Scene Size Up: With One Problem

[x635 4,066]

You arrive at this building which is becoming well involved from what you can see in the front and sides. There are two people trapped in a back office by a window by the flames. Their only exit is the back windows:

But you have one complication:

Get a ground ladder? Don't think so. The back is wet marshland that will sink you to your hips.

Another problem to consider is that the floors in this building are somewhat thin. So, how would you handle this rescue?

[x129K 1,393]

Reachable with an aerial?

[abaduck 123]

I'll bite.

Tower ladder? Or think outside the box a little... maybe a roof ladder, with the hooks over the sill to provide enough support to prevent the butt sinking? Or, who gives a damn about the butt sinking if you need to effect a rescue... let the damn thing sink until it finds solid ground, then adjust the extension of the fly section as required? Or... does anyone still carry a pompier ladder?

Floors are thin and made of...?

[Alpinerunner 61]

Or, who gives a damn about the butt sinking if you need to effect a rescue... let the damn thing sink until it finds solid ground, then adjust the extension of the fly section as required?

This was my thought as well. I mean it can't get THAT soft so close to where the pillars are. Another thought is going from underneath and cutting a hole in the floor, assuming the ground is better there. Also, if the ground is very soft you can use something stable to put the ladder on. If the truck is there you can use the jack pads, maybe a large high pressure airbag (uninflated of course), or plywood if you carry it. You will have to get creative.

I don't think any type of tower or stick is useful due to access, unless you're talking about getting crazy and repelling off the tip behind the building.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Soft ground? Realistically, if burning up is the alternative, I think you could hang from a sill and drop to the ground.

If a F.D. had to effect a rescue, you could employ a roof rope rescue and then be lowered to the ground. The member to be lowered could be lowered from the roof using the tip of an aerial as an anchor point. The pitch of the roof might make this difficult and a rescue of this sort is ideally performed on a flat roof. Well...it's an odd situation. I'm thinking outside the box.

As for a ground ladder finding solid ground; those pillars could easily be 40+ feet into the ground to find stable footing. The ground ladder might not be stable at all. Remember, a 35' extension ladder weights 135 lbs. Add the rescuer and the "rescuee" and you could be sinking fast.

...I still think that someone would he apt to hang and drop. From the looks of that photo, it looks like hanging would leave you about 10-12 feet up. Not too bad considering.

Edited February 8, 2011 by M' Ave

[x635 4,066]

Here is the property from Google Maps:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1100+Round+Rock+Avenue,+Round+Rock,+TX&aq=0&sll=37.09024,-95.712891&sspn=51.754532,74.179688&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=1100+Round+Rock+Ave,+Round+Rock,+Williamson,+Texas+78681&ll=30.512005,-97.692972&spn=0.003471,0.004528&t=h&z=18

[Skindependent 15]

Depending on the position of the truck and overhead clearance, maybe extending the aerial at a negative pitch to go under the structure and use it as the platform to go up through the floor.

[wraftery 1,275]

Sounds like the rescue has to be immediate since the victim's position will rapidly become untenable.

Lay one ladder on the ground where the butt of a second ladder will be placed. Like an Ice rescue, that ladder on the ground will spread the weight. Use the stirrups at the heel of the climbing ladder to connect to the ladder on the ground.

PS

NEXT, CALL THE TV STATION AND THE BUILDING INSPECTOR.

When the reporter arrives, tell him/her to ask the building inpector "How did this fiasco ever get approved?"

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sounds like the rescue has to be immediate since the victim's position will rapidly become untenable. Lay one ladder on the ground where the butt of a second ladder will be placed. Like an Ice rescue, that ladder on the ground will spread the weight. Use the stirrups at the heel of the climbing ladder to connect to the ladder on the ground.

PS

NEXT, CALL THE TV STATION AND THE BUILDING INSPECTOR. When the reporter arrives, tell him/her to ask the building inpector "How did this fiasco ever get approved?"

Nice, but maybe needs 1 minor modification, call the building inspector who approved this fiasco, have him lay on the ground and use the stirrups of the climbing ladder on him......thus spreading the load.

[x635 4,066]

PS

NEXT, CALL THE TV STATION AND THE BUILDING INSPECTOR.

