued that they would not respond to "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" so they do not need the training. But every call has a releases or potential releases; MVA's, Fire, CO calls, odor's, peds struck (biological), flooded basement, etc.

Remember its not just "Hazmat" Calls. The law says ALL CALLS

1910.120(q)(6)Training.

Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (1986), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

YES all firefighters would include exterior.

Is this cited anywhere? In these responses I previously found on the OSHA site it contradicts that and explicitly says awareness is the minimum level for firefighters http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=27409 (Nov 2008)

As this language suggests, it is not the case that all firefighters are required to be trained to the first responder operations level. Firefighters who are not expected to respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances and who would take no action beyond notifying appropriate authorities of a hazardous substance release need only be trained to the first responder awareness level. See 29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(i).

However, anyone responding to a reported hazmat incident needs to at least be Hazmat operatins level http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24753:

If a fire department receives an emergency call reporting a suspected release of a hazardous substance, this would be considered sufficient information to warrant an emergency response. The fire department should not knowingly dispatch an "Awareness Level" fire fighter to respond to a hazardous substance emergency response

Fire fighters trained at the first responder awareness level are trained to identify the release of a hazardous substance and to notify the proper authorities of the release without approaching the point of release

and http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=21788, states:

SUMMARY REQUIREMENTS FOR RESPONSE TO IDLH OR POTENTIAL IDLH ATMOSPHERES USING SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS

The HAZWOPER standard requires the use of the buddy system with standby personnel for emergency response operations involving the release of hazardous substance(s) producing IDLH conditions for employees responding. The regulation specifies a minimum of four personnel, two as a team in the buddy system and two standby back-up personnel, to conduct operations in hazardous areas safely.

The use of SCBAs in IDLH atmospheres for circumstances not covered by HAZWOPER is covered by the Respiratory Protection standard which requires two standby personnel to be present outside the IDLH hazard area. Failure to have two standby persons for a known, existing IDLH, e.g., an interior structural fire, would be a violation of 1910.134(e)(3)(ii).

[PFDRes47cue 653]

"Exterior" members is just another way of catering to people who won't get trained to do the full job. How long do you let a member stay exterior?

Often times, "exterior" members are older members who have done the training who have fought the fires, who have put in the time, but now are older but still want to help out and be an active member.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is this cited anywhere? In these responses I previously found on the OSHA site it contradicts that and explicitly says awareness is the minimum level for firefighters

Quote: "As this language suggests, it is not the case that all firefighters are required to be trained to the first responder operations level. Firefighters who are not expected to respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances and who would take no action beyond notifying appropriate authorities of a hazardous substance release need only be trained to the first responder awareness level. See 29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(i)."

You left out "As you may be aware, Federal OSHA does not generally cover volunteer firefighters." They also do not cover municipal firefighters. The 26 OSHA "Plan" States cover municipals (i.e. PESH).

Unfortinatly PESH's website does not have great documentation of its interpritations. Prior to the 1986 29CFR1910.120 Hazmat ruling. NYS OFPC provided hazmat I and II. PESH determined that HM-I ended up being equal to HM Awarness and a little bit of Ops. and HM-II was almost Technician. But their was no Ops. level.

In 1986 Nassau County did a tremendous job of Training all its ff's to the awareness level. An Administratve Law Judge for DOL ruled that (based on what I wrote below) Operations was the minimum level in NYS for firefighters. I am looking for the rulling (I have it buried somewhare in my HM paperwork. When I find it I'll attach it).

However, anyone responding to a reported hazmat incident needs to at least be Hazmat operatins level

Quote: "If a fire department receives an emergency call reporting a suspected release of a hazardous substance, this would be considered sufficient information to warrant an emergency response. The fire department should not knowingly dispatch an "Awareness Level" fire fighter to respond to a hazardous substance emergency response"

Respond to an MVA......

Respond to an unknown odor.....

Respond to a gas leak.......

Respond to a CO detector activation.....

Respond to a reported fire.......

Respond to an injured person

Which of the above does not have a suspected "hazardous substance"?

Quote: "Fire fighters trained at the first responder awareness level are trained to identify the release of a hazardous substance and to notify the proper authorities of the release without approaching the point of release"

The issue is this qute is based on the following standard section:

1910.120(q)(6)(i) First responder awareness level.

First responders at the awareness level are individuals who are likely to witness or discover a hazardous substance release and who have been trained to initiate an emergency response sequence by notifying the proper authorities of the release. They would take no further action beyond notifying the authorities of the release.

Firefighters are expected to use absorbant or dirt to contain spills, use fans or natural ventilation and fog streams. That clearly puts them under Operations:

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)First responder operations level.

First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release. They are trained to respond in a defensive fashion without actually trying to stop the release. Their function is to contain the release from a safe distance, keep it from spreading, and prevent exposures.

[CFD320 35]

I have been thinking of starting this discussion for the past couple of weeks.

How does your Department MANDATE that it's members are trained to a certain level of professionalism?

The level to which an individual is trained to has absolutely nothing to do with his/her level of professionalism.

