Lights, Sirens and Liability!

[RWC130 594]

Journal of Emergency Medical Service (JEMS)

February 1996

Doug Wolfberg

Lights, Sirens and Liability

I'm going to begin this column by stating a bias up front: I believe that lights and sirens are overused by EMS providers. I also believe that light-and-siren use probably causes more deaths and injuries than it saves or prevents. Moreover, light-and-siren use leads to careless driving by overexcited drivers and is one of the most insidious contributors to EMS liability. In this month's column, I am going to construct an argument for the serious curtailment, if not complete abandonment, of light-and-siren use by EMS vehicle operators. This argument will be based on scientific literature, case law and personal observations. I'll start with the personal observations.

I'm the first to admit that the prospect of being able to play with lights and sirens was a big part of the appeal of getting into EMS, but that was when I was a teenager. I came to outgrow the excitement generated by lights and sirens. As time progressed, I realized that working in EMS was more about providing quality patient care, having compassion for the sick and injured, and obtaining as much training and education as I could to become the caregiver I was capable of becoming.

Continued...

http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/lightssirenliability1.htm

This is a really good article from 1996 (oldie but goodie)

WE CAN ALL LEARN SOMETHING, BE SAFE!

[223Truck 0]

The thing that scares me today is that teenagers are now behind the wheel of emergency vehicles. We all have problems with membership and everyone hears the pages for drivers over the scanners, but in all honesty, is it really logical to allow teens to drive lights and sirens to a call.

I have seen 10+ Ton rigs wheeled by kids that shouldn't be driving a car! I have also seen apparatus traveling very fast to RESIDENTIAL ALARMS and MVA'S!!

Being an experienced EVOC driver and having a CDL for over 7 years, I know it takes a lot to stop these huge vehicles. I just can't see how a department would take that risk of allowing teens who have just gotten their license or have only been driving for a few years to be responsible enough to drive lights and sirens.

Let's be honest there's a little kid in all of us when we get to hearing those sirens and buzzing through traffic, I just think it takes a little more maturity to be in charge of the rig, the members on board and the general public.

[Alpinerunner 61]

The thing that scares me today is that teenagers are now behind the wheel of emergency vehicles. We all have problems with membership and everyone hears the pages for drivers over the scanners, but in all honesty, is it really logical to allow teens to drive lights and sirens to a call.

I have seen 10+ Ton rigs wheeled by kids that shouldn't be driving a car! I have also seen apparatus traveling very fast to RESIDENTIAL ALARMS and MVA'S!!

Being an experienced EVOC driver and having a CDL for over 7 years, I know it takes a lot to stop these huge vehicles. I just can't see how a department would take that risk of allowing teens who have just gotten their license or have only been driving for a few years to be responsible enough to drive lights and sirens.

Let's be honest there's a little kid in all of us when we get to hearing those sirens and buzzing through traffic, I just think it takes a little more maturity to be in charge of the rig, the members on board and the general public.

Good point. With membership declining, the drivers are getting yougner and younger. Our department has a 21 year old age minimum to drive code in any vehicle (service units included). And of course Q endorsement for the rigs. One could argue that even that is too low. I believe most abmulance agencies have a 18 year old minimum.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers. With that said, I do feel that these must be filtered. Perhaps even more filtered than some agencies/department do. I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline. I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Our country trusts 18 year old to go into Iraq with a bunch of explosives and powerful guns and kill people to protect our freedom. We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc. These same people should be able to drive fire trucks and ambulances.

On a side note, they should be able to drink to!!!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I believe that you should not a driving anything larger than a chiefs/fly car in non-emergency before your 21st birthday. I personally have no interest in driving, I would prefer to live without the liability and instead focus on my skills as a fire fighter/EMT. Let the old timers drive, I would much rather spend my time on a call concerned about hazards, residents, assignments and size up than worrying about if some jerks car was going to notice my 20 ton fire truck with lights and sirens running to a call.

There is a time and a place for everything, but no time or place for teenagers and 20 year olds to playing ECC or LCC in a world where 25% of firefighter fatalities are from traffic accidents. If you look at the demographics, even older experiences drivers are being killed in these accidents, tell me how it is smart for someone with obvious lack of experience, sound decision making capabilities and a potentially adrenaline rush which can cause a lack of coordination and fine motor control (i,e, teenager/young adult) to be driving lights and sirens to a call.

