Flashpoint: Union stand on volunteers doesn't hold water

[FFPCogs 863]

I came across this article recently written by a D/C in Canada. Although it is directed towards our neighbors to the North, I think it is just as applicable here.

http://www.firefight...tent/view/1433/

Now I know this is a rather emotional topic for some but maybe we can keep any discussion that ensues civil, after all we are all in this together and sometimes discussions on this topic can lead to an understanding that will allow us all to better serve our communities.

Cogs

Edited February 3, 2011 by FFPCogs

[abaduck 123]

I'll throw a few random comments in to get things going, and I'll second the request to keep it civil:

1. Freedom to associate also implies freedom NOT to associate; I really don't like the idea of a closed shop.

2. The article mentions forbidding vollies from responding in the hours immediately before a shift. Excuse me, I'm an adult. I don't need anyone telling me what I can and can't do in my off hours; it's your responsibility to see you show up at your job - any job - fit, sober, rested, and ready for work.

3. I can absolutely see where the union is coming from. If I was a career firefighter and union member, I would still volunteer - but I wouldn't do it in a combo department with union firefighters. That's MY choice - quite apart from union rules, I'd consider it professional courtesy.

4. Maybe the British model provides an answer. They don't have pure vollies, they only have 'retained' - a bit like paid per call. They're welcome to join the union, and many do; contracts may only affect career guys & girls, but there's a whole raft of other issues - health, safety, legal, disciplinary - that affect all firefighters, paid or otherwise. So, should vollies be able to join the union?

[Guest bagbros]

I'll throw a few random comments in to get things going, and I'll second the request to keep it civil:

1. Freedom to associate also implies freedom NOT to associate; I really don't like the idea of a closed shop.

2. The article mentions forbidding vollies from responding in the hours immediately before a shift. Excuse me, I'm an adult. I don't need anyone telling me what I can and can't do in my off hours; it's your responsibility to see you show up at your job - any job - fit, sober, rested, and ready for work.

3. I can absolutely see where the union is coming from. If I was a career firefighter and union member, I would still volunteer - but I wouldn't do it in a combo department with union firefighters. That's MY choice - quite apart from union rules, I'd consider it professional courtesy.

4. Maybe the British model provides an answer. They don't have pure vollies, they only have 'retained' - a bit like paid per call. They're welcome to join the union, and many do; contracts may only affect career guys & girls, but there's a whole raft of other issues - health, safety, legal, disciplinary - that affect all firefighters, paid or otherwise. So, should vollies be able to join the union?

Well put, especially point #3. This is a pretty touchy subject with some, and there's a few different schools of thinking here. One is "you don't do for free what you get paid for" another, "don't sh*t where you eat" meaning volunteering in a neighboring FD and providing mutual aid in your employers municipality, and the third "they can't tell me what to do in my off time." Now the one that is probably the most common with career FF's is joining an all volunteer FD which is surrounded by all volunteer FD's and doesn't provide any mutual aid to any fully career or combo FD's.

The biggest rift would be with the "they can't tell me what to do," ie, joining a combo dept and being employed as a career FF in a dept that is a union shop. Not only should this be a NO NO on the part of the union, its morally wrong for a dues paying IAFF member. While, yes, they are right you can't be told what to do in your free time, it still isn't right to go into another union shop and work for free. Let alone taking a leadership position and being in charge of fellow IAFF members. I would really hope that this doesn't happen too often, but my fear is that it does happen.

Food for thought for some that may be offended: You and I are both union plumbers, I am a member of Local 1 and you are a member of Local 2. I work my full day at my jobsite in NYC, you work your full day at your jobsite in NJ. It's 4pm, and you're on the way out the door and see me coming in with my tools and ask what I'm doing here. I reply, "I'm here to work for a few hours to help out my buddy who is the contractor for this job for free." Reading between the lines yet? Yes, you could have stayed and collected a few hours of overtime, but I showed up to do it for free thus, taking money out of your pocket. I'm not sure about you, but I wouldn't be too happy, and I'm sure the big inflaitable rat would be there in minutes!

