Lights, Sirens and Liability!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

You can believe what ever you care to. Our insurance underwriter believes you are wrong and tells us so. You are correct that a number should not be the focus, So we dont let new members drive because they need experience as firefighters and/or EMTs before they drive, not because of their age. The worst EMS drivers are often the ones with the least time in the back.

Could it be that an actuarial number is the reason for this? Inexperienced drivers have the most accidents, without the added responsability of emergency response.

You state that they might run over someone with a tank...They are actually trained to do so. Unlike the emergency vehicle.

I agree with people needing plenty of time in the back of the rig. I am actually trying to set up some sort of system like that for Drivers in my VAC. A certain amount of time in the back before being able to drive should be mandatory.

They are not trained to run over innocent people...only threats. At least that would be my assumption. If there was a suicide bomber or some person who posed such a threat as death to me and my crew, I would probably run the person over as well if it would save my life and my crew members lives.

A lot of people have mentioned issues with NYPD driving requirements. Does the NYPD allow PO's to drive as soon as they start patrolling? I have no idea how many young cops (21-23 lets say) there are in the NYPD but probably a good amount. Can anyone elaborate on the driving training for the NYPD?

This is an interesting subject for discussion. It seems to me that for the most part everyone is agreeing but wording things different.

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers. With that said, I do feel that these must be filtered. Perhaps even more filtered than some agencies/department do. I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline. I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Our country trusts 18 year old to go into Iraq with a bunch of explosives and powerful guns and kill people to protect our freedom. We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc. These same people should be able to drive fire trucks and ambulances.

On a side note, they should be able to drink to!!!

To edit my original post to better express my opinion, it should read... something along the lines of 18 or 21 years of age not being too young as long as you pick the right 18 or 21 year olds. The exceptions as they have been called in this thread.

Edited February 2, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[RWC130 594]

I'm glad to see the positive discussion this thread has sparked.

As for myself, I'm 36 years old. I joined a VAC Youth Group at 14 years old.

Learned about CPR and First-Aid. Started riding as an Attendant at 16. Came up through

the ranks. I took the EMT Course and Driver Training Class at 18.

I wanna take a guess and say back then EMT was about 100 hours or so.

The Driver Training Class was about 3 hours.

"Driver Training" was a Video and going out for a ride with a Driver Trainer or VAC Officer. I drove back from the Hospital a few times and I was cleared to drive CODE 3.

CODE 3!!!!

Yaaaa Hooooo!

I can tell you first hand that 18 is way too young to be driving ANY type of Emergency Vehicle.

Why do I say this? Having the knowledge and life experience I do now I look back and think how

glad I am that I didn't hurt or kill someone on the road or on my crew.

At the age of 18 you are focused on how fast you can go and how much you can play with

Yelp, Wail, Air Horns, etc. It's a BIG RUSH!

The thought of my Speed, Weight of Vehicle, or SAFETY of the Crew

and Patient prob never crossed my mind. Was this because I was a bad guy? No

I was INEXPERIENCED!

It was all about the LIGHTS AND SIREN!

Today, I still drive that Ambulance but never like my younger days.

SAFETY IS PRIORITY!

[223Truck 0]

Thank you RWC130, that is exactly what I mean!

As for the NYPD, no recruit comes out of the accedemy and is put behind the wheel. They are put on the streets for at least 6 months. Some even longer. Why? Because they need experience, and once they get in a car, they're not driving.

[helicopper 1,050]

1)The law has always stated

§ 1104. Authorized emergency vehicles. (a) The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle, when involved in an emergency operation, may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions herein stated.

( The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle may:

1. Stop, stand or park irrespective of the provisions of this title;

2. Proceed past a steady red signal, a flashing red signal or a stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;

3. Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as he does not endanger life or property;

4. Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning in specified directions.

© Except for an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle or bicycle, the exemptions herein granted to an authorized emergency vehicle shall apply only when audible signals are sounded from any said vehicle while in motion by bell, horn, siren, electronic device or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted lamp so that from any direction,under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet from such vehicle, at least one red light will be displayed and visible.

I have read a couple of court cases where they stated the "reasonably necessary" was at any time was following any of the "exceptions (i.e speeding, passing in no passing area, crossing double yellow lines, going thru controlled intersections).

2) if you can hear the radio, you need headsets. or your siren may be improperly located or sielded.

Yes, that is the way the law is written but who doesn't apply a little bit of common sense and turn the damn noisebox off on a straight away with no intersections, no traffic, and no pedestrians at 2:30 in the morning?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Yes, that is the way the law is written but who doesn't apply a little bit of common sense and turn the damn noisebox off on a straight away with no intersections, no traffic, and no pedestrians at 2:30 in the morning?

Oh I can think of a few guys....

[Alpinerunner 61]

Capt.

I've read this section numerous times over the years, but it just clicked that the way this is worded, during an emergency response, I do not need to use the siren at all. As long as I have my red or white lights on I can lay on the bell and be covered by this section.

