Flashpoint: Union stand on volunteers doesn't hold water

[Dinosaur 844]

What I'm saying is that to me this particular rule borders on Constitutional infringement and because of it's imposition another equally important sector of the Fire Service has been negatively impacted thereby reducing the overall level of public safety.

People always throw the Constitution up in arguments. Please tell us where in the US Constitution it says that you're entitled to volunteer in a FD even if you're a career FF?

What Constitutional right is being abridged? Be specific because I must have an outdated version. Mine is dated 1787.

[Dinosaur 844]

Here is a timely article:

CHIEF TO RETIRE, CITES NEW RULES

Spotsylvania's training standards spark a heated debate

BY AMY FLOWERS UMBLE

Chief Thomas Oesterheld preached fire and brimstone to Spotsylvania volunteer firefighters at this year's annual banquet.

His message: The county government doesn't care about you.

It's a message Oesterheld said came loud and clear over the past 12 months, a period he refers to as "the year of hell."

His 55 years of service mean nothing to county officials, Oesterheld said as he announced he would retire this year.

SETTING NEW STANDARDS

His indignation stems from the new minimum training standards, approved in October by the county's Fire and Emergency Medical Services Commission. The Spotsylvania Board of Supervisors asked for these new standards as a reaction to a Feb. 5, 2010, fatal fire, when a resident died while on the phone with an emergency dispatcher. The scene of the incident was chaotic, according to internal and external reviews of the incident.

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2011/022011/02062011/604772/index_html?page=1

55 years? Maybe the guy should step aside and let someone who is willing to be trained do the job. Jeez, that's more than TWO full careers and 48 of the 55 years were chief?

Seriously, this is his argument from the article:

The volunteer chief thought five decades of fighting fires should count, and asked to be exempt from the new requirements. County Administrator Doug Barnes refused, saying the standards have just been set and that waiving the requirements at the outset would send the message that Spotsylvania isn't committed to improving its fire and rescue system.

He can't document his training so who's to say what his qualifications really are. "Experience" needs to be documented too, that's why task books are such a good idea for credentialing personnel. You know what they've done and can document it.

Personally, I don't see any merit to the chief's argument. As a chief he's responsible for a lot more than just "fighting fires" and I don't think fire load is off the charts in Spotsylvania. A lot of activity 40 years ago doesn't equal experience in the contemporary fire service.

Essentials has been replaced with FF 1 in just the time that I've been around. What was it like in 1955? Two hours?

[FFPCogs 863]

OK, let's look at this from a different perspective. There's some industries in which the nature of their work includes "trade secrets". As such, it's pretty common in these industries to have (at least) certain employees sign a "non-compete" agreement of some sorts. These agreements would typically prevent an employee who leaves a particular company from immediately working for a "competing" company in that industry.

Would you view a "non-compete" clause in an employment contract as bordering on "Constitutional infringement" too?

Now, I'm in no way trying to say or imply that there's any sort of "trade secret" aspect in play with IAFF members volunteering, only that the effect is IMO very similar. One organization has instituted a rule that protects its own interest (the non-compete clause) and that rule would negatively effect another organization (not being able to hire a particular chemist, engineer, researcher, etc.).

I would think that a restriction on a person's employment options would be a bigger deal than a restriction on a person's ability to volunteer as a firefighter. Personally, I'm not aware of any litigation that has determined that "non-compete" clauses are unconstitutional.

Interesting anology and although I get your intent it's not quite along the same lines since we're talking about someone's right to freely serve their community not take a paid job.

Here's a thought that just popped into my head.........

If this by-law is having such a profound negative impact on the volunteer fire service, then maybe you guys should all get together and file a lawsuit?

I've heard of an interest in pursuing just such a course of action and who knows we yet see that collective effort to ban such provisions in the pblic safety field.

Cogs

[FireMedic049 597]

Interesting anology and although I get your intent it's not quite along the same lines since we're talking about someone's right to freely serve their community not take a paid job.