[Bnechis 3,961]

One argument that is often brought up here is compensation claims for work-related diseases. That was argued when Ct. passed a law forbidding communities from preventing employees to volunteers. They basicly said...let the career dept subsidize the volunteer dept. The writer acknoledged that issue and suggests the following:

"Compensation claims for work-related diseases will create jurisdictional issues. This is easily resolved by pro-rating such claims based on a cumulative ratio of duty hours between the full-time and volunteer employers. This solution is not only a resolution of the argument, it’s a fair arrangement that makes the hometown department responsible for its share of the claim."

I would suggest that the same rule would need to apply for disability pension costs.

[Remember585 815]

I've got a question that may or may not fall in line with this.

If a career firefighter in "Any City" lives in "Any Village," instead of actually joining the volunteer FD in his hometown, could that guy be a "Mutual Aid Member" under the current laws?

I understand that he would need the blessing of his job, which most wouldn't want to ask for, but is this an option? If a firefighter from a career department doesn't have the time for the meetings, etc. of the local volunteer house, can he still be of use at incidents? I'd hate to see a capable, competent career firefighter willing to help out time to time not be able to do so.

[abaduck 123]

I've got a question that may or may not fall in line with this.

If a career firefighter in "Any City" lives in "Any Village," instead of actually joining the volunteer FD in his hometown, could that guy be a "Mutual Aid Member" under the current laws?

I understand that he would need the blessing of his job, which most wouldn't want to ask for, but is this an option? If a firefighter from a career department doesn't have the time for the meetings, etc. of the local volunteer house, can he still be of use at incidents? I'd hate to see a capable, competent career firefighter willing to help out time to time not be able to do so.

I could be wrong, and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me, but I seem to recall being taught that a firefighter who is a member of an FD in the State of New York can offer his or her services to the IC in any other FD in New York; nothing as formal as a mutual aid situation, just 'I'm a firefighter, if you want me I'll place myself under your command' on a incident by incident basis. Or something along those lines.

[FFPCogs 863]

Excellent responses thus far, thanks fellas.

I'll chime in on a couple of points

First off I fully agree with the author's assertions regarding compensation claims and also with Bnechis in that the same should extend and apply for any disability pension costs as well.

585, you ask a valid question and I suppose the answer to that would be dependent on the willingness of the VFD to allow such an arrangement. I can remember years ago it was common for me to be working alongside a career guy from SFRD (SFD back then) or another department at a job in my district. We had a section of our roster titled "non members assisting" for just that type of situation. It was a win win...they got to work when they wanted to and we got the help if we needed it. Now things are somewhat different as you can well imagine, and quite frankly I think that's a shame.

Ultimately for me and my fossilized dinosaur mentality I believe it should be as it used to be.....it is up to the individual to decide.

Cogs

Edited February 3, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FireMedic049 597]

I'll throw a few random comments in to get things going, and I'll second the request to keep it civil:

1. Freedom to associate also implies freedom NOT to associate; I really don't like the idea of a closed shop.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however that "freedom NOT to associate" that you mention also means that you have the freedom to not take a job in a closed shop if you don't want to belong to that union.

3. I can absolutely see where the union is coming from. If I was a career firefighter and union member, I would still volunteer - but I wouldn't do it in a combo department with union firefighters. That's MY choice - quite apart from union rules, I'd consider it professional courtesy.

This is pretty much all that the IAFF is asking of it's members on the issue. Edited February 4, 2011 by FireMedic049

[FireMedic049 597]

The biggest rift would be with the "they can't tell me what to do," ie, joining a combo dept and being employed as a career FF in a dept that is a union shop. Not only should this be a NO NO on the part of the union, its morally wrong for a dues paying IAFF member. While, yes, they are right you can't be told what to do in your free time, it still isn't right to go into another union shop and work for free. Let alone taking a leadership position and being in charge of fellow IAFF members. I would really hope that this doesn't happen too often, but my fear is that it does happen.

