Flashpoint: Union stand on volunteers doesn't hold water

[FFPCogs 863]

Thanks, I like a good clean fight.

Even on a topic as charged as this we've shown that points can be made and opinions expressed without resorting to "low blows".

And now back to our regularly scheduled bout

Ding...round 3

Sure, but doesn't pretty much every organization restrict (or attempt to restrict) personal freedoms or choice in some fashion? Stuff like uniforms, grooming standards, not working drunk are a few that come to mind.

Technically this is true, but there is one huge difference between these restrictions (other than coming to work drunk) and the prohibition on volunteering....public safety.

I think it's a well established fact that many VFDs rely (or relied) on the availibility of their career FF members to help cover the traditionally lean times during the day when it is difficult for other volunteers to respond, especially in this day and age. That being the case one could argue that the IAFF's restriction on their members freedom of choice directly impacts a VFDs ability to provide an adequate response. This in effect forces those VFDs to hire career personnel to ensure the public's welfare even though there are willing FFs available to provide the service.

This issue is also about more than just jobs. It's also been about working conditions. From stories I've heard about some stuff in PG county, a significant factor in the move to create this rule was how the career staff in PGFD were being treated by their fellow union brothers (who in some cases were volunteer officers, but regular FFs at their job) while working in the volunteer houses. Basically "abuse of power" type stuff from what I understand and stuff that they more than likely wouldn't like or put up with if done to them at their place of employment.

I have heard this too and if this is indeed the case it needs to be addressed forcefully. In neighboring Montgomery County and other areas the policy is that career FFs that volunteer can hold rank, but only to the level they hold on the job i.e. a career FF can only be a volunteer FF, a career Capt only up to a volunteer Capt ect. Now while this is itself a prohibition, in the interest of preventing just the type of situation you are referring to it is a fair one.

Upon rereading this topic I see that the below comments may be misconstrued when compared to statements I've made in other threads so I will refine them a bit lest I be accused of being a hypocrite or worse a liar.

2) I have not, I do not, nor will I ever advocate replacing career FFs with volunteers. Guys earned their jobs and by and large earned whatever they get from it. I have the utmost respect for my career colleagues and all the effort most of them have put in to attain their positions.

What I mean to say is that I do not advocate using the threat of replacing career FFs with volunteers as a bargaining tool. If by some miraculous turn of events a VFD or city that suffers a shortage of members and thus hires career FFs can somehow increase the number of volunteers, those new members should not be used against the existing career component. Now that being said I have no problem with redistributing career personnel or revising their schedules to better suit the conditions that exist so long as they don't suffer in terms of their working conditions or job security and more importantly in the wallet in terms of their base salary and benefits.

Maybe as someone suggested earlier volunteer representation in the IAFF could address many of the disparities that exist and seperate the two "sides" of the Fire Service.

Cogs

Edited February 5, 2011 by FFPCogs

[helicopper 1,050]

There are a lot of "prohibitions" in employment. Some seem reasonable while others seem unreasonable; it really is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, many law enforcement officers are prohibited from working security jobs or jobs that require the carrying of a firearm. Isn't that the same thing as not being allowed to be an FF in two different places?

How about not being allowed to own or have an interest in an establishment licensed by the State Liquor Authority?

How about police officers in NYS not being allowed to live outside NYS? There's a crushing prohibition when you consider taxes here in the empire state.

If you want the job, you live within the prohibitions. It's your choice so I don't think anyone is infringing on your liberty or pursuit of happiness.

[FFPCogs 863]

You give the IAFF way to much credit.

I don't know B it's my impression that the IAFF is a well organized, financially strong, generally unified organization which gives it alot of juice on the State (at least mine) and federal level.

It is illegal in all 50 States under the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938.

While it IS illegal under FSLA to volunteer to perform the same duties you are paid to do for your employer, does that carry over if a FF works for Dept X but volunteers with all volunteer Dept Y even when both are in the same city? As I see it if they are two distinctly seperate and independent entities then the FF would not be volunteering for his employer.

On a side note, is anyone familiar with the Public Safety Employer-Employee Cooperation Act.? Without going into detail (as anyone who's interested can check it out for themselves) this bill was defeated just recently. On the surface I guess it's a good thing from a volunteer perspective, but, believe it or not, I do think this may have a somewhat negative impact for paid public safety employess that don't enjoy representation. It is unfortunate a middle ground is so hard to find because in the end we all suffer.