[SteveOFD 176]

How does your Department MANDATE that it's members are trained to a certain level of professionalism?

Is this mandate in writing, and if so is every member provided a copy of the Departments' policy?

For Volunteer FD's is this policy in Department/Company By-Laws, SOP/SOG, or other?

For Career FD's is this policy in the Union Contract, SOP/SOG, or other?

What level of training must members maintain after initial training?

Good response to all who have posted. Thank you.

I waited a while to comment on the responses. While all have provided pertinent information on training requirements, few have posted the "how" of how the requirements are enforced, which is what I really wanted to find out.

FFCogs answered how his FD enforces training requirements, they are in their By-Laws, this is what what I was looking for. bvfdjc316 was close, providing the specifics of the requirements, but not stating how they are enforced.

What I am getting at is, are the initial and refresher training requirements in writing, and if so are they By-Laws, SOP/SOG, Union Contract, or something else?

Some have posted that the Career Firefighter requirements are NY State Law. Does this mean that if you violate a State Law (not meeting the training requirements, or not wearing a seatbelt (yeah,yeah, I know emergency vehicles are exempt in NYS)) you could be terminated? What are the consequences if a Career FF does not meet the annual training requirements, and if there are consequences, what is the enforcing document/policy etc?

On the Volunteer side, what specific document, if any, mandates a Firefighter in the Department must meet a specific level of training, (initially AND refresher) or is it just "well, the Chief four years ago (who is no longer Chief) said we have to do this and that's how we have done it since.

What I am asking about, is how are the requirements enforced. Keep up the responses.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Some have posted that the Career Firefighter requirements are NY State Law. Does this mean that if you violate a State Law (not meeting the training requirements, or not wearing a seatbelt (yeah,yeah, I know emergency vehicles are exempt in NYS)) you could be terminated? What are the consequences if a Career FF does not meet the annual training requirements, and if there are consequences, what is the enforcing document/policy etc?

It is the departments responsibility under the law to provide the training and submit the documentation to NYS.

[Monty 35]

Thanks, I know that somewhere it says something similar to States have to set standards that match or exceed OSHA - so NY can certainly set higher standards than the feds - although if they're not bothering to enforce them until the fact you could ask why bother. Bit like shutting the stable door once the horse has bolted.

And I agree the standard talks about suspected release of a hazardous substance. One part of the definition (from http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=22298) Any biological agent and other disease-causing agent which after release into the environment and upon exposure, ingestion, inhalation, or assimilation into any person...will or may reasonably be anticipated to cause death, disease, behavioral abnormalities, cancer, genetic mutation, physiological malfunctions...or physiological deformations in such persons or their offspring I'm not sure that some of those cases (eg injured person) cover that reasonable anticipation. Sure some cases could, but a very small percentage - and it does make sense to take reasonable and prudent precautions for those small cases (ie proper PPE, barrier protection etc) - but I'm not sure it meets the strict definition. Guess that would be for a jury or judge to decide

A good lawyer could probably argue both sides on other examples too.

Quote: "As this language suggests, it is not the case that all firefighters are required to be trained to the first responder operations level. Firefighters who are not expected to respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances and who would take no action beyond notifying appropriate authorities of a hazardous substance release need only be trained to the first responder awareness level. See 29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(i)."

You left out "As you may be aware, Federal OSHA does not generally cover volunteer firefighters." They also do not cover municipal firefighters. The 26 OSHA "Plan" States cover municipals (i.e. PESH).

Unfortinatly PESH's website does not have great documentation of its interpritations. Prior to the 1986 29CFR1910.120 Hazmat ruling. NYS OFPC provided hazmat I and II. PESH determined that HM-I ended up being equal to HM Awarness and a little bit of Ops. and HM-II was almost Technician. But their was no Ops. level.

In 1986 Nassau County did a tremendous job of Training all its ff's to the awareness level. An Administratve Law Judge for DOL ruled that (based on what I wrote below) Operations was the minimum level in NYS for firefighters. I am looking for the rulling (I have it buried somewhare in my HM paperwork. When I find it I'll attach it).

Quote: "If a fire department receives an emergency call reporting a suspected release of a hazardous substance, this would be considered sufficient information to warrant an emergency response. The fire department should not knowingly dispatch an "Awareness Level" fire fighter to respond to a hazardous substance emergency response"

Respond to an MVA......

Respond to an unknown odor.....

Respond to a gas leak.......

Respond to a CO detector activation.....

Respond to a reported fire.......

Respond to an injured person

Which of the above does not have a suspected "hazardous substance"?

Quote: "Fire fighters trained at the first responder awareness level are trained to identify the release of a hazardous substance and to notify the proper authorities of the release without approaching the point of release"

The issue is this qute is based on the following standard section:

1910.120(q)(6)(i) First responder awareness level.

First responders at the awareness level are individuals who are likely to witness or discover a hazardous substance release and who have been trained to initiate an emergency response sequence by notifying the proper authorities of the release. They would take no further action beyond notifying the authorities of the release.