As I mentioned above, the IAFF's position on this matter is pretty simple IMO and is pretty much what you stated. Contrary to what some volunteers may think, in general the IAFF really doesn't care if its members volunteer as firefighters in all volunteer fire departments, particularly those in the less urban areas where the tax base and call volume usually doesn't support having career firefighters.

What the IAFF does care about and has a by-law forbidding is its members serving as volunteer firefighters in fire departments in which another IAFF Local exists.

I can't say how often this happens, but I do know it's very prevalent in the metro DC area - particularly in Prince George's County MD. Many of that county's volunteers are career firefighters in other departments in that region and I'd speculate that they come to PG County to run calls not out of the desire to serve their hometown community, but rather for their own personal gratification given the amount of fires they have there.

[abaduck 123]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however that "freedom NOT to associate" that you mention also means that you have the freedom to not take a job in a closed shop if you don't want to belong to that union.

The we'll agree to differ. I'm not remotely anti-union; my father was a union man all his working life, and I've worked a union job in the past - and refused to cross a picket line during a dispute.

I believe if there is a union you should join it. But I also believe you shouldn't ever HAVE to join a union to get or keep any job; I don't believe closed shops should be allowed to exist. Union membership should always be a matter of individual conscience. That's my view, and I respect the fact that others may differ.

[jd783 64]

Ask Derek Jeter to play on your softball team see what his union says

[NWFDMedic 58]

The we'll agree to differ. I'm not remotely anti-union; my father was a union man all his working life, and I've worked a union job in the past - and refused to cross a picket line during a dispute.

I believe if there is a union you should join it. But I also believe you shouldn't ever HAVE to join a union to get or keep any job; I don't believe closed shops should be allowed to exist. Union membership should always be a matter of individual conscience. That's my view, and I respect the fact that others may differ.

Is there such a thing as a legal closed shop in NYS? When I worked a job with a union shop, I was offered the opportunity to join the union but was told that, by law, I was allowed to decline. However, because the union was still the bargaining unit and they were bargaining on my behalf, I was still responsible for paying dues (or more appropriately stated a fee) to the union if I were to choose to not become a member. Obviously, this would have been stupid as I would have been paying and not getting the other benefits of the union.

[FFPCogs 863]

As I mentioned above, the IAFF's position on this matter is pretty simple IMO and is pretty much what you stated. Contrary to what some volunteers may think, in general the IAFF really doesn't care if its members volunteer as firefighters in all volunteer fire departments, particularly those in the less urban areas where the tax base and call volume usually doesn't support having career firefighters.

I know many career FFs that volunteer and I commend them for it considering that it is the stated policy of the IAFF' President that VFDs are "rival" organzations. To me it seems that this belief is what sets the tone and in part creates much of the animosity that exists between career and volunteer FFs. It is true that there may be locals that turn a blind eye towards members volunteering, but it has been my experience that this latitude is very selective.

What the IAFF does care about and has a by-law forbidding is its members serving as volunteer firefighters in fire departments in which another IAFF Local exists.

And this is their right and some could argue their responsibility. But what about cities with a career dept and another one (or more) that is all volunteer in which union FFs want to actively volunteer for one of those all volunteer FDs in the same city? To the best of my knowledge this is strongly discouraged if not prohibited outright is it not? Why?

I can't say how often this happens, but I do know it's very prevalent in the metro DC area - particularly in Prince George's County MD. Many of that county's volunteers are career firefighters in other departments in that region and I'd speculate that they come to PG County to run calls not out of the desire to serve their hometown community, but rather for their own personal gratification given the amount of fires they have there.

It may indeed be true that these "two-hatters" volunteer simply for personal gratification but our nation's Constitution guarantees them the right to do so with the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". On a far more practical level it is a matter of simple economics, volunteers save money since a good 85-90% of a career FDs budget goes towards salaries. In PG and other such places it is a fact that volunteers be they career FFs also or not save the county millions of dollars every year....a benefit to the taxpayers many of whom are these very same career two-hatters.