Edited February 1, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers. With that said, I do feel that these must be filtered. Perhaps even more filtered than some agencies/department do. I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline. I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Our country trusts 18 year old to go into Iraq with a bunch of explosives and powerful guns and kill people to protect our freedom. We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc. These same people should be able to drive fire trucks and ambulances.

On a side note, they should be able to drink to!!!

No offense but there is a huge difference between a 18 year old soldier and Johnny Smith from next door. I am not sure I really trust either to be driving me the ER with lights and siren however the soldier at least has literally countless hours of training, a certain level of dedication joining the armed forces, defined supervision from qualified superiors and has been qualified and certified to drive. Very few 18 year olds fit any of these categories. And joining the FD down the road and getting 20 hrs of supervised driving experience is not nearly enough qualifications to be driving anything especially something as life and death as an ambulance with a patient in the back with CPR being performed in 4 inches of snow or a fire truck running to working fire with people trapped for extreme examples.

Edited February 1, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[PFDRes47cue 653]

No offense but there is a huge difference between a 18 year old soldier and Johnny Smith from next door. I am not sure I really trust either to be driving me the ER with lights and siren however the soldier at least has literally countless hours of training, a certain level of dedication joining the armed forces, defined supervision from qualified superiors and has been qualified and certified to drive. Very few 18 year olds fit any of these categories. And joining the FD down the road and getting 20 hrs of supervised driving experience is not nearly enough qualifications to be driving anything especially something as life and death as an ambulance with a patient in the back with CPR being performed in 4 inches of snow or a fire truck running to working fire with people trapped for extreme examples.

I agree that there is a huge difference. But my point is that 18 is just number and everyone is different. Should 18 year olds be able to crawl into a working fire to search/rescue the trapped people? I think that if someone is 18 and is responsible enough and is willing to train and follow the correct training guidelines and proves to be a solid driver under emergency conditions, they should be allowed to drive. Of course, if Johnny Smith is no good behind the wheel he should not be behind the wheel.

If there is an 18 year old who is a cautious driver in all weather and proves this, why should he not be able to drive an ambulance in the snow while people are doing CPR. Age does not always equal skill. Experience comes with training, talking, and more so doing.

There needs to be a fine filter on driver certifications.

Edited February 1, 2011 by PFDRes47cue

[Atv300 69]

My only question is why would an ems rig be less of a problem for a young driver. Honestly the bus seems to afford more resposibilty of the driver and need more seasond jugment to handle the whole picture. By no means am I saying fire trucks can be driven by anyone just the bus adds a patient to the mix. Along with the crew and the public. 21 years of age min. And 4 years min driving experince seems good start for either side. Along with the department having a good driver training program.

[v85 212]

Most of the departments in Orange County are the same, 21 years old, clean driving record for the past 3 to 5 years, and completion of an EVOC type programming. This goes for both FD and EMS. The only exceptions that I know of are the paid companies because of staffing and crew issues. (ie. a crew of 2 with an 18 y.o. EMT and a Paramedic, and its an ALS level call)

But I think this thread kind of went off topic. Although I agree that sometimes emergency services, not just EMS use their RLS excessivley, I don't think that abandoning them, as the author mentioned is the answer. I would also love to know the demographics of the towns where the "research" is being conducted that says RLS only cuts a minute or so off of response times. Not to mention if it is true that "every second counts" than "only" an extra 1:30 isn't so inconsequential.

Now with that being said I do believe that sensible policies are needed, ie "No running code to an alpha or public service call", "No running code to after being told to come in non-emergency", "Stop and clear all intersections where you have the red light or stop sign" etc...

Edited February 1, 2011 by v85

[PEMO3 523]

Personally I do not believe an 18 year old should be behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle. While there are exceptions most 18 - 21 year old drivers still do not have the maturity level to fully comprehend the responsibility that such operations come with. If you look at most insurance companies, they recognize the delay between "adulthood" and "mature adult" by maintaining a surcharge on drivers younger that 25 years of age. EVOC should be a must regardless of your age, 18, 21, or 55. It helps drivers comprehend the proper operation of an emergency vehicle, hones their skills and does reduce accidents. One of the biggest problems with younger apparatus drivers is "siren tunnel vision". Simulator studies have shown that "siren tunnel vision" is a real phenomenon that causes drivers of all ages to unintentional accelerate and loose peripheral focus. Younger drivers are more effected than older operators, while older operators do seem to be less dramatically effected and are prone to take less risks.