Cogs

Edited February 5, 2011 by FFPCogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

Technically this is true, but there is one huge difference between these restrictions (other than coming to work drunk) and the prohibition on volunteering....public safety. I think it's a well established fact that many VFDs rely (or relied) on the availibility of their career FF members to help cover the traditionally lean times during the day when it is difficult for other volunteers to respond, especially in this day and age. That being the case one could argue that the IAFF's restriction on their members freedom of choice directly impacts a VFDs ability to provide an adequate response. This in effect forces those VFDs to hire career personnel to ensure the public's welfare even though there are willing FFs available to provide the service.

Cogs, you always blame the IAFF for this policy, but your argument does not hold water. Yes IAFF has a by-law that prohibits volunteering in combination depts, but how is it enforced? FDNY is an IAFF force and 1,000's of FDNY members volunteer all over Long Island, Westchester and the Hudson Valley. Your state of CT. passed a law that supersedes the IAFF effectivly elliminating the By-law, has that changed anything? I have been a member of the IAFF for almost 24 years and they never gave me a copy of this by-law, never instructed me that it existed, I have heard more about what I can and can do from you then from the IAFF. Now I am and have been an active member in the New York State Proffessional Firefighters Association NYSPFFA) which is IAFF's NYS equivilant and in 20 years the only discusions on this have occured when local IAFF shops in combo depts have made formal complaints about how they are being treated or unsafe work conditions. Our biggest issue with the volunteer fire service in NY is through FASNY (they lobby hard against minimum standards for all fire firefighters). Please stop blaming the IAFF for lack of volunteers, this is the smallest issue facing the volunteer fire service.

I have heard this too and if this is indeed the case it needs to be addressed forcefully. In neighboring Montgomery County and other areas the policy is that career FFs that volunteer can hold rank, but only to the level they hold on the job i.e. a career FF can only be a volunteer FF, a career Capt only up to a volunteer Capt ect. Now while this is itself a prohibition, in the interest of preventing just the type of situation you are referring to it is a fair one.

Thats a really stupid rule.

What I mean to say is that I do not advocate using the threat of replacing career FFs with volunteers as a bargaining tool. If by some miraculous turn of events a VFD or city that suffers a shortage of members and thus hires career FFs can somehow increase the number of volunteers, those new members should not be used against the existing career component. Now that being said I have no problem with redistributing career personnel or revising their schedules to better suit the conditions that exist so long as they don't suffer in terms of their working conditions or job security and more importantly in the wallet in terms of their base salary and benefits.

This threat has been used often and now in at least 3 combo depts in Westchester they drasticly are reducing the numbers of career firefighters and replacing them with no one. because the number of volunteers is at an alltime low. It has gotten to the point were many depts can no longer meet the 2in 2out OSHA minimum.

I find your miraculous turn of events interesting, because in the Stamford Thread you seam to believe that recruting of volunteers, while difficult can be done and this will solve the problems, when anyone has said it would take a miricle, you claim otherwise.

Maybe as someone suggested earlier volunteer representation in the IAFF could address many of the disparities that exist and seperate the two "sides" of the Fire Service.

The disparities will stop when volunteer organizations like FASNY stop fighting against standards that IAFF and unions in general have fought for. These organizations believe they can have it both ways, be treated as equals and not have minimum standards.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't know B it's my impression that the IAFF is a well organized, financially strong, generally unified organization which gives it alot of juice on the State (at least mine) and federal level.

Yes they are, but you spend more time on their volunteer position than they do.

While it IS illegal under FSLA to volunteer to perform the same duties you are paid to do for your employer, does that carry over if a FF works for Dept X but volunteers with all volunteer Dept Y even when both are in the same city? As I see it if they are two distinctly seperate and independent entities then the FF would not be volunteering for his employer.

