Training requirements & how do you mandate them

[SteveOFD 176]

I have been thinking of starting this discussion for the past couple of weeks.

How does your Department MANDATE that it's members are trained to a certain level of professionalism?

Is this mandate in writing, and if so is every member provided a copy of the Departments' policy?

For Volunteer FD's is this policy in Department/Company By-Laws, SOP/SOG, or other?

For Career FD's is this policy in the Union Contract, SOP/SOG, or other?

What level of training must members maintain after initial training?

Let's see where we all are, or where we should be.

[Bnechis 3,961]

For Career FD's is this policy in the Union Contract, SOP/SOG, or other?

State Law - Fire Training (min 100 hrs.yr)

City Law - EMT minimum for all hired after 1982 and for all promotions.

[LTFIREPRG 154]

I have been thinking of starting this discussion for the past couple of weeks.

How does your Department MANDATE that it's members are trained to a certain level of professionalism?

Is this mandate in writing, and if so is every member provided a copy of the Departments' policy?

For Volunteer FD's is this policy in Department/Company By-Laws, SOP/SOG, or other?

For Career FD's is this policy in the Union Contract, SOP/SOG, or other?

What level of training must members maintain after initial training?

Let's see where we all are, or where we should be.

Attached is the New York State Law for the minimum training requirements for firefighters in New York State. Minimum Standards for Firefighting Personnel

NYCRR Part 426 (Rev. 9/08) and Minimum Standards for

Firefighting Personnel Administrative Procedures

NYCRR Part 427 (Rev. 9/08).

Part426LawBook.pdfPart427LawBook.pdf

[FFPCogs 863]

It is in our By-laws that to come off probation you must be certified FF 1 and medical first responder (minimum MRT or whetever they're calling it this week) which is also the required State minimum for interior operations. There are also annual training evolutions required by CT OSHA including Bloodborne pathogens, Haz-Mat refreshers, quarterly SCBA, and a minimum of 1 live burn that every active member MUST attend to remain active.

Our Bylaws also require in house testing to move up in grade or "Class" within our Dept.. Our membership consists of Probationary members (and Jr. Prob 16-18), 2nd Class and 1st Class status. As stated FF1 and medical is required to come off probation, in addtion to that we require all probationary members over 18 to take and pass an in house class and exam to move up to 2nd class status. Training for members on probationary status is geared towards preparing them to take and pass this in house promotional exam. After successfully completeing the process this level allows interior ops, driver's training and qualification (for those over 21), service on committees ect ect. Training for 2nd Clss members consists of regular (weekly at a minumum) participation in peformance and objective based company level fireground operations evolutions consisting of Engine Co, Truck Co, Rescue Co and extrication drills, driver's training for those eligible and the annual state mandated training listed above. In addition we regularly schedule, review and practically apply RIT, self rescue,and safety and survival practices (semi annually at a minimum although evolutions are generally incorporated into our weekly company level drills). In addition members at this level who choose to, begin classroom and field training in preparation for our in house 1st class exam. Promotion to 1st class status is voluntary but is also required by our By laws to hold service board (line officer) positions. Training for promotion to this level is geared towards officer preparation including leadership principles, fireground operations, stratedgy and tactics and personnel management (as it applies in a volunteer organization). This training is held both concurrently with regular weekly drills and seperately on different days. It is also incorporated into the weekly evolutions to allow for the practical application of the material presented by those in training for promotion to 1st Class status.

Training for 1st Class members consists of all of the above (with 1st Class members acting as instructors at times as well as participants) along with dedicated training to review and reinforce those skills taught as part of the preparatory pre exam training.

As a volunteer organization we cannot mandate and practically enforce anything per se (as members could vote with their feet if they choose), other than the State required courses. Ours is a point based system whereby membership priviledges and status is dictated by a members participation based on points accumulated for calls, training and other duties. Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw.

Cogs

Edited February 10, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Monty 35]

I think one of the thing that complicates the volunteer answer in New York are the different structures of fire protection. I'm not an expert on this but I'd start with the suggestions below.