That kind of was the point. There doesn't seem to be much of a flap with people taking jobs with "non-compete" clauses knowing that it could put them in a bad position in a future job hunt. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem from the companies potentially effected by these restrictions.

Why no real fuss from people with potentially significant financial aspects at stake, but a lot of people are all worked up over not being able to work for free?

BTW, could you show me what legal document says that a person has the right to serve their community in any fashion, particularly via what may very well be a private entity (i.e. non-municipally operated VFD)?

I've heard of an interest in pursuing just such a course of action and who knows we yet see that collective effort to ban such provisions in the pblic safety field.

Cogs

Good luck with that.

[FFPCogs 863]

That kind of was the point. There doesn't seem to be much of a flap with people taking jobs with "non-compete" clauses knowing that it could put them in a bad position in a future job hunt. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem from the companies potentially effected by these restrictions.

Why no real fuss from people with potentially significant financial aspects at stake, but a lot of people are all worked up over not being able to work for free?

That you need to ask that question means that you are or have become far removed from what it means to be a dedicated volunteer firefighter.

BTW, could you show me what legal document says that a person has the right to serve their community in any fashion, particularly via what may very well be a private entity (i.e. non-municipally operated VFD)?

I think we've covered this already....the Declaration of Independence, specifically this passage:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —

Good luck with that.

Well this isn't my fight at the moment, just passing along some scuttlebutt, but thanks just the same.

Cogs

[Dinosaur 844]

That you need to ask that question means that you are or have become far removed from what it means to be a dedicated volunteer firefighter.

I think we've covered this already....the Declaration of Independence, specifically this passage:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —

The fact that you have to distinguish being a dedicated "volunteer" firefighter and not simply a dedicated firefighter shows the hypocrisy of your position. You're as anti-career as the people you allege are anti-volunteer.

I'm no lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I don't believe that the Declaration of Independence is legally binding like the Constitution. Your argument may be flat out wrong.

Ding, this round to the framers of the Constitution.

[CTFF 65]

At looks like at this point we are beating a dead horse, but then again that's not the worst thing to happen to a horse on the internet.

Sure the Declaration of Independence says "the persuit of happiness" it is simply not what the law states and I've point a cople of examples of what I mean earlier in this post.

You want guys to be able to be dedicated volunteers, many (like myself) want union guys to be dedicated union members and a firefighter can't do both in Stamford.

If you want to work to change the laws so employees can volunteer (doing the same job) where they work go right ahead. I doubt you'll be able to change any Unions view on volunteering ( again, doing the same job) where union members work.

[FFPCogs 863]

The fact that you have to distinguish being a dedicated "volunteer" firefighter and not simply a dedicated firefighter shows the hypocrisy of your position. You're as anti-career as the people you allege are anti-volunteer.

I'm not the one prohibiting anyone from serving based on their employment, nor do I differentiate between career and volunteer firefighting by stating one is "better" than the other simply because of the manner in which one serves. I'm not at all anti-career or anti union, I'm anti- personal rights infringement and pro-volunteer and there's no hypocrisy in that.

I'm no lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I don't believe that the Declaration of Independence is legally binding like the Constitution. Your argument may be flat out wrong.

Nor am I but there are a number of States that have decided that ones personal choice does override the union's position which leads me to believe that at least some may find the argument "right".

Ding, this round to the framers of the Constitution.

Agreed

[antiquefirelt 994]

He can't document his training so who's to say what his qualifications really are. "Experience" needs to be documented too, that's why task books are such a good idea for credentialing personnel. You know what they've done and can document it.

Even experience can be wrong. We all have seen FD's getting it wrong over and over only to be unscathed by anyone. Continually getting away with something ends up being the justification for the poor tactics or policies and very often ends poorly for some poor firefighter(s). This guy is the poster boy of what is wrong in volunteer America.