If the VFD's have a contract to provide service to that City, the city is the ultimate "employeer" then they can not work & volunteer for the same "employeer"

[FFPCogs 863]

Good stuff Bnechis...thanks

Cogs, you always blame the IAFF for this policy, but your argument does not hold water. Yes IAFF has a by-law that prohibits volunteering in combination depts, but how is it enforced? FDNY is an IAFF force and 1,000's of FDNY members volunteer all over Long Island, Westchester and the Hudson Valley. Your state of CT. passed a law that supersedes the IAFF effectivly elliminating the By-law, has that changed anything? I have been a member of the IAFF for almost 24 years and they never gave me a copy of this by-law, never instructed me that it existed, I have heard more about what I can and can do from you then from the IAFF. Now I am and have been an active member in the New York State Proffessional Firefighters Association NYSPFFA) which is IAFF's NYS equivilant and in 20 years the only discusions on this have occured when local IAFF shops in combo depts have made formal complaints about how they are being treated or unsafe work conditions. Our biggest issue with the volunteer fire service in NY is through FASNY (they lobby hard against minimum standards for all fire firefighters). Please stop blaming the IAFF for lack of volunteers, this is the smallest issue facing the volunteer fire service.

B, with all due respect I do not blame the IAFF solely for the decline of volunteers only for one aspect of it and one that is reversible. As far as CT's law goes it does not preclude an IAFF affiliate from "punishing" a FF should he freely choose to volunteer. I will give you that the prohibition is not always enforced, but in my experience it has been enforced selectively much to the detriment of the VFDs involved and their community.

Thats a really stupid rule.

As expected I disagree with this view, but hey that should be no suprise

This threat has been used often and now in at least 3 combo depts in Westchester they drasticly are reducing the numbers of career firefighters and replacing them with no one. because the number of volunteers is at an alltime low. It has gotten to the point were many depts can no longer meet the 2in 2out OSHA minimum.

I find your miraculous turn of events interesting, because in the Stamford Thread you seam to believe that recruting of volunteers, while difficult can be done and this will solve the problems, when anyone has said it would take a miricle, you claim otherwise.

The very idea of using volunteers as bargining chips is not only personally repugnant to me, but as far as I'm concerned woefully shortsighted and dangerous. Unfortunately it is highly unlikely that volunteers will rush to the side of their IAFF counterparts when they feel that they are constantly being assisled by them on other fronts...the prohibition on volunteering being one of them.

Again B, with all due respect I have absolutely no illusions as to how difficult the recruiting of volunteers is or will be, nor do I think it will be anything less than a miracle for Stamford to get to the point where we need to be. My adamance in the other thread stems from the fact that Stamford as never attempted any concerted effort to recruit volunteer personnel. I and some others believe that given the resources we will see the increase necessary to achieve the goal. To be quite honest though at this point, given all the obstacles, I give it about a 5% chance of success. But that 5% is worth the effort as far as I'm concerned because with each addition to our ranks that chance of success increases exponentially.

The disparities will stop when volunteer organizations like FASNY stop fighting against standards that IAFF and unions in general have fought for. These organizations believe they can have it both ways, be treated as equals and not have minimum standards.

Here again you're preaching to the chior. I have absolutley no problem with equal standards so long as the availibilty to achieve them is an inherent part of the program.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Yes they are, but you spend more time on their volunteer position than they do.

Well I am a volunteer so it probabaly affects me and my "side" of the service far more than the IAFF.

If the VFD's have a contract to provide service to that City, the city is the ultimate "employeer" then they can not work & volunteer for the same "employeer"

That's what I thought although technically one would not be an employee since the recieve no compensation or in some cases only the limited compensation allowed under FSLA.

Thanks

Cogs

[Jp1234 2]

Cogs, if there weren’t volunteers (especially in combodepartments) then there would be more paid Firefighter positions. That would mean that many of theseVolunteers would have a paid FF career that they may be seeking. At your full-time career do people comein and do your job for free? Volunteers are good at soup kitchens and other charitable organizations,but in my opinion volunteers do not help the fire service especially incommunities in this area where people pay high taxes. They should be entitled to a professional response when theycall 911.

[mstrang1 213]

Most volunteer firefighters are considered "unpaid employees", thereby giving them (usually minimal) workers comp benefits and other coverages that volunteers are entitled to. So, for example, you would be considered an employee of BFD, who is contracted by the City of Stamford, to provide fire protection for BFDs district.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In neighboring Montgomery County and other areas the policy is that career FFs that volunteer can hold rank, but only to the level they hold on the job i.e. a career FF can only be a volunteer FF, a career Capt only up to a volunteer Capt ect. Now while this is itself a prohibition, in the interest of preventing just the type of situation you are referring to it is a fair one.