Firefighters are expected to use absorbant or dirt to contain spills, use fans or natural ventilation and fog streams. That clearly puts them under Operations:

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)First responder operations level.

First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release. They are trained to respond in a defensive fashion without actually trying to stop the release. Their function is to contain the release from a safe distance, keep it from spreading, and prevent exposures.

[Monty 35]

Good response to all who have posted. Thank you.

I waited a while to comment on the responses. While all have provided pertinent information on training requirements, few have posted the "how" of how the requirements are enforced, which is what I really wanted to find out.

FFCogs answered how his FD enforces training requirements, they are in their By-Laws, this is what what I was looking for. bvfdjc316 was close, providing the specifics of the requirements, but not stating how they are enforced.

What I am getting at is, are the initial and refresher training requirements in writing, and if so are they By-Laws, SOP/SOG, Union Contract, or something else?

Some have posted that the Career Firefighter requirements are NY State Law. Does this mean that if you violate a State Law (not meeting the training requirements, or not wearing a seatbelt (yeah,yeah, I know emergency vehicles are exempt in NYS)) you could be terminated? What are the consequences if a Career FF does not meet the annual training requirements, and if there are consequences, what is the enforcing document/policy etc?

On the Volunteer side, what specific document, if any, mandates a Firefighter in the Department must meet a specific level of training, (initially AND refresher) or is it just "well, the Chief four years ago (who is no longer Chief) said we have to do this and that's how we have done it since.

What I am asking about, is how are the requirements enforced. Keep up the responses.

In my old department upstate it was basically in the bylaws of the department (which was a non-profit contracted by the town for a fire protection district). The bylaws gave the Chief his power and the bylaws stated the requirements for active membership. Around the mid 90's the concept of an online / offline active firefighter was established. If you didn't have a current physical examination, didn't have annual OSHA training, didn't have bloodborne pathogens then you were offline and couldn't respond until you got your training and were placed online again. If at the end of the term and you didn't meet your requirements (drills, fires etc) you were taken off the active rolls (unless you were a life member with >20 years).

This way you could still have the prestige of being life active, being recognised for having put in 20+ years of service but no longer able to respond if not appropriately trained as you were now 'off-line'.

[firemoose827 324]

Good response to all who have posted. Thank you.

I waited a while to comment on the responses. While all have provided pertinent information on training requirements, few have posted the "how" of how the requirements are enforced, which is what I really wanted to find out.

FFCogs answered how his FD enforces training requirements, they are in their By-Laws, this is what what I was looking for. bvfdjc316 was close, providing the specifics of the requirements, but not stating how they are enforced.

What I am getting at is, are the initial and refresher training requirements in writing, and if so are they By-Laws, SOP/SOG, Union Contract, or something else?

Some have posted that the Career Firefighter requirements are NY State Law. Does this mean that if you violate a State Law (not meeting the training requirements, or not wearing a seatbelt (yeah,yeah, I know emergency vehicles are exempt in NYS)) you could be terminated? What are the consequences if a Career FF does not meet the annual training requirements, and if there are consequences, what is the enforcing document/policy etc?

On the Volunteer side, what specific document, if any, mandates a Firefighter in the Department must meet a specific level of training, (initially AND refresher) or is it just "well, the Chief four years ago (who is no longer Chief) said we have to do this and that's how we have done it since.

What I am asking about, is how are the requirements enforced. Keep up the responses.

A mix of NFPA guidelines, OSHA laws, and the departments SOG's. Does every dept follow their SOG's? No...Should they? Yes. Why else do you have the SOG's in the first place; I say to save lives and and make it so we all go home. The dept will say to keep OSHA happy if they get inspected...We need something in place to MAKE the training for vollies mandatory, it needs to happen. But how?

[gamewell45 258]

Because FASNY has lobbied hard in Albany to prevent it. Their were also complaints to not mandate EMT, but harder to convince people that the person who responds to treat my grandparents or my child does not need training.

Some volunteer departments do not provide any ems service, rather it is handled by either commercial ambulance service or VAC. Most likely that the is the rationale behind the thinking whether we are in agreement with FASNY or not.

[FFPCogs 863]

A mix of NFPA guidelines, OSHA laws, and the departments SOG's. Does every dept follow their SOG's? No...Should they? Yes. Why else do you have the SOG's in the first place; I say to save lives and and make it so we all go home. The dept will say to keep OSHA happy if they get inspected...We need something in place to MAKE the training for vollies mandatory, it needs to happen. But how?

Moose,

Does your Fire Dept. "MAKE" members train? Is there a mandatory requirement over and above NYS guidelines? If so how do you do it? What are the policies ect that make "making" members train enforceable?

If your dept doesn't "MAKE" members train why not?

Cogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

Some volunteer departments do not provide any ems service, rather it is handled by either commercial ambulance service or VAC. Most likely that the is the rationale behind the thinking whether we are in agreement with FASNY or not.

Sorry I was not clear. They fought against mandating EMT for an attendant in All ambulances including fire dept. ambulances.