[223Truck 0]

I agree that there is a huge difference. But my point is that 18 is just number and everyone is different. Should 18 year olds be able to crawl into a working fire to search/rescue the trapped people? I think that if someone is 18 and is responsible enough and is willing to train and follow the correct training guidelines and proves to be a solid driver under emergency conditions, they should be allowed to drive. Of course, if Johnny Smith is no good behind the wheel he should not be behind the wheel.

If there is an 18 year old who is a cautious driver in all weather and proves this, why should he not be able to drive an ambulance in the snow while people are doing CPR. Age does not always equal skill. Experience comes with training, talking, and more so doing.

There needs to be a fine filter on driver certifications.

I know plenty of great drivers who are under 21, that being said, would i trust them to get me to a fire scene safely? No!

i don't care if your a frigen race car driver, there is a certain maturity level that comes with responding lights and sirens.

"Young, dumb and full of cum" the same goes for this, Your Young, Your not experienced, and your full of adrenaline!

Listen i can sit and do driver training with someone for 100+ hours, but lets be honest, drivers training is conducted during normal traffic conditions, there's no lights or sirens for the public to freak out at. Its a shame to say it but the driving should be left to the old timers, in an EMERGENCY SITUATION, and im talking about no driver for multiple tones, Then a younger, well trained driver should take the wheel! The old timers, they've seen their share of fires, heart attacks etc. they're not in an adrenaline rush tunnel vision to get there, they want to get there safe!

[helicopper 1,050]

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers. With that said, I do feel that these must be filtered. Perhaps even more filtered than some agencies/department do. I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline. I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Our country trusts 18 year old to go into Iraq with a bunch of explosives and powerful guns and kill people to protect our freedom. We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc. These same people should be able to drive fire trucks and ambulances.

On a side note, they should be able to drink to!!!

It isn't surprising that you don't think 18-21 is too young - you're 18-21. However, there is a lot to be said for the experience and judgement that comes with age. It can not be taught, it has to be learned over time and most companies won't permit an 18 year old to rent a Chevrolet Malibu and insurance is extremely high for this age bracket yet we let them drive heavy trucks with air brakes, etc.

As for your analogy about the military - I will withdraw my reservations about 18-21 year olds driving ambulances and fire apparatus as soon as they start receiving 10 weeks of basic training (full-time) like the military. There's no comparing the training a soldier receives vs. the training a VAC or VFD provides a potential driver. I remember my VAC "driver training" and it was a joke, that was of course a long time ago but still...

You're right that there are individuals that are more capable and experienced than their years but they are the exception and not the rule.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

It isn't surprising that you don't think 18-21 is too young - you're 18-21. However, there is a lot to be said for the experience and judgement that comes with age. It can not be taught, it has to be learned over time and most companies won't permit an 18 year old to rent a Chevrolet Malibu and insurance is extremely high for this age bracket yet we let them drive heavy trucks with air brakes, etc.

As for your analogy about the military - I will withdraw my reservations about 18-21 year olds driving ambulances and fire apparatus as soon as they start receiving 10 weeks of basic training (full-time) like the military. There's no comparing the training a soldier receives vs. the training a VAC or VFD provides a potential driver. I remember my VAC "driver training" and it was a joke, that was of course a long time ago but still...

You're right that there are individuals that are more capable and experienced than their years but they are the exception and not the rule.

I'm sorry for communicating this poorly. I was not in any way comparing agencies to the military or comparing training. I was just talking about 18 being a number. My point was that there are some exceptions to the general assumption that young people should not be driving. Sorry if I offended people, by any means.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Chris, I think the age limit for renting a car is now 25 years old, not 21.

I could always tell how young the driver of the bus at the VAC was by the intensity and duration of the siren. The longer, the more variations in siren tones, I could count on a very young driver pulling up to the call.....I was hardly ever proven wrong using this formula...try it and you'll see what I mean.

This is by no means a shot at our VAC members who do a great job. They all do regardless of age. But given the unsupervised chance to "play" with the siren, and you can count on many (not all) of the 18-19 year old group to use it like a newfound toy....