I'd say that in a Fire Protection District, it's the Fire Department and the Chief - the Chief reporting to the Board of Directors.

In a fire district with 'true' fire commissioners then it would be the Chief, who answers to the board of Fire Commissioners.

In a village fire department, it would be the Chief, who answers to the Village Board.

In the structure where individual Companies are part of a larger department I would think it would fall to the Chief as far as PESH would be concerned.

However, in this litigious environment I'm sure some lawyer would add the line officers and civil officers of the company to the lawsuit for good measure

[firecapt32 282]

great topic Steve- you have gotten the answers concerning career personnel--its pretty much State Law for them. Which leaves us with the interesting part, the volunteer departments--law says AHJ. So standards are left to the local departments. You can see where that might lead.

suggestion--take a page from career training--they have to actually do 100 hours of in service training each year. The training is laid out as to what hours and what subject. It covers I believe 23 different subjects. Each individual firefighter has to sign off that they recieved the training. Lets call them for a lack of a better term CFE's continueing fire education--kind of what a EMT might be required to do to keep his current status.

If your a member of a fire department and an emt you have to take over 1oo hours of training--pass a State test and then the card is only valid for 3-5 years before you have to retest or take CME'S. For your FD status your forever.

I have heard many times over the years---a fire is a fire is a fire -it is just as intense in a career area as it is in a volunteer area. With that being said, the training should blend. Does it make for problems of course, thats why there are smart people out there to figure theses things out.

The people you are sworn to protect deserve the best--career or volunteer

Just my thoughs on this subject

[Alpinerunner 61]

Our department requires 1 year + FF1 + MRT to get out of probie status.

We roll to medicals with MINIMUM 2 MRT/EMR/CFR-D onboard, and to all other calls (excluding wires down, lift assist, etc) with minimum 2 FF1 onboard.

[x635 4,066]

I've been thinking the same thing. Not only mandate them, but enforce them.

Whereas a firefighter could lose his/her job as a disciplinary measure, how do you really discipline a volunteer, especially when they're harder and harder to come by?

[firemoose827 324]

I've been thinking the same thing. Not only mandate them, but enforce them.

Whereas a firefighter could lose his/her job as a disciplinary measure, how do you really discipline a volunteer, especially when they're harder and harder to come by?

I believe every firefighter should have to be certified like an EMT as stated be firecapt32. It shouldnt be allowed to continue the way it is now (with vollie training standards) where you can take basic firefighter and be qualified as an interior firefighter and not be mandated to take any other training. For me this sends up warning flares and makes me shiver. Why havent they made this a requirement yet? EMT's need to recert but a firefighter can just go on forever without any recert training? This is where the trouble is.

Just to clarify, I used the word "Qualified" very very lightly, and in no way think that a basic firefighter should be considered as "Qualified" for interio ops. Firefighter I with hands on training from senior members and officers at calls should be the only way to be thought of as "Qualified".

In my department you need to be trained to whatever level you have applied for (Fire police, Scene Support Ops, or Firefighter I) and make 25% of each calls, drills and meetings to make it to full member. You need Firefighter I to be interior, as of now no Haz-Mat training is required.

You need Accident Victim Extrication Training to use the jaws.

You are required to attend the 8 hour OSHA refresher training and pass the firefighter physical annually to remain interior.

Personally...It should be more. Its just not enough and we need to improve this.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Training Requirements full membership:

-FF1 and/or EMT-B

-CPR/AED for Professional Rescuer

-ICS 100, 200, 700

-Preventing Disease Transmission

-8 annual hours of OSHA training

-4 department meetings

Interior Training Requirements:

-FF1 and/or EMT-B

-CPR/AED for Professional Rescuer

-ICS 100, 200, 700

-Preventing Disease Transmission

-Bailout Training

-8 Hour HMFR-Operations refresher

-Fit test

-Confined Space Awareness

Exterior:

-CPR/AED for Professional Rescuer

-ICS 100, 200, 700

-Preventing Disease Transmission

-Fire Police and/or Scene Support Ops.