Thats a really stupid rule.

As expected I disagree with this view, but hey that should be no suprise

It was getting hard to follow so I pasted the thread back together.

Why do you think a career FF should be allowed to volunteer, but not obtain rank? SOunds like a double standard to me. Do you allow volunteers who are not managers in their careers be officers? What about police officers, if they are a Sgt can they be voted in above the VFD rank of LT.?

You want to promote the best, but you are willing to discriminate against career ff's because of their career. I do know a number of career firefighters who do not take promotional tests at work because they like being at the level they are. Often a promotion means losing ones house and becoming the detail officer or lose OT opertunities. They may make excellent officers, but the work rules are not always encouraging.

[Bnechis 3,961]

B, with all due respect I do not blame the IAFF solely for the decline of volunteers only for one aspect of it and one that is reversible. As far as CT's law goes it does not preclude an IAFF affiliate from "punishing" a FF should he freely choose to volunteer. I will give you that the prohibition is not always enforced, but in my experience it has been enforced selectively much to the detriment of the VFDs involved and their community.

I would love to know how the local affiliate can "punish" a FF. I work for a dept and answer to the employeer. The union works hard as the voice in terms of barganing and fair treatment.

Here again you're preaching to the chior. I have absolutley no problem with equal standards so long as the availibilty to achieve them is an inherent part of the program.

This is the single biggest item in NYS that keeps career & volunteers on different sides of the fence. Volunteers must complete a minimum of 40 hours within the 1st year and have 8 hours minimum annual inservice training. This training is available at no cost to the volunteer our his/her dept. NYS provides this training. Career FF's must complete over 260 hours before they can respond to calls (the actual training is now 480 hours not including EMT [160 hrs]) plus 100 hours of annual inservice training. Career training is paid for by the dept. This is neither equal nor available on an equal level.

As a tax payer in a city with a 100% career FD why do I have to pay property tax to support FD training for my dept AND sales tax/income tax to the state for them to provide training for other communities who have volunteers?

That's what I thought although technically one would not be an employee since the recieve no compensation or in some cases only the limited compensation allowed under FSLA.

In NYS (and many others) all volunteers are considered "unpaid employees" under labor law if they can recieve workmans comp.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Bnechis

[FFPCogs 863]

It was getting hard to follow so I pasted the thread back together.

Why do you think a career FF should be allowed to volunteer, but not obtain rank? SOunds like a double standard to me. Do you allow volunteers who are not managers in their careers be officers? What about police officers, if they are a Sgt can they be voted in above the VFD rank of LT.?

You want to promote the best, but you are willing to discriminate against career ff's because of their career. I do know a number of career firefighters who do not take promotional tests at work because they like being at the level they are. Often a promotion means losing ones house and becoming the detail officer or lose OT opertunities. They may make excellent officers, but the work rules are not always encouraging.

It's not that I'm opposed to a career FF being a volunteer officer by any means, I'm all about putting those who earn their positions in them. The response in question dealt with the specific problem cited by Firemedic049 of union FFs commanding as volunteers and treating other union FFs unfairly. If that goes on then having a career FF or officer hold rank only to the level they do while being paid should help control that type of problem...at least in theory.

Cogs

[gpeifer 89]

At the end of the day it comes down to this.... how long does it take to get adequate resources onscene to do the job people of your community expect. I being somewhat of a buff, listen to the scanner all the time. I hear a career department get dispatched, they go enroute within a minute (with apparatus, not a chiefs car) and are onscene performing their duty within 4-5 minutes.

The volunteer department gets toned out..... 3 minutes later, gets toned out again, 6 minutes later gets toned out again, a chief finally decides he/she will respond. 9 minutes later more tones......and so on.

I will not debate that some of the VF's are trained to very high standards. SOME is the key word. I will not debate that VF's give up a lot of time to volunteer. I know that weekly meetings and drills..followed by cups of tasty beverages, take up a lot of time.

I will not debate that VF's have been injured or killed while performing FF related tasks. I will though ask WHY?

There is always the career vs volunteer argument. Let me ask all of you that volunteer as firefighters....if someone volunteered to the your day job, meaning work for free..would that upset you? You would be unemployed.