[firedude 985]

I really want to stay out of this but I can't resist. There are EMS corps around the county that are run entirely by teens. I know a lot of colleges have on campus EMS groups that have ambulances. Guess who drives the ambulances, teens. I agree that 18 maybe a little to young to drive a fire truck but because of the decline of VF, Older and Profesional teens should be able to take EVOC. Maybe there should be a requirement of a CDL for any driver bellow the age of 25. If they pass EVOC, sure, let them drive. The same goes for PD. Lets take the NYPD as an example. You can take the test at 17 and a half years old. But by the time you are sworn in, you are atleast 21. Do you think going code 3 down broadway, with a 21 year old behind the wheel is safe?

There is no such thing as too much lights, they're for safety. And sirens should be used in a profesional manor.

I am not speaking for all 18 year olds, this is just my personal opinion.

I think this has gotten a bit off-topic.

Edited February 1, 2011 by firedude

[PEMO3 523]

I have noticed an interesting trend to this thread. Our 18-21 year old members feel that having younger members drive emergency response vehicles is safe and has no issues. Our "older" members (myself included) have laid out reasons why driving should be left to the older, more mature personnel. Each time this has been rebuffed (no pun intended) by our 18-21 year old group. I think it is safe to say lets just all agree to disagree, let the agencies decide who they want to drive and how young. Hopefully that 18 year old flying down the road with lights on a siren blaring in that hulking piece of apparatus won't be stuck in the "siren tunnel vision" and will be the exception to the rule for maturity and get to the scene in one piece without creating another call and/or taking a life.

[EMTF469 9]

Continued...

http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/lightssirenliability1.htm

This is a really good article from 1996 (oldie but goodie)

WE CAN ALL LEARN SOMETHING, BE SAFE!

[mreis95 77]

I believe that you should not a driving anything larger than a chiefs/fly car in non-emergency before your 21st birthday. I personally have no interest in driving, I would prefer to live without the liability and instead focus on my skills as a fire fighter/EMT. Let the old timers drive, I would much rather spend my time on a call concerned about hazards, residents, assignments and size up than worrying about if some jerks car was going to notice my 20 ton fire truck with lights and sirens running to a call.

There is a time and a place for everything, but no time or place for teenagers and 20 year olds to playing ECC or LCC in a world where 25% of firefighter fatalities are from traffic accidents. If you look at the demographics, even older experiences drivers are being killed in these accidents, tell me how it is smart for someone with obvious lack of experience, sound decision making capabilities and a potentially adrenaline rush which can cause a lack of coordination and fine motor control (i,e, teenager/young adult) to be driving lights and sirens to a call.

I disagree, they are both the same age and yes one is a soldier and has tons of training (but honestly how much is driving), who says that Johnny Smith doesn't have a certain level of dedication to the fire department just as the soldier does to the armed forces? Every fire department can qualify and certify a younger member just the same, you have to sit on the member and make sure he or she can do the job right, you can also send them to classes as well for this. We also send these same younger members like yourself into a burning building and say hey go rescue those trapped people and how many hours of training did you get 100?

Also driver's only spend the time enroute to and from a call worrying about the other drivers really, then once on scene the driver worries about the same things you do and maybe more (hazards, residents, assignments and size up) and you as the crew should also be keeping an eye out on the road too incase you see something the guys up front dont. The biggest issue is how much training the department mandates the driver no matter what age, if the trainer doesnt think the person is ready they don't get put on the list until they are. Make a mandated and a curriculum for driver training and those that you know wont act and operate safely dont get the ok.

I also have question for all those regarding fire calls, your the first piece of apparatus from your station responding aside from the chiefs to a residential alarm, or an inside smoke or an mva w/ injuries when do you use the siren when do you not? My fd there is a few that refuse to use the siren and upon intersections controlled by a stop light will give the air horn a tap or two, why I have no idea but lemme tell you it is very frustrating and nerve racking when your going through multiple stop lights in the middle of the day for an mva or a inside smoke and a tap of the air horn is all you hear because the officer and driver both "can't hear the radio".