Officer:

-AVET

-FF1

-Intro Fire Officer & Fire Officer 1

-HMFR-Basic Tech.

-Rope Rescue Tech. Basic

-ICS 100, 200, 300, 700, 800

-CFR or EMT-B

You mandate the the requirements by actual holding members and officers for their training and safety. Involves telling people they can not respond unless they are trained to standard.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why havent they made this a requirement yet? EMT's need to recert but a firefighter can just go on forever without any recert training? This is where the trouble is.

Because FASNY has lobbied hard in Albany to prevent it. Their were also complaints to not mandate EMT, but harder to convince people that the person who responds to treat my grandparents or my child does not need training.

as of now no Haz-Mat training is required.

Hazmat operations and annual refresher training is required under both federal and NYS law for all firefighters BEFORE they are able to respond on any calls.

Personally...It should be more. Its just not enough and we need to improve this.

Agreed. The volunteer fire service would be well served with this concept.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO?

[Guest bagbros]

100 hours of in service training, that must be nice to have.

Moose, it kinda sounds like your department has a pretty good standard. What the big problem is FD's that have no training standards whatsoever, more like if you have FF1, you're qualified! Qualified for what? Everything of course! Before the ink even dries on some certificates, there's members out there that are grabbing nozzles, the hurst tool, etc. There should be a minimum of FF1, FF2, survival, AVET, and at least a year "on the street" before you can even think of grabbing a nozzle or a tool. I agree that EMT should be a requirement but at the very least, I think CPR training should be included in a FF1 program. But until organizations such as FASNY are still lobbying in Albany, it will never change!

[SteveOFD 176]

Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO?

I can answer this question for you, I have spent some time researching the subject of training requirements. The answer is yes, anyone responding to a report of "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" is required to be trained to the First Responder Operations level.

See 1910.120(q)(6)(ii). "First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release."

[Bnechis 3,961]

>> Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO? <<

I can answer this question for you, I have spent some time researching the subject of training requirements. The answer is yes, anyone responding to a report of "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" is required to be trained to the First Responder Operations level.

Great question and Steve gave the correct answer for the junior firefighter and exterior firefighter. OSHA & PESH (NYS OSHA) have determined that all Firefighters require HMFRO before being allowed to respond, but EMS only members are only required to have hazmat awareness level. The ride along is not an "employee" so no training is required, however the dept is also responsible to ensure his/her safety.

Some have argued that they would not respond to "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" so they do not need the training. But every call has a releases or potential releases; MVA's, Fire, CO calls, odor's, peds struck (biological), flooded basement, etc.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO?

I can answer this question for you, I have spent some time researching the subject of training requirements. The answer is yes, anyone responding to a report of "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" is required to be trained to the First Responder Operations level.

See 1910.120(q)(6)(ii). "First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of the initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release."

This is why my department bars all Juniors and Exterior members from attending HAZMAT calls without IRHMI / HMFRO training. Regardless of whether a junior has attended FF1 with IRHMI / HMFRO, they are still not allowed to respond to HAZMAT or Mutual aid for safety/insurance reasons respectively.

[helicopper 1,050]

This is why my department bars all Juniors and Exterior members from attending HAZMAT calls without IRHMI / HMFRO training. Regardless of whether a junior has attended FF1 with IRHMI / HMFRO, they are still not allowed to respond to HAZMAT or Mutual aid for safety/insurance reasons respectively.

What if you don't know its a haz-mat call until you get there with a bunch of junior and exterior firefighters? Then what?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

What if you don't know its a haz-mat call until you get there with a bunch of junior and exterior firefighters? Then what?

I was going to ask the same question. As Capt. Nechis said above, MVAs, fires, EMS calls even AFAs (activated CO2 extinguisher systems come to mind) at certain facilities can contain hazardous materials or at least create a hazardous environment. So essentially you are saying explorers and juniors can't ride on any of these calls?

[Dinosaur 844]

As a volunteer organization we cannot mandate and practically enforce anything per se (as members could vote with their feet if they choose), other than the State required courses. Ours is a point based system whereby membership priviledges and status is dictated by a members participation based on points accumulated for calls, training and other duties. Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw.