When the reporter arrives, tell him/her to ask the building inpector "How did this fiasco ever get approved?"

LOL, it happened before that portion of the city was annexed. I think it's original use was different from what it is now (small office suites). I know there's got to be some story behind it.

This is the first due truck:

Second due truck:

BOTH are equipped for rope rescue.

[JetPhoto 626]

Some pockets must have been lined building that. A commercial building with no emergency exits? Looks like they get some good flood waters under there too

Bing Maps Birds Eye View

Now looking at the size of the roof it would be very tricky to send the ladder over the roof for rapeling....in smoke and possible flames. There are also some windows on the northwest side of the building that hay help

This would definitely need to be preplanned and practiced.

Edited February 9, 2011 by JetPhoto

[abaduck 123]

Soft ground? Realistically, if burning up is the alternative, I think you could hang from a sill and drop to the ground.

If a F.D. had to effect a rescue, you could employ a roof rope rescue and then be lowered to the ground. The member to be lowered could be lowered from the roof using the tip of an aerial as an anchor point. The pitch of the roof might make this difficult and a rescue of this sort is ideally performed on a flat roof. Well...it's an odd situation. I'm thinking outside the box.

As for a ground ladder finding solid ground; those pillars could easily be 40+ feet into the ground to find stable footing. The ground ladder might not be stable at all. Remember, a 35' extension ladder weights 135 lbs. Add the rescuer and the "rescuee" and you could be sinking fast...

...but still a lot slower than 32ft per second per second...

The correct answer to all this is, identify the issue during inspection & pre-planning, and give the occupants appropriate advice. If I worked in that back office I'd want a bailout ladder. And if this was in my district we would know all about this structure...

Edited February 9, 2011 by abaduck

[Bnechis 3,961]

BOTH are equipped for rope rescue.

It is important to remember that there is a big difference between rope rescue and fire ground rope rescue.

[x635 4,066]

It is important to remember that there is a big difference between rope rescue and fire ground rope rescue.

True. But I have lost some of my knowledge, what are the main differences?

They have the capability of rappelling from the bucket easily, but would that be safe to do next to a building on fire?

[Bnechis 3,961]

True. But I have lost some of my knowledge, what are the main differences?

They have the capability of rappelling from the bucket easily, but would that be safe to do next to a building on fire?

Most rope rescues (technical rescue) involve more equipment, including belays and more solid anchor systems. These rescues take more time to set up and complete. In many cases the victim is stuck and part of the rescue involves freeing or lifting them. Rappelling is a common skill. Generally these involve more advanced training and lots of scenarios to gain experience.

Fire Ground rope rescue general has only a few minutes to get in position, set up and perform, before the victim jumps. In addition the crew generally brings the equipment along with its normal truck gear, so they are very limited in what can be carried. Minimal anchors (often made with a haligan, ladders or even firefighters), generally no belays, lowering is prefered to rappelling as it keeps the rescuers arms free. This training is much more basic and requires lots of practice to be able to perform quickly without hesitation or much time to consider set up.

[M' Ave 1,466]

We use nylon laid rope, i believe it's 15/16th' diameter. It's 200' feet long. Heavy duty clips are spliced into each end. That's all there is too it. That rope, coupled with the Gemtor harness everyone has, is all you need. A couple of good truckies can have this set-up with a member ready to be lowered in seconds. It's quick and simple, but yes, needs to be gone over all of the time. Both the engine and the truck carry the rope, but the rope is not assigned to a position in the engine as it is in the truck. It will serve as a back-up when the truck is repacking their rope. Trucks repack the rope every Monday. Typically we'll take the rope out, dump it and run through the evolution a couple of times. (The pole hole serves this activity well!) Then the the rope is inspected as it's repacked, changing which end starts the pack. This all helps eliminate the rope's "memory". We'll go through this same deal with the engine's rope every Tuesday.

The key to the fireground rope rescue is knowing the knots and the procedure COLD. There's really only one knot involved in the deployment, and in some cases none. HOWEVER, it's a long rope and you need to makes sure that you have a handle on the correct portion. The lowerer needs to be properly anchored and the lowered member has to be make sure they are properly secured and that the member handling the lowering has done everything correctly. Their life will be in that members hands!