Or your exhaust whistle! Bub Rubb and Lil Sis? "The whistles go woooo-woooooo. But it's only in the mo'nin, when we up cookin breakfis" Anyone?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Or your exhaust whistle! Bub Rubb and Lil Sis? "The whistles go woooo-woooooo. But it's only in the mo'nin, when we up cookin breakfis" Anyone?

Nice call! You beat me too it.

ENJOY!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_JtoW7GrdY

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yes, that is the way the law is written but who doesn't apply a little bit of common sense and turn the damn noisebox off on a straight away with no intersections, no traffic, and no pedestrians at 2:30 in the morning?

I agree on the common sense, but the lawyers will get you if you hit something.

I also remember a chief telling us: "If I got to be up........everybody got to be up". Step on that siren switch.

[PEMO3 523]

Can anybody back up these age claims with actual DATA? At first glance, it seems to me we have more older apparatus drivers getting into fatal MVAs then younger, but I haven't actually run the numbers.

To answer your request, in 1990 the National Personal Transportation Survey was conducted and in summary found "Considering accidents of all levels of severity, drivers 16-19 had the highest rate per mile in 1990, experiencing 3.3 times the risk of drivers of all ages." The entire report can be viewed at http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/1007/2/83596.0001.001.pdf . Similarly another survey found "Drivers ages 15-20 accounted for 12% of all drivers involved in fatal crashes in 2008 and 14% of all drivers involved in police-reported crashes." The entire report can be found at http://www.rmiia.org/auto/teens/Teen_Driving_Statistics.asp.

So it can not be said that this is regular vehicles and not "emergency vehicle operation the Wisconsin EMS Association found: "Whenever possible, emergency vehicle drivers should ordinarily be between the ages of 25 and 70. All vehicle crash data clearly shows a significantly increased risk for those drivers under the age of 25 with a graduating risk for drivers beginning at age 65. Emergency vehicle crash data show the same results including four out of the five last fatal crashes involved drivers under the age of 25. Because of the nature of emergency services, some EMS organizations may have limited options with regard to driver age. Whenever possible, emergency vehicle operations should ordinarily be completed by those within the 25-70 age bracket." This report can be found at http://www.objectivesafety.net/WEMSAEmergencyVehicleOperations.pdf

I hope this provides the data to support the theory.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

That data is from Wisconsin....can it asctually be regarded as accurate? Just kidding The data makes sense to me.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers. With that said, I do feel that these must be filtered. Perhaps even more filtered than some agencies/department do. I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline. I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Our country trusts 18 year old to go into Iraq with a bunch of explosives and powerful guns and kill people to protect our freedom. We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc. These same people should be able to drive fire trucks and ambulances.

On a side note, they should be able to drink to!!!

The only differences within you theory is this...the 18 year old overseas in combat areas...has had more time with the rifle he/she carries or the other weapons they're responsible for more then they've been behind the wheel of the vehicle. Plus when you're in a tank..there are a lot less decisions to be made and you have an entire crew directing you and giving you input then when making nearly 400 decisions a minute when operating an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens. Bottom line is this...at 18 you have 2 years of driving experience...21 just 3. Its not really all that much when you think about it. I for one am an advocate for at least 21 and to be honest would like to see it a bit higher.

If the ages you state are not "too young for drivers" then why do you stipulate 2 different ages?

Finally I'm still shocked at the amount of L & S use I see for calls that are not true emergencies on the fire and EMS side. Lack of policies for on the quiet responses, and for down grading once units arrive on scene and have a good grasp of the situations and its needs are obvious. I couldn't tell you how many times I've BLS'd a call only to have the bus go by me lights and sirens. Or have drivers who damn well know I rarely, rarely utilize L & S for transport leave the lights on when leaving without saying anything...or just take off and start using them with the "oh I thought you wanted it." L & S should be something you ask for or tell them to use...not the other way around. Its just flat out ridiculous.

OK. First off in regards to a few of the other comments. It is common sense to shut off the box on the straight away no traffic and doing the speed limit. The law states you have to have your L & S on when utilizing one of the exemptions in V & T sec 1104. A lawyer will try to get you no matter what you do if you hit something.

Also...I'm glad I haven't had to hear the..."I'm up..everyone is up" comment anymore. I mean hell...your garbage men often arrive in the wee hours...how about they start banging garbage cans since "they're up."

[v85 212]

If at 18 you have 2 years of driving experience, how do you at 21 only have 3 years? I think it should be five

Also, I wonder if those statistics from objectivesafety.com took police officers into account? I just did a little preliminary research on odmp.org and came up with the numbers of the average age of a police officer being involved in a fatal MVA, in which their driving played a factor (ie. NOT a situation where a drunk blew a red light etc) was an average of 41.5 years old, a mode age of 39, and a median age of 39. When an outlier of 76 years old was removed, it was a median age of 39, a mode age of 39 and an average age of 40.

I will probably break it down by code 3 response as well, but not right now.