Bu11$hi7!!! Volunteer organizations can and should mandate and enforce rules, regulations and above all training requirements. If a member doesn't want to abide by the rules what good are they anyway?

I've been a member of volunteer organizations that required training, attendance at drills, a duty night, work details, etc. If I didn't meet the requirement I got a "gentle reminder" from an officer the following month and if I didn't square it away I got suspended from riding and barred from social activities at the department. If I still screwed off and didn't meet my required activity, I would be brought up and disciplinary charges and could be expelled.

Just because we're volunteers doesn't mean we can't have discipline and requirements. Most often when a member votes with their feet as you put it they're no big loss.

[Dinosaur 844]

This is why my department bars all Juniors and Exterior members from attending HAZMAT calls without IRHMI / HMFRO training. Regardless of whether a junior has attended FF1 with IRHMI / HMFRO, they are still not allowed to respond to HAZMAT or Mutual aid for safety/insurance reasons respectively.

"Exterior" members is just another way of catering to people who won't get trained to do the full job. How long do you let a member stay exterior?

[Dinosaur 844]

>> Capt. Nechis a question. As you said above, a firefighter needs HMFRO before responding, ok I got that fine but my question is does a ride along, a junior firefighter, exterior firefighter or EMT only member in a fire department based system need that same HMFRO? <<

Great question and Steve gave the correct answer for the junior firefighter and exterior firefighter. OSHA & PESH (NYS OSHA) have determined that all Firefighters require HMFRO before being allowed to respond, but EMS only members are only required to have hazmat awareness level. The ride along is not an "employee" so no training is required, however the dept is also responsible to ensure his/her safety.

Some have argued that they would not respond to "releases or potential releases of hazardous substances" so they do not need the training. But every call has a releases or potential releases; MVA's, Fire, CO calls, odor's, peds struck (biological), flooded basement, etc.

ALL firefighters would include exterior only ff no?

[JohnnyOV 2]

What if you don't know its a haz-mat call until you get there with a bunch of junior and exterior firefighters? Then what?

Then they are the first ones to play canary

Edited February 11, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[Alpinerunner 61]

What if you don't know its a haz-mat call until you get there with a bunch of junior and exterior firefighters? Then what?

In CT, HazMat is part of FF1. Is it different in NY?

I forgot our department also requires competence in the maze, and completion of an airpack scramble, where guys have to search a room for pieces of a disassembled airpack and assemble it blindfolded. This is a very good drill/training.

[JohnnyOV 2]

As a volunteer organization we cannot mandate and practically enforce anything per se (as members could vote with their feet if they choose), other than the State required courses. Ours is a point based system whereby membership priviledges and status is dictated by a members participation based on points accumulated for calls, training and other duties. Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw.

This is the biggest bunch of malarky I have ever heard, and this attitude exactly why Volunteers are looked down upon when it comes to training standards. Get your rear in gear and actually enforce some rules. We're supposed to be a para-military organization, so start acting like it. If you don't like it, there is the door. We'll fill it with someone who does, volunteer or paid.

Edited February 11, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is why my department bars all Juniors and Exterior members from attending HAZMAT calls without IRHMI / HMFRO training. Regardless of whether a junior has attended FF1 with IRHMI / HMFRO, they are still not allowed to respond to HAZMAT or Mutual aid for safety/insurance reasons respectively.

Remember its not just "Hazmat" Calls. The law says ALL CALLS

1910.120(q)(6)Training.

Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (1986), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

ALL firefighters would include exterior only ff no?

YES all firefighters would include exterior.

[Bnechis 3,961]

"Exterior" members is just another way of catering to people who won't get trained to do the full job. How long do you let a member stay exterior?

You stay exterior till all that is left is the fondation....then you go home.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In CT, HazMat is part of FF1. Is it different in NY?

State sponsered hazmat training does not completely meet the legal requirements (unless you work for the state).