Where are all of the volunteer Police Officers? Sanitation workers? DPW workers? Why do communities feel that their fire departments can continue to be volunteer. Can volunteer firefighters still provide essential services? How about at 11am on a Tuesday? And please do not throw the mutual aid song in there...what is the mutual aid department doing at 11am on a Tuesday?

I really have no problem with volunteer fire or EMS agencies. Staff your quarters 24 hours a day with sufficient personnel to meet NFPA standards, both in numbers and training. I don't care whether you compensate them or not.

Guy

[FFPCogs 863]

I would love to know how the local affiliate can "punish" a FF. I work for a dept and answer to the employeer. The union works hard as the voice in terms of barganing and fair treatment.

Well B, let's start with expusion from the union, which if I'm not mistaken is a possible action should a member violate the prohibition by law and the local decide to enforce it. Now every action has consequences and a violation is a violation, but that is not the point. The point is the by law itself is anti-volunteer.

This is the single biggest item in NYS that keeps career & volunteers on different sides of the fence. Volunteers must complete a minimum of 40 hours within the 1st year and have 8 hours minimum annual inservice training. This training is available at no cost to the volunteer our his/her dept. NYS provides this training. Career FF's must complete over 260 hours before they can respond to calls (the actual training is now 480 hours not including EMT [160 hrs]) plus 100 hours of annual inservice training. Career training is paid for by the dept. This is neither equal nor available on an equal level.

Here in CT it's FF 1 minimum for interior ops paid or volunteer, although most classes are now a combined 1 and 2 program which is about 240 hours plus medical first responder (either ERT fomerly MRT @ 120 hours or EMT-B @ 200+ hours) . Our By-laws require these to come off probation within 18 months although we do allow members to ride and gain limited experience before completing the classes. There is no statewide in service fire training minimum protocol in CT to my knowledge other than the OSHA requirements. For us at BFD training averages about 75-100 hrs of in service training per active member annually.

As a tax payer in a city with a 100% career FD why do I have to pay property tax to support FD training for my dept AND sales tax/income tax to the state for them to provide training for other communities who have volunteers?

Property taxes should pay all the expenses of a local FD and do here to the best of my knowledge Beyond that we have regional fire schools here in CT that are subsidized by the State but all FD have access to them and most use their services in addition to their local training.

In NYS (and many others) all volunteers are considered "unpaid employees" under labor law if they can recieve workmans comp.

I believe it's the same here. I've been delving into this somewhat in my free time and have found some contradictory laws. When..or if..I get to the bottom of it I'll post the results.

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

At the end of the day it comes down to this.... how long does it take to get adequate resources onscene to do the job people of your community expect. I being somewhat of a buff, listen to the scanner all the time. I hear a career department get dispatched, they go enroute within a minute (with apparatus, not a chiefs car) and are onscene performing their duty within 4-5 minutes.

The volunteer department gets toned out..... 3 minutes later, gets toned out again, 6 minutes later gets toned out again, a chief finally decides he/she will respond. 9 minutes later more tones......and so on.

I will not debate that some of the VF's are trained to very high standards. SOME is the key word. I will not debate that VF's give up a lot of time to volunteer. I know that weekly meetings and drills..followed by cups of tasty beverages, take up a lot of time.

I will not debate that VF's have been injured or killed while performing FF related tasks. I will though ask WHY?

There is always the career vs volunteer argument. Let me ask all of you that volunteer as firefighters....if someone volunteered to the your day job, meaning work for free..would that upset you? You would be unemployed.

Where are all of the volunteer Police Officers? Sanitation workers? DPW workers? Why do communities feel that their fire departments can continue to be volunteer. Can volunteer firefighters still provide essential services? How about at 11am on a Tuesday? And please do not throw the mutual aid song in there...what is the mutual aid department doing at 11am on a Tuesday?

I really have no problem with volunteer fire or EMS agencies. Staff your quarters 24 hours a day with sufficient personnel to meet NFPA standards, both in numbers and training. I don't care whether you compensate them or not.

Guy

Guy,

Volunteer firefighting is vastly different than the other occupations you cite in one very important aspect....the fire service in this country began and one could argue is still based on volunteerism.

And since you mentioned it can you (or any union Ff here) please cite a few examples of where or when volunteers have "taken" the jobs of existing career FFs. Not being sarcastic here, just curious to see the proof of this often cited argument.