Personally I think that the union's stance is nothing more than an attempt to ensure the expansion of the union, regardless of the impact to the community, especially when you consider that many career FFs don't live in the same cities in which they work and therefore aren't footing the bill.

Ding..round 1

Cogs

Edited February 4, 2011 by FFPCogs

[gss131 212]

Ask Derek Jeter to play on your softball team see what his union says

I don't know about Jeter but I hear Pettitte is available. Edited February 4, 2011 by gss131

[antiquefirelt 994]

If a career firefighter in "Any City" lives in "Any Village," instead of actually joining the volunteer FD in his hometown, could that guy be a "Mutual Aid Member" under the current laws?

If you are working "mutual aid" then you are in essence working as an employee of your primary job, and thus must be compensated as such. I'd think the Union would certainly not allow it's members to basically make their own overtime schedule based on performing "mutual aid" to any dept. I'm sure the City's insurance company and budget hawks would be equally displeased. Our members never work M/A without an officer of our FD present. Sorry, not never, this does happen frequently for EMS which are typically non-officer incidents.

[firecapt32 282]

let me just add some food for thught on this matter and that is---accidents/injuries. If said career firefighter is a volunteer in another department and lets say fall in a hole in the floor and breakes a leg (god forbid).

1-if he cannot go to work is he intitles to workers comp?? what about his salary at his career job.if he broke his leg on the job he would be entitled to full salary untill he could return and then posibile 3/4 or full penison if he cannot return.

2-what if he cannot return to work at all then what happens.

there are a lot things we can chat about and kick around but if i was an employer taking on the responsibilities of sick time, retirement,things like that i might want to have some kind of clause in there protecting the departments investment in the individual firefighter.

So i guess the problem should be with the employer not the emplpoyee---

BTW--i am sure jeter has a clause in his baseball contract forbids such activities as softball, basketball or other dangerous things that might interfere from him getting his 3000th hit.

I know he could get by a car crossingthe street or a frying pan from some disgruntled woman accidents happen but precautions shouod be taken

just my thoughts

[antiquefirelt 994]

let me just add some food for thught on this matter and that is---accidents/injuries. If said career firefighter is a volunteer in another department and lets say fall in a hole in the floor and breakes a leg (god forbid).

1-if he cannot go to work is he intitles to workers comp?? what about his salary at his career job.if he broke his leg on the job he would be entitled to full salary untill he could return and then posibile 3/4 or full penison if he cannot return.

2-what if he cannot return to work at all then what happens.

Well, while I do think the VFD should cover the cost of the workers comp, in reality one of my guys just tore his ACL skiing, and is out 4-6 months with re-constructive surgery and PT, yet he retains full pay via sick leave. So while it's not a WC issue, there's not as much a chance of losing out on pay.

[firecapt32 282]

chief you are 100% correct he is covered under sick time policys. the question is how would you deal with it if he got hurt doing what you trained him to do for another department that you had no control over? In NY unlimited sick time is one year for non job related injuries. OJI are indefiniate or untill disibility retirement.

Question remains as an employer can you put thoses restraint on a employee? no you cannot work for another department even as a volunteer.

[gss131 212]

And who's to say if heart or cancer benefits could be contested ?

Edited February 4, 2011 by gss131

[JohnnyOV 2]

let me just add some food for thught on this matter and that is---accidents/injuries. If said career firefighter is a volunteer in another department and lets say fall in a hole in the floor and breakes a leg (god forbid).

1-if he cannot go to work is he intitles to workers comp?? what about his salary at his career job.if he broke his leg on the job he would be entitled to full salary untill he could return and then posibile 3/4 or full penison if he cannot return.

2-what if he cannot return to work at all then what happens.