[PEMO3 523]

My fd there is a few that refuse to use the siren and upon intersections controlled by a stop light will give the air horn a tap or two, why I have no idea but lemme tell you it is very frustrating and nerve racking when your going through multiple stop lights in the middle of the day for an mva or a inside smoke and a tap of the air horn is all you hear because the officer and driver both "can't hear the radio".

I have a question. Based on this rule what makes other drivers know the vehicle approaching the intersection is an emergency vehicle and not a delivery truck? The whole point of a siren is to grab the attention of other drivers so that they look for the vehicle with flashing lights and what their intention is. Sounds to me that failure to use a proper audible warning device would leave you open for some level of liability in an intersection accident, which by the way is where a majority of responding accidents occur. Every accident I have every had information on the key questions where: where the emergency lights on, was due caution used and did the driver sound the siren upon approach and as they continued through the intersection. Putting it in an SOP - no siren on a toot or two of the air horn is like putting a nail in the coffin.

[EMTF469 9]

I have been in the EMS for 42 years and have seen a lot of people come and go. I have also seen needless death and disabling injuries caused by not only speed, but the simple fact that red lights and sirens scare the devil out of drivers you are trying to clear. I have been Captain of my unit for 16 years and during that time I have had to sit many drivers down in my office and explain the facts of running full code 3. Most calls can be classified as either an Alpha or Bravo response mode. We use a Bravo response unless we are specifically instructed by EMS control to proceed as an Alpha response, however the first EMT on scene makes the call response status. I live in a rural area where it takes 15 minutes to get a rig to and ALS mutual aid may be responding from over 20 miles away. A Bravo response is at the discretion of the charge EMT as to use of lights and sirens. We use EMTs who are designated as first response unit.

In most cases I have seen traffic yield to just red lights so our drivers are instructed to use the siren only when necessary. The difference in on scene time can be measured in seconds between speeds of 55-60 mph and greater than 60 mph. In our district a cardiac arrest is usually a matter of rapid assessment and calling the TOD, because our protocol allows us to use our discretion to initiate resuscitation. If a patient has been down for 30 minutes or more the probability of a successful out come is very close to zero. Our state protocol allows us to discontinue resuscitation when it is obvious that the patient is not responding.

In summary, I agree with you in the most part, however there are times when lights and sirens are the right choice. I would not agree with suspending all responses with lights and siren. There are times when they are necessary when utilized properly. This is where discretion becomes the better part of valor. A dead or injured EMS responder is just another patient to work on.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I have noticed an interesting trend to this thread. Our 18-21 year old members feel that having younger members drive emergency response vehicles is safe and has no issues. Our "older" members (myself included) have laid out reasons why driving should be left to the older, more mature personnel. Each time this has been rebuffed (no pun intended) by our 18-21 year old group. I think it is safe to say lets just all agree to disagree, let the agencies decide who they want to drive and how young. Hopefully that 18 year old flying down the road with lights on a siren blaring in that hulking piece of apparatus won't be stuck in the "siren tunnel vision" and will be the exception to the rule for maturity and get to the scene in one piece without creating another call and/or taking a life.

I agree that the majority of 18-21 year old members do not have the experience or maturity to operate emergency vehicles. But, there are some safe ones out there (as the "older" and wiser members have agreed). Also, as another member touched on, there are less and less "older" members around. A younger wave of drivers is coming through. Is this safe? Not the safest trend by any means but it is a reality. This should really be a new thread if people want to discuss the dangers and liabilities of young drivers.

[firefighter-70 27]

I disagree, they are both the same age and yes one is a soldier and has tons of training (but honestly how much is driving), who says that Johnny Smith doesn't have a certain level of dedication to the fire department just as the soldier does to the armed forces? Every fire department can qualify and certify a younger member just the same, you have to sit on the member and make sure he or she can do the job right, you can also send them to classes as well for this. We also send these same younger members like yourself into a burning building and say hey go rescue those trapped people and how many hours of training did you get 100?

Also driver's only spend the time enroute to and from a call worrying about the other drivers really, then once on scene the driver worries about the same things you do and maybe more (hazards, residents, assignments and size up) and you as the crew should also be keeping an eye out on the road too incase you see something the guys up front dont. The biggest issue is how much training the department mandates the driver no matter what age, if the trainer doesnt think the person is ready they don't get put on the list until they are. Make a mandated and a curriculum for driver training and those that you know wont act and operate safely dont get the ok.