Cogs

[ffp20 14]

Guy,

Volunteer firefighting is vastly different than the other occupations you cite in one very important aspect....the fire service in this country began and one could argue is still based on volunteerism.

And since you mentioned it can you (or any union Ff here) please cite a few examples of where or when volunteers have "taken" the jobs of existing career FFs. Not being sarcastic here, just curious to see the proof of this often cited argument.

Cogs

Heres one for ya. the City of Canandaigua NY FD. They laid off FF's and "recruited" new vol ff's to transistion from a "mostly paid" fd to a "mostly volunteer" fd and now routinely calls in mutual aid

[gamewell45 258]

Volunteers are good at soup kitchens and other charitable organizations,but in my opinion volunteers do not help the fire service especially incommunities in this area where people pay high taxes.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if there were no volunteers and you had to hire additional paid FF's that the taxes would be even higher and continue to increase over time??

[x152 179]

Good points as usual Barry.

And to further the points, I have had the privilege of attending numerous IAFF functions across this country (Convention, Safety, Leadership, EMS, Human Relations, etc).

In all of the time that I have spent attending and meeting with Union members from 2 countries you know what subject does not get discussed? Volunteers.

Sorry to disappoint, but kind of funny how those that have never attended the conferences or been affiliated with the IAFF, seem to have such an understanding as to what their priorities are.

What do we talk about at conventions and seminars? Little things like: staffing, collective bargaining rights, internal funding initiatives (the NASCAR sponsorship and debate was always entertaining), safety studies, safety awareness, and lots of networking amongst folks that share a common love of the job. Guess what, much of the work that is funded through these studies benefits all fire fighters, not just IAFF members.

The infamous By-Law provision that is so endeared by the anti-IAFF crowd has been around for decades and does not deal with volunteer fire fighters exclusively. For those that have bothered to read it, there is also a prohibition on work as a part-time fire fighter, Police Officer, ambulance service, and some other related fields.

I guess the same animosity used by the volunteer contingent could be echoed by Police Chiefs and AMR executives? Yet, the volunteers are hogging this one just for themselves? (Invite the cops, they will feel left out, those AMR guys are cheap and probably will stiff you on the bar tab.)

Also, I should mention that I do not agree with the IAFF or anyone (including my wife) dictating what I do. However, I do understand why these provisions exist and continue to exist after many years. In my experience, while my local might be somewhat tainted about the concept of volunteering, the only issues ( or tensions related to the issues) have arisen when members of the Local were placing themselves within the confines of a Department or organization with a chartered IAFF Local.

I do not need an IAFF By-Law to tell me how wrong and/or stupid that is.

** PS - For those still confused about FLSA...I would highly recommend the document "Managing Volunteer Fire Fighters for FLSA Compliance: A Guide for Fire Chiefs and Community Leaders" published by the International Association of Fire Chiefs (not the IAFF!). The Federal Government wrote the laws, so you will have to blame them for this and not the IAFF. Sorry again.

[firemoose827 324]

Cogs, if there weren’t volunteers (especially in combodepartments) then there would be more paid Firefighter positions. That would mean that many of theseVolunteers would have a paid FF career that they may be seeking. At your full-time career do people comein and do your job for free? Volunteers are good at soup kitchens and other charitable organizations,but in my opinion volunteers do not help the fire service especially incommunities in this area where people pay high taxes. They should be entitled to a professional response when theycall 911.

Why is it that people think we are not professional? Some of us are not, granted, there are the bad apples and glory seekers that do not portray the real volunteer spirit and dedication to community that the rest of us show daily, but there are more of us that take this as a profession even though we do not get paid.

I do agree though, the response times are horrible, and the manpower is more than pitiful to say the least, but my community just can not afford to support a career staff of firefighter/EMT's. I wish they could dont get me wrong!! Than my career issues would be non-existant but what can we do?

Excellent discussion so far, I am learning a lot. Thanks to all of you contributing good info.

Stay Safe

[ladder55 26]

Gpeifer im a dpw worker. If someone came to MY job and offered to do it for free yes it would upset me, but if there were municipalities that have always used volunteers to do my job it doesn't affect me at all. I volunteer in a 100% volunteer fire dept. We have never had any career positions so therefore nobody's job is being taken away.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well B, let's start with expusion from the union, which if I'm not mistaken is a possible action should a member violate the prohibition by law and the local decide to enforce it. Now every action has consequences and a violation is a violation, but that is not the point. The point is the by law itself is anti-volunteer.