Edited February 9, 2011 by M' Ave

[791075 34]

Hang and drop, or ground ladders. A 24ft extension ladder looks like it could sink quite a ways and still make the windows.

[fjp326 42]

Call in the Helicopper!

[gss131 212]

Push the cop car (that will probably be in front ) down the hill and stand on the roof.

[x129K 1,393]

Push the cop car (that will probably be in front ) down the hill and stand on the roof.

EXCELLENT LOO'!

[helicopper 1,050]

Call in the Helicopper!

THANK YOU!!!

I was waiting for that. Sheesh.

[FFPCogs 863]

Tough spot to be in. Spreading the weight of a ladder with plywood or another ladder does have merit as does an attempt from the roof. To me regardless of what method is used I'd want to get a crew on the roof to ventilate immediately and open up the front of the building to pull the fire up and away from the rear of the structure while the rescue attempts are being made.

Cogs

Edited February 9, 2011 by FFPCogs

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Does the FD have access to an air boat or hovercraft? If so, after you rescue The LOO from the top of my patrol car, you can take him back to shore so I can process him! Lol! Seriously, you may be able to bring a ladder out for the rescue!

[wraftery 1,275]

Push the cop car (that will probably be in front ) down the hill and stand on the roof.

The ground is soggy, Loo, if it sinks, you might have to use a second cop car.

[gss131 212]

The ground is soggy, Loo, if it sinks, you might have to use a second cop car.

Well ,I was kinda hoping it would be an "E-Rig" .

[antiquefirelt 994]

Some pockets must have been lined building that. A commercial building with no emergency exits? Looks like they get some good flood waters under there too

In all actuality commercial buildings, in this case a Business Occupancy (State Farm Insurance no less! per Google maps) quite often are allowed to have a single means of egress depending on occupant load, and that number can easily rise significantly with a sprinkler system. This being from NFPA 101, the Life Safety Code. In the case of this building, if the occupant load does not exceed 30 persons and the travel distance to the exit is less than 100 feet, they meet the allowance for a single exit. Or is the building is sprinklered and is a single tenant space with a travel distance of less than 100 ft, they can have an unlimited number of occupants.

[wraftery 1,275]

In all actuality commercial buildings, in this case a Business Occupancy (State Farm Insurance no less! per Google maps) quite often are allowed to have a single means of egress depending on occupant load, and that number can easily rise significantly with a sprinkler system. This being from NFPA 101, the Life Safety Code. In the case of this building, if the occupant load does not exceed 30 persons and the travel distance to the exit is less than 100 feet, they meet the allowance for a single exit. Or is the building is sprinklered and is a single tenant space with a travel distance of less than 100 ft, they can have an unlimited number of occupants.

Sprinklers??? That place barely has columns!!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Why not use a jet pack?

In all seriousness, this would be a tough scenario that everyone would handle differently when in the heat of the moment. I would probably go along with what some other people have said they would do. I would use a deflated airbag or Res-Q-Jack base to to provide a larger and sturdy base for a ladder. Perhaps even laying one ladder down flat and using that ladder as the base for another ladder. It is quite possible that an extension ladder would work, it would probably still have enough reach after sinking it into the ground...a different story would be getting the ladder back out.

The idea of performing a rope rescue with a ladder truck is also a good solution. The only issue would be that chances are an engine is arriving on scene first so you wont have a ladder truck to utilize in the critical first moments.

As another poster mentioned, hanging from the window and jumping would work just fine. The fall is really not that high and you will be landing on soft ground. The injuries substained if any would be a good alternative to cooking up inside the structure.

Edited February 9, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[antiquefirelt 994]

Sprinklers??? That place barely has columns!!

Maybe that's the fire protection plan? Last person out pulls a lever and the place falls into the creek! Or maybe they don't insure it as the building is disposable?

[x635 4,066]

Some more shots...

Rear of the building facing away...

AC Units:

Parking lot entrance side (right side of building):

Front drawbridge, I mean front enterance....only entrance/exit point:

Far side of the building: (left side)

And, for Chief Raftery, the rock the city is named after (City Of Round Rock, TX)