I also have question for all those regarding fire calls, your the first piece of apparatus from your station responding aside from the chiefs to a residential alarm, or an inside smoke or an mva w/ injuries when do you use the siren when do you not? My fd there is a few that refuse to use the siren and upon intersections controlled by a stop light will give the air horn a tap or two, why I have no idea but lemme tell you it is very frustrating and nerve racking when your going through multiple stop lights in the middle of the day for an mva or a inside smoke and a tap of the air horn is all you hear because the officer and driver both "can't hear the radio".

"(but honestly how much is driving)" This comment makes me assume you are not in the armed forces, at least not in the last 10 years. I can only speak for the Army, I know that the other services have very similar driver training programs. We certainly pick the more mature 18-21 year olds whenever possible. Soldiers that are drivers go through hundreds of hours of driver training before deployment. Those that tell you they did not some how slid under the requirement, and were most likely cheated out of the training because a leader failed this Soldier. Some don't pass and are reassigned to other duties. In addition to real driving hours, all drivers attend training with the crew members in simulators. These are not toys but state of the art mock ups of the equipment to be used down range. Soldiers lives are very important to us. We spend the coin to give them the best chance in combat to protect our freedoms.

[PEMO3 523]

I agree that the majority of 18-21 year old members do not have the experience or maturity to operate emergency vehicles. But, there are some safe ones out there (as the "older" and wiser members have agreed). Also, as another member touched on, there are less and less "older" members around. A younger wave of drivers is coming through. Is this safe? Not the safest trend by any means but it is a reality. This should really be a new thread if people want to discuss the dangers and liabilities of young drivers.

PFD, I do agree with you to some extent. If you read my earlier post (" While there are exceptions most 18 - 21 year old drivers still do not have the maturity level to fully comprehend the responsibility that such operations come with.") you will note that I state that there are the exceptions where a younger member is mature enough to be trusted with such a massive responsibility. You are right that because of trend in volunteerism agencies are being forced to rely on younger and younger members to fill the shrinking ranks. There are some older members I would not trust with a horse and buggy let alone a piece of emergency apparatus responding to a call.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I do not believe 18 or EMS and 21 for FD's is too young for drivers........I do not think the number should be focuses on as much as the ability of the driver. Numbers are stupid and just provide a guideline.

You can believe what ever you care to. Our insurance underwriter believes you are wrong and tells us so. You are correct that a number should not be the focus, So we dont let new members drive because they need experience as firefighters and/or EMTs before they drive, not because of their age. The worst EMS drivers are often the ones with the least time in the back.

Could it be that an actuarial number is the reason for this? Inexperienced drivers have the most accidents, without the added responsability of emergency response.

I know some young drivers that are very good drivers as well as some whom are not so good. There must be in depth driver training and certification requirements in agencies/departments. This process also must not be rushed through and all issues with someone driving must be addressed.

Being good and being experienced arevery different. I do not want a 18 y/o driving for the same reason I dont want a 35 y/o who got his drivers license at 33.........2 years of driving is not enough experience.

We allow these same people to drive tanks that have the capabilities of running over vehicles, people, or the ability to blow up entire buildings, villages, cities etc.

You state that they might run over someone with a tank...They are actually trained to do so. Unlike the emergency vehicle.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Can anybody back up these age claims with actual DATA? At first glance, it seems to me we have more older apparatus drivers getting into fatal MVAs then younger, but I haven't actually run the numbers.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I also have question for all those regarding fire calls, your the first piece of apparatus from your station responding aside from the chiefs to a residential alarm, or an inside smoke or an mva w/ injuries when do you use the siren when do you not? My fd there is a few that refuse to use the siren and upon intersections controlled by a stop light will give the air horn a tap or two, why I have no idea but lemme tell you it is very frustrating and nerve racking when your going through multiple stop lights in the middle of the day for an mva or a inside smoke and a tap of the air horn is all you hear because the officer and driver both "can't hear the radio".

1)The law has always stated

§ 1104. Authorized emergency vehicles. (a) The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle, when involved in an emergency operation, may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions herein stated.