In a strong labor state like NY, if the union threw me out, I would still have to bpay my dues (a fee) and they would still have to represent me. All that would mean is I could no longer go to the monthly meetings. In a right to work state (like FL) If they threw me out, I would no longer have to pay and they would not have to provide me services, but I'd still get whatever they negotiate. If someone really wanted to volunteer, I'm sure they are not concerned with a by law that is buried and generally not even "shown" to our members.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if there were no volunteers and you had to hire additional paid FF's that the taxes would be even higher and continue to increase over time??

Yes they would, however its been proven that if its done well the ISO rating will drop and the savings are 10-1. So for every tax dollar that goes up, the insurance premium drops by 10. 2 volunteer depts have done it without going paid (but thats out of 30,000).

[Geppetto 31]

There were some thoughts earlier, regarding minimum training standards per CT law. CT Dept. of Labor has issued this and it's posted at the Commission of Fire Prevention & Control web site:

http://www.ct.gov/cfpc/lib/cfpc/Required_Minimum_Training_-_OSHA.pdf#49547

It is very similar to NY's requirements. Enjoy.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There were some thoughts earlier, regarding minimum training standards per CT law. CT Dept. of Labor has issued this and it's posted at the Commission of Fire Prevention & Control web site:

http://www.ct.gov/cfpc/lib/cfpc/Required_Minimum_Training_-_OSHA.pdf#49547

It is very similar to NY's requirements. Enjoy.

Excellent post. Yes what you posted is basicly the minimum standard in NYS for Volunteers. It would also be the minimum standard for career ff's if NYS had not passed additional training standards for career ff's and additional requirements for career officers.

This is the problem.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Cogs, if there weren't volunteers (especially in combodepartments) then there would be more paid Firefighter positions. That would mean that many of theseVolunteers would have a paid FF career that they may be seeking. At your full-time career do people comein and do your job for free? Volunteers are good at soup kitchens and other charitable organizations,but in my opinion volunteers do not help the fire service especially incommunities in this area where people pay high taxes. They should be entitled to a professional response when theycall 911.

While your argument seems valid on the front, many communities simply cannot afford to supply their taxpayers with a fully career staff 24 hours a day. Would I like to see every community staffed 24/7 by a fully paid department with 4 guys on every piece of equipment that they have, absolutely. Nothing would make me happier to know that when I am sleeping or away at work, that there would be an arsenal of personnel ready to respond to my home is something terrible would happen. But you and I know that this is an impossible task, and many communities would be in uproar over the raise in taxes. Fortunatly in my community, we have the not just the manpower, but the knowledge base and experience during the day and at night to ensure this protection. While the response may be a little slower since we are not living in the firehouse, it is something that our communtity has not voiced concern about, and actually embraces the idea of the volunteer firefighter. Many communities however do not have the volunteer base, and nothing makes me more upset as a volunteer, then to listen to certain departments get toned out 2, 3 times for an alarm. When you have a consistent problem, deal with it. It is time to put your big boy pants on and actually admit to the community you can no longer provide a response that will satisfy the needs of the community. If it requires hiring career staff, so be it. End rant.

As for a professional response, Career departments have their good apples and bad eggs that give everyone a bad name, as do all volunteer departments. The topic of "professionalism" is the fire service has been beaten to death on this forum, and honestly I could care less if you call me professional, a volly scab, or any other term you want to throw at me, good or bad. But I know when I get in the truck, and respond to someone's house or business, I do so, and expect everyone else in my department to do so in a manner that will not leave the homeowner with a bad taste of the fire service in their mouth, while maintaining that every individual is gear up, with proper assignments so that if we do turn the corner and their is a working fire, no one is acting like they're about to lose their virginity . To do any less would be a complete disservice to the community you are supposed to be serving. End Soapbox.

edit: I was completely unaware this thread hit 3 pages... I thought we were back on 2, whoops.

Edited February 5, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[gpeifer 89]

Doesn't it stand to reason that if there were no volunteers and you had to hire additional paid FF's that the taxes would be even higher and continue to increase over time??