[FFPCogs 863]

At looks like at this point we are beating a dead horse, but then again that's not the worst thing to happen to a horse on the internet.

Sure the Declaration of Independence says "the persuit of happiness" it is simply not what the law states and I've point a cople of examples of what I mean earlier in this post.

You want guys to be able to be dedicated volunteers, many (like myself) want union guys to be dedicated union members and a firefighter can't do both in Stamford.

If you want to work to change the laws so employees can volunteer (doing the same job) where they work go right ahead. I doubt you'll be able to change any Unions view on volunteering ( again, doing the same job) where union members work.

CT,

that horse was dead a long time ago, but from my perspective this discussion has been not only stimulating... ...but educational to an extent as well.

We aren't going to change the world here, that's for sure but we, or at least I, have had the opportunity to gain some insights into the strongly held beliefs of the other "side" and that is always a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

In the end we are all here to serve and I believe we all do to the best of our abilities and because of that our communities benefit.

Cogs

Edited February 9, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Jp1234 2]

I'm not the one prohibiting anyone from serving based on their employment, nor do I differentiate between career and volunteer firefighting by stating one is "better" than the other simply because of the manner in which one serves. I'm not at all anti-career or anti union, I'm anti- personal rights infringement and pro-volunteer and there's no hypocrisy in that.

Nor am I but there are a number of States that have decided that ones personal choice does override the union's position which leads me to believe that at least some may find the argument "right".

Agreed

Cogs, why don't you also volunteer for the sanitation department picking up garbage. You can also volunteer at city hall doing filing for the Mayor. In between that you can volunteer for the police department writing tickets. Then you will be really saving you community a lot of money. As you stated it is your right as per the "Declaration of Independence".

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs, why don't you also volunteer for the sanitation department picking up garbage. You can also volunteer at city hall doing filing for the Mayor. In between that you can volunteer for the police department writing tickets. Then you will be really saving you community a lot of money. As you stated it is your right as per the "Declaration of Independence".

If those opportunities were available I or others just might do so. Fact is the fire service in this country, having been founded by volunteers and still largely comprised of volunteers, is an available outlet to serve that anyone that wants to should be able to particpate in.

Cogs

Edited February 9, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FirNaTine 370]

Whats always amazed me is how many Career FFs will argue all the advantages of having Career FFs around the clock to respond to the various Emergency Incidents that may arise within the municipality they work, but when it comes to the municipality they live in, they have no problem Volunteering. Why not bring forth and argue your points which to me are valid, with your Town/Village/City Officials at the next Public Meeting and try and convince them to start hiring Career members so you and your family and your neighbors will have this "quality protection" you so desire for those you protect abroad. If not, your a Hypocrite in my eyes and probably dont push for Career Staffing in your hometown cause of the same reasons other residents of municipalities dont and that is higher taxes and who wants that especially if the FD only responds to a handful of calls a year.

[FFPCogs 863]

Whats always amazed me is how many Career FFs will argue all the advantages of having Career FFs around the clock to respond to the various Emergency Incidents that may arise within the municipality they work, but when it comes to the municipality they live in, they have no problem Volunteering. Why not bring forth and argue your points which to me are valid, with your Town/Village/City Officials at the next Public Meeting and try and convince them to start hiring Career members so you and your family and your neighbors will have this "quality protection" you so desire for those you protect abroad. If not, your a Hypocrite in my eyes and probably dont push for Career Staffing in your hometown cause of the same reasons other residents of municipalities dont and that is higher taxes and who wants that especially if the FD only responds to a handful of calls a year.

Well said, good point.

Cogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

Interesting anology and although I get your intent it's not quite along the same lines since we're talking about someone's right to freely serve their community not take a paid job.