How is this any different then if he raced cars on the weekend for compensation, or any other side job where he is injured? Why is it such a big deal to people about getting injured as a volunteer, when a good bit career personnel have side jobs that are dangerous as well (electrician, roofer etc. etc.). What happens when they get injured there and cannot return to work at the station? Wouldn't it be the same as if he was injured in a fire as a volunteer.

edit: Don't take what I said the wrong way, I am all for career public safety employees working side jobs to supplement their pay. You have to be able to put food on the table, and put some away for later too.

Edited February 4, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[Guest alsfirefighter]

How is this any different then if he raced cars on the weekend for compensation, or any other side job where he is injured? Why is it such a big deal to people about getting injured as a volunteer, when a good bit career personnel have side jobs that are dangerous as well (electrician, roofer etc. etc.). What happens when they get injured there and cannot return to work at the staiton? Wouldn't it be the same as if he was injured in a fire as a volunteer.

One of the main differences involves how much tighter municipalities are becoming with 207A and C benefits for professional firefighters and police officers. Who is to say a municipality with knowledge of the employees activities won't argue that an injury sustained while at work wasn't caused or occurred while performing the same duties as a volunteer.

As far as the comment about working in one city and volunteering for another. If you are a incorporated city in the state of NY you are tasked with providing police and fire services. There are no municipalities tagged with the "city of" to my knowledge that do not have some form of professional firefighters. Where the unions do run into problems is when a district or village is on the fence (and often they realize they need to) about brining in professional personnel and you have union members volunteer there holding onto the shop. Right or wrong that is often the case.

I have no quarms about sharing the fact that I volunteered for some time where I lived and being a professional firefighter. However..not once did I respond to a call for mutual aid into one of our neighboring districts who had career staff. Even after discussing it with a couple of close friends there who explained they have a immediate total call back for any fire that went to a second alarm so it wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps..but maybe if they hired more staffing some jobs wouldn't make it to a second alarm.

[FFPCogs 863]

How is this any different then if he raced cars on the weekend for compensation, or any other side job where he is injured? Why is it such a big deal to people about getting injured as a volunteer, when a good bit career personnel have side jobs that are dangerous as well (electrician, roofer etc. etc.). What happens when they get injured there and cannot return to work at the staiton? Wouldn't it be the same as if he was injured in a fire as a volunteer.

My thoughts as well. Injuries on off time occur when off no matter what the cause. If union members are to be prohibited from actively engaging in volunteer firefighting because they might get a boo boo than that policy should apply across the board and carry over to prohibit career FFs from engaging in ANY off duty activity especially side jobs that have the potential to cause injury while off duty.

Cogs

[firemoose827 324]

I could be wrong, and if I am I'm sure someone will correct me, but I seem to recall being taught that a firefighter who is a member of an FD in the State of New York can offer his or her services to the IC in any other FD in New York; nothing as formal as a mutual aid situation, just 'I'm a firefighter, if you want me I'll place myself under your command' on a incident by incident basis. Or something along those lines.

In my old department we had a SUNY college in our district, and a lot of the students there that lived in the dorms were also volunteer firefighters for their home departments. They got permission from their home chiefs to help us out while at school on a "Mutual Aid Agreement" between our chief and theirs. It worked out well, and gave us more manpower for those weekday calls when most of our volunteers were at work. I dont know if this could work out the same for career firefighters serving their local volunteer departments while off duty or not but it would help.

[gamewell45 258]

I believe if there is a union you should join it. But I also believe you shouldn't ever HAVE to join a union to get or keep any job; I don't believe closed shops should be allowed to exist. Union membership should always be a matter of individual conscience. That's my view, and I respect the fact that others may differ.

Closed shops are illegal in many states (Taft-Hartley Act of 1948) and what you are describing amounts to what the laws are in the so-called Right-To-Work states where union membership cannot be a requirement in order to maintain employment. These people, who do not pay any dues and are not members of the union, still receive the benefits of being covered under the collective bargaining agreement and are referred to as "freeloaders" since they leach off of others who are members who pay dues towards the bargaining and maintenance of labor agreements.