I would like to see an analysis on that by a community. If the community (ie:town, village) is paying for the firehouses, the equipment and supplies, the apparatus, insurance, workmans compensation, and now retirement benefits in many areas...the only thing left is salaries. I read a while ago, but with my half-timers cant recall where, but it was figured that it would cost the average taxpayer of ABC community about $350 annually for career fire protection. That is not a lot considering the service that would be provided.

Guy

[x129K 1,393]

I would like to see an analysis on that by a community. If the community (ie:town, village) is paying for the firehouses, the equipment and supplies, the apparatus, insurance, workmans compensation, and now retirement benefits in many areas...the only thing left is salaries. I read a while ago, but with my half-timers cant recall where, but it was figured that it would cost the average taxpayer of ABC community about $350 annually for career fire protection. That is not a lot considering the service that would be provided.

Guy

Did that factor in a career force that provided EMS? I am ALL for paying more per year for career fire protection, but have a VERY HARD time when a "career solution" is fire trucks staffed by 2 guys....and I mean no offense to those who are employed by municipalities that operate at bare bones staffing.

Merely getting the rigs off the floor immediately is only half of the battle...and in my eyes, "career drivers" are just smoke and mirrors.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Bullseye

[FireMedic049 597]

Even on a topic as charged as this we've shown that points can be made and opinions expressed without resorting to "low blows".

And now back to our regularly scheduled bout

Ding...round 3

Technically this is true, but there is one huge difference between these restrictions (other than coming to work drunk) and the prohibition on volunteering....public safety.

I think it's a well established fact that many VFDs rely (or relied) on the availibility of their career FF members to help cover the traditionally lean times during the day when it is difficult for other volunteers to respond, especially in this day and age.

It's also well established fact that many, many more VFDs rarely have or don't rely on career FF members to cover any parts of the day.

That being the case one could argue that the IAFF's restriction on their members freedom of choice directly impacts a VFDs ability to provide an adequate response. This in effect forces those VFDs to hire career personnel to ensure the public's welfare even though there are willing FFs available to provide the service.

As a whole, I think you're overestimating the actual impact of this rule. Not to sound too crass, but as far as the need to hire career personnel goes, so what?

Let's be clear. IAFF members choosing to volunteer in an all volunteer department is really not an issue at the top level. Any attempts at restricting that activity is likely coming at the local level and essentially not from the IAFF itself. The problem area, as clearly defined, is the combination department in which an IAFF affiliate is present.

So, to me the argument against this restriction sounds like you are saying that somehow, the IAFF has a greater obligation to ensure the public's welfare (via providing volunteer staffing) than the municipality and/or VFD who is in fact actually charged with that responsibility, even if it does mean hiring some personnel?

Maybe as someone suggested earlier volunteer representation in the IAFF could address many of the disparities that exist and seperate the two "sides" of the Fire Service.

No, the disparities and separation are not because the volunteers don't have representation in the IAFF. IMO, the heart of the disparity can probably be narrowed down to the simply fact that some people are getting paid and some people are not for doing what is perceived as "the same job". That fact alone will create issues.

What kind of representation in the IAFF are you talking about?

[FireMedic049 597]

Well B, let's start with expusion from the union, which if I'm not mistaken is a possible action should a member violate the prohibition by law and the local decide to enforce it. Now every action has consequences and a violation is a violation, but that is not the point. The point is the by law itself is anti-volunteer.

No, the by-law is actually "pro-IAFF". However, I can acknowledge that it can have a small negative impact on staffing in the volunteer fire service.

[FireMedic049 597]

Guy,

Volunteer firefighting is vastly different than the other occupations you cite in one very important aspect....the fire service in this country began and one could argue is still based on volunteerism.

And since you mentioned it can you (or any union Ff here) please cite a few examples of where or when volunteers have "taken" the jobs of existing career FFs. Not being sarcastic here, just curious to see the proof of this often cited argument.

Cogs

I have at least two in my county that I'm aware of. The Cities of Clairton and Duquesne (PA) eliminated their career firefighters and replaced them with volunteers. I believe this occurred in the late 80's/early 90's time period (before I moved into the area). Only the paid Fire Chief position remained. Clairton actually eliminated the paid Fire Chief position at the beginning of this year.

Near the end of last year, another City in a neighboring county notified their career firefighters and fire chief that they would all be layed off at the beginning of this year and be replaced by the largely absentee volunteer component of the department. Fortunately, that situation was averted.