I want to d omore to serve the public safety in my community, so I think that becoming a city councilman will give me the ability to improve public safety. THe requirements in my city to run for council are: I must be over 18 y/o and live in the district I'm running for. But wait, I am not allowed to run for office because I am a career firefighter. If I still lived in the district but volunteered as a FF out of town I could run for ofice, but not as a career FF. Dose that not violate my rights? Why am I not allowed to volunteer my time to serve the community I live and pay taxes in?

I'm not the one prohibiting anyone from serving based on their employment......., I'm anti- personal rights infringement and pro-volunteer and there's no hypocrisy in that.

True its employeers that actually prohibit what I can or can not do. Not the union, since we established that even in a strong labor state I do not have to be a union member, just pay the fee for services they provide.

Nor am I but there are a number of States that have decided that ones personal choice does override the union's position which leads me to believe that at least some may find the argument "right".

The States have decided that or lobbying groups have convinced law makers that it was in there best interest to vote on a bill that the volunteers want?

If those opportunities were available I or others just might do so. Fact is the fire service in this country, having been founded by volunteers and still largely comprised of volunteers, is an available outlet to serve that anyone that wants to should be able to particpate in.

I am sure they are available, you just have to ask. I'm sure CSEA or the Teamsters would have no problem with you volunteering with public works. Funny I thought it was founded by the insurance industry (Ben Franklin) for his own financial interests.

[CTFF 65]

If those opportunities were available I or others just might do so. Fact is the fire service in this country, having been founded by volunteers and still largely comprised of volunteers, is an available outlet to serve that anyone that wants to should be able to particpate in.

Cogs

Cogs,

No doubt that the fire Service was founded by volunteers. There are more volunteer firefighters in America then there are careeer firefighters but more of the population is protected by career firefighters then they are by volunteers (according to the NFPA study from 2002 I'm looking at).

CTFF

PS I live in a town with a 100% career dept and any time they need my support they get it.

[FFPCogs 863]

I want to d omore to serve the public safety in my community, so I think that becoming a city councilman will give me the ability to improve public safety. THe requirements in my city to run for council are: I must be over 18 y/o and live in the district I'm running for. But wait, I am not allowed to run for office because I am a career firefighter. If I still lived in the district but volunteered as a FF out of town I could run for ofice, but not as a career FF. Dose that not violate my rights? Why am I not allowed to volunteer my time to serve the community I live and pay taxes in?

To me yes this is an infringement as you should be able to run and get elected as a taxpaying resident. A far as your ability to do so, well all I can say to that is what I was told a few posts back: why don't you get together with like minded citizens or fellow resident career FFs, get a lawyer and challenge the policy.

True its employeers that actually prohibit what I can or can not do. Not the union, since we established that even in a strong labor state I do not have to be a union member, just pay the fee for services they provide.

In many states it is now illegal for an employer to put such restrictions on an employee so in fact it is the union that dictates the policy. And while yes you could leave the union are you going to tell me there wouldn't be repercusons to you personally, your possibilities at career advancement, and your paycheck if you did? I think to suggest that there would be no other repercussions other than simply being a non union member that can't vote on a CBA or go to the Christmas party is ludicrous. It is the implied threat of those additional consequences the prohibition tacitly endorses that keeps some career FFs from volunteering in heavily unionized areas....or so I've been told.

The States have decided that or lobbying groups have convinced law makers that it was in there best interest to vote on a bill that the volunteers want?

I think they recognized, through the efforts of the volunteer lobby and willing career FFs, the inherent conflict the union's policy has with our guaranteed civil rights to choose what we want to do with our own time and effort.

I am sure they are available, you just have to ask. I'm sure CSEA or the Teamsters would have no problem with you volunteering with public works. Funny I thought it was founded by the insurance industry (Ben Franklin) for his own financial interests.

I'm sure they are as well and if I were so inclined to want to pursue those avenues I would seek them out, but for now firefighting will suffice.

No insurance premiums were the source of funding for the groups of people who voluntarily decided to band together to offer fire protection to their communities after a series of devastating fires throughout the colonies.

Cogs