That being said, in New York State, which is an Agency Shop, you cannot be forced to join a union, but as a condition of employment, you must pay a fee equal to what the dues would normally be. This is known as an agency fee payer. There are also the so-called "Core Members" and they are those whom pay the same fee as Agency Fee Payers, however they get back a partial refund based on how much money is spent on non-contract related expenses such as organizing, parties/social events, etc. Core and Agency fee payers do not have a right to vote on labor agreements, nor are they eligible to participate in union sponsored benfits such as social events, education, run for positions within the union and other fringe benefits provided soley by the union.

All this being said, as a disclaimer, I'm not aware of any language in the public sector being different from private sector since this is federal law and applies to all equally as described.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know many career FFs that volunteer and I commend them for it considering that it is the stated policy of the IAFF' President that VFDs are "rival" organzations. To me it seems that this belief is what sets the tone and in part creates much of the animosity that exists between career and volunteer FFs. It is true that there may be locals that turn a blind eye towards members volunteering, but it has been my experience that this latitude is very selective.

You give the IAFF way to much credit.

But what about cities with a career dept and another one (or more) that is all volunteer in which union FFs want to actively volunteer for one of those all volunteer FDs in the same city? To the best of my knowledge this is strongly discouraged if not prohibited outright is it not? Why?

It is illegal in all 50 States under the Federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938.

[FireMedic049 597]

I know many career FFs that volunteer and I commend them for it considering that it is the stated policy of the IAFF' President that VFDs are "rival" organzations. To me it seems that this belief is what sets the tone and in part creates much of the animosity that exists between career and volunteer FFs. It is true that there may be locals that turn a blind eye towards members volunteering, but it has been my experience that this latitude is very selective.

You're only partially correct regarding the "rival" organizations thing. It's my understanding that VFDs are not considered to be rival organizations simply because they are VFDs.

And this is their right and some could argue their responsibility. But what about cities with a career dept and another one (or more) that is all volunteer in which union FFs want to actively volunteer for one of those all volunteer FDs in the same city? To the best of my knowledge this is strongly discouraged if not prohibited outright is it not? Why?

Clearly your question is about Stamford and yes, I believe this would fall under the prohibited category. As for why, well I'd suppose that even though they are separate organizations, since they are all within the same municipality it would likely be viewed as a quasi-combo department and fall into the don't volunteer where there is an IAFF Local in place.

It may indeed be true that these "two-hatters" volunteer simply for personal gratification but our nation's Constitution guarantees them the right to do so with the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". On a far more practical level it is a matter of simple economics, volunteers save money since a good 85-90% of a career FDs budget goes towards salaries. In PG and other such places it is a fact that volunteers be they career FFs also or not save the county millions of dollars every year....a benefit to the taxpayers many of whom are these very same career two-hatters.

I'm not debating their constitutional rights. I was referring to the common justification argument of a career firefighter's "duty" to serve the community in which they live. In the PG situation I was referring to, I don't believe that the majority that are "two-hatters" in PG are there for that type of altruistic reasons. They are likely there not out of a sense of obligation to their community, but to satisfy their personal agendas and that makes what they are doing a problem for that Local.

Personally I think that the union's stance is nothing more than an attempt to ensure the expansion of the union, regardless of the impact to the community, especially when you consider that many career FFs don't live in the same cities in which they work and therefore aren't footing the bill.

I disagree. Sure, there's probably some "protective" aspects to it, but I don't believe that it's as sinister as some have applied. Besides, who wouldn't want to protect their livelihood and organization?

Many career FFs don't live where they work because they can't afford the cost of living in that community.

Ding..round 1

Ding.....Round 2?

[abaduck 123]

It may indeed be true that these "two-hatters" volunteer simply for personal gratification but our nation's Constitution guarantees them the right to do so with the words "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

OK it's not that long since I became a US citizen, so I may be wrong, but I'm sure I remember reading that in the Declaration of Independence... I don't believe it IS in the Constitution.