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)

.......... and the employer shall so certify:

THis is because the state can not teach the following:

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(D) Know how to perform basic control, containment and/or confinement operations within the capabilities of the resources and personal protective equipment available with their unit.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(F)

An understanding of the relevant standard operating procedures and termination procedures.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Remember its not just "Hazmat" Calls. The law says ALL CALLS

1910.120(q)(6)Training.

Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (1986), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

YES all firefighters would include exterior.

For devil's advocite sake, what if the junior members are riding along on the apparatus, but not taking part in the emergency, just merely observing? They are listed on our roster and held to their own training standards for junior members before they can ride on the apparatus. Will they still need to take HMFRO before they can ride?

[FFPCogs 863]

Bu11$hi7!!! Volunteer organizations can and should mandate and enforce rules, regulations and above all training requirements. If a member doesn't want to abide by the rules what good are they anyway?

I've been a member of volunteer organizations that required training, attendance at drills, a duty night, work details, etc. If I didn't meet the requirement I got a "gentle reminder" from an officer the following month and if I didn't square it away I got suspended from riding and barred from social activities at the department. If I still screwed off and didn't meet my required activity, I would be brought up and disciplinary charges and could be expelled.

Just because we're volunteers doesn't mean we can't have discipline and requirements. Most often when a member votes with their feet as you put it they're no big loss.

This is the biggest bunch of malarky I have ever heard, and this attitude exactly why Volunteers are looked down upon when it comes to training standards. Get your rear in gear and actually enforce some rules. We're supposed to be a para-military organization, so start acting like it. If you don't like it, there is the door. We'll fill it with someone who does, volunteer or paid.

Apparently Dinosaur and Johnny you didn't read the entire portion of the post you quoted. Here let me give you a remider:

Mimimums are required by our By laws to retain certain "rights" and status and although this does impact participation to a degree as far as training is concerned we have traditionally offered well run and challenging training that is it's own draw.

We have never found the need to enforce requirements, even though the requirements exist as do the the enforcement policies if they're needed. This because our membership not only values our training as a part of our traditional professional departmental attitude towards our duty, but expects our Officer's and Training Division to maintain it's quality for their benefit.

The point is unlike a paid department in which the paycheck can exert a considerable amount leverage in making people do what they have to do, volunteer organizations do not generally hold that level of power. Ultimately volunteers do what they want to, including leave if they don't like the standards, and lose very little because they can, it is as simple as that. For us we haven't as of yet had to force people to do anything, there has been no need. Our members fully understand from day one what is expected and what is excepted and follow through with what is required not because they have to but because they want to, which is a credit to their commitment and dedication. Threats and force only go so far in Vollyland and that is simply reality. Better to have 10 members that want to do what's required and do it well because they want to, than have 100 that do so only out of fear and with little ownership.

Cogs

Edited February 11, 2011 by FFPCogs

[JohnnyOV 2]

Remember its not just "Hazmat" Calls. The law says ALL CALLS

1910.120(q)(6)Training.

Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard (1986), shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

YES all firefighters would include exterior.

After looking up the laws, I found the 2 exceptions

Exception #1: an employer need not train all employees to the degree specified if the employer divides the work force in a manner such that a sufficient number of employees who have responsibility to control emergencies have the training specified, and all other employees, who may first respond to an emergency incident, have sufficient awareness training to recognize that an emergency response situation exists and that they are instructed in that case to summon the fully trained employees and not attempt control activities for which they are not trained.

Exception #2: An employer need not train all employees to the degree specified if arrangements have been made in advance for an outside fully-trained emergency response team to respond in a reasonable period and all employees, who may come to the incident first, have sufficient awareness training to recognize that an emergency response situation exists and they have been instructed to call the designated outside fully-trained emergency response team for assistance.

After reading both exceptions however, you still need at minimum awareness training... I figured I would post this anyways so other people would be aware. (pun intended...)

all of this info can be found on OSHA's website - http://www.osha.gov/...dards&p_id=9765

I'm also curious though, since NYS is a PESH state for government employees, does PESH have laws regarding this?

Edited February 11, 2011 by JohnnyOV