( The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle may:

1. Stop, stand or park irrespective of the provisions of this title;

2. Proceed past a steady red signal, a flashing red signal or a stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;

3. Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as he does not endanger life or property;

4. Disregard regulations governing directions of movement or turning in specified directions.

© Except for an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle or bicycle, the exemptions herein granted to an authorized emergency vehicle shall apply only when audible signals are sounded from any said vehicle while in motion by bell, horn, siren, electronic device or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted lamp so that from any direction,under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet from such vehicle, at least one red light will be displayed and visible.

I have read a couple of court cases where they stated the "reasonably necessary" was at any time was following any of the "exceptions (i.e speeding, passing in no passing area, crossing double yellow lines, going thru controlled intersections).

2) if you can hear the radio, you need headsets. or your siren may be improperly located or sielded.

[helicopper 1,050]

I'm sorry for communicating this poorly. I was not in any way comparing agencies to the military or comparing training. I was just talking about 18 being a number. My point was that there are some exceptions to the general assumption that young people should not be driving. Sorry if I offended people, by any means.

Your point is understood but I still disagree. Unless/until EMS agencies and VFD's start providing the level of comprehensive training and supervision that the military does, there is absolutely no comparision to the two. Yes, 18 year olds can serve in the military - after substantial training and with near constant supervision. Can EMS or VFD's say the same?

Some of the other comparisons are the NYPD and college EMS agencies. Again, the NYPD example is similar to the military, they receive 26 weeks of training before they're allowed on the street and for the next 18 months they're on probation and supervised by an FTO, sergeant, CO, etc. so they're not blazing down Broadway with lights and siren - at least not more than once.

College EMS agencies almost all have a faculty or administrative advisor so they're not completely unsupervised.

Can an 18 year old be trusted to make the decisions required of an emergency vehicle operator. Yes, some can however they lack experience and judgement that only comes with time. Barry hit the nail on the head. He wouldn't want a new 35 year old driver either.

Chris, I think the age limit for renting a car is now 25 years old, not 21.

I could always tell how young the driver of the bus at the VAC was by the intensity and duration of the siren. The longer, the more variations in siren tones, I could count on a very young driver pulling up to the call.....I was hardly ever proven wrong using this formula...try it and you'll see what I mean.

This is by no means a shot at our VAC members who do a great job. They all do regardless of age. But given the unsupervised chance to "play" with the siren, and you can count on many (not all) of the 18-19 year old group to use it like a newfound toy....

Yes, the age to rent a car is 25 and even then you're probably still paying more than someone with more driving experience.

So true about the siren phenomenon. Sadly some don't outgrow it and you can still find 40-teen year olds doing the same thing.

Unsupervised is the key. EMS - volunteer and most career and most volunteer FD's lack the direct supervision that can help prevent some of these issues.

Don't anyone misunderstand me either. I'm all for 18 year olds joining the emergency services (I did) but I think we need more supervision and training before we let anyone - especially a teenager or 20-something year old - operate emergency vehicles.

[v85 212]

The data would probably be skewed since most places require a minimum age of 21+ to drive. I tend to agree though that years experience is a great factor and one that IS borne by facts. The NYPD was (is ?) having a problem because many of their officers got there drivers licenses 6 months before the academy, and they were still learning the basics of driving while being asked to drive code in city traffic.

I also think that another problem is over-reliance on the emergency equipment and assuming that other traffic will not only see/hear you, but respond in an appropriate fashion.

Now, to hopefully put this issue to rest, I am approaching 21, which is when I would be allowed to take EVOC. I honestly do not know if I will. The reason is because I know of the risks, and I do get concerned thinking about the responsibility for the lives of the patient and the other crew members.

[mreis95 77]

No sir I am not involved with the armed forces. I did think that they did some form of training but figured most was geared towards combat and so on. Thanks for the info I stand corrected thank you.

About the sirens and not using them like these older members do is against the law and when I approach them they say f the law and stuff like that but ironically will not let anyone off the truck until he goes and surveys the scene because it is a liability for him even if a chief is already there and it does not matter the type of call its always stay on the truck. I just find that very interesting. One day it'll bite them in the a** and I can do my I told you so dance!

[SteveOFD 176]

© Except for an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle or bicycle, the exemptions herein granted to an authorized emergency vehicle shall apply only when audible signals are sounded from any said vehicle while in motion by bell, horn, siren, electronic device or exhaust whistle as may be reasonably necessary, and when the vehicle is equipped with