[FFPCogs 863]

OK it's not that long since I became a US citizen, so I may be wrong, but I'm sure I remember reading that in the Declaration of Independence... I don't believe it IS in the Constitution.

Give the man a cigar..you are correct. Thanks I stand corrected.

[FFPCogs 863]

You're only partially correct regarding the "rival" organizations thing. It's my understanding that VFDs are not considered to be rival organizations simply because they are VFDs.

Clearly your question is about Stamford and yes, I believe this would fall under the prohibited category. As for why, well I'd suppose that even though they are separate organizations, since they are all within the same municipality it would likely be viewed as a quasi-combo department and fall into the don't volunteer where there is an IAFF Local in place.

I'm not debating their constitutional rights. I was referring to the common justification argument of a career firefighter's "duty" to serve the community in which they live. In the PG situation I was referring to, I don't believe that the majority that are "two-hatters" in PG are there for that type of altruistic reasons. They are likely there not out of a sense of obligation to their community, but to satisfy their personal agendas and that makes what they are doing a problem for that Local.

I disagree. Sure, there's probably some "protective" aspects to it, but I don't believe that it's as sinister as some have applied. Besides, who wouldn't want to protect their livelihood and organization?

Many career FFs don't live where they work because they can't afford the cost of living in that community.

Ding.....Round 2?

Not quite a KO but good points indeed and well presented too.....thanks

Before anyone gets the wrong idea let me clarify a couple of things.

1) I believe that anything a union or CBU can negotiate for and get they are absolutely entitled to and the City or other party is bound by that agreement and should be held to it to the letter.

2) I have not, I do not, nor will I ever advocate replacing career FFs with volunteers. Guys earned their jobs and by and large earned whatever they get from it. I have the utmost respect for my career colleagues and all the effort most of them have put in to attain their positions.

That being said I do have a problem with any organization that restricts personal freedoms or choice. And while others may disagree, to me that is what the prohibition on volunteering boils down to.

Is there common ground whereby career FFs that want to volunteer where they live can? Maybe, maybe not.

To me so long as someone's job is not threatened there shouldn't be a problem in career guys volunteering even if their volly house has career staffing also. This arrangement worked for years, everyone made a decent living, fed their families, served their communities and kept taxes down a little. The only real threat is to potential jobs, jobs that may not need to be filled if career FFs volunteer on their off time to help maintain an adequate response for their VFD thereby reducing the need to hire additional career FFs.

Cogs

Edited February 5, 2011 by FFPCogs

[FireMedic049 597]

Not quite a KO but good points indeed and well presented too.....thanks

Thanks, I like a good clean fight.

That being said I do have a problem with any organization that restricts personal freedoms or choice. And while others may disagree, to me that is what the prohibition on volunteering boils down to.

Sure, but doesn't pretty much every organization restrict (or attempt to restrict) personal freedoms or choice in some fashion? Stuff like uniforms, grooming standards, not working drunk are a few that come to mind.

Is there common ground whereby career FFs that want to volunteer where they live can? Maybe, maybe not.

To me so long as someone's job is not threatened there shouldn't be a problem in career guys volunteering even if their volly house has career staffing also. This arrangement worked for years, everyone made a decent living, fed their families, served their communities and kept taxes down a little. The only real threat is to potential jobs, jobs that may not need to be filled if career FFs volunteer on their off time to help maintain an adequate response for their VFD thereby reducing the need to hire additional career FFs.

Cogs

This issue is also about more than just jobs. It's also been about working conditions. From stories I've heard about some stuff in PG county, a significant factor in the move to create this rule was how the career staff in PGFD were being treated by their fellow union brothers (who in some cases were volunteer officers, but regular FFs at their job) while working in the volunteer houses. Basically "abuse of power" type stuff from what I understand and stuff that they more than likely wouldn't like or put up with if done to them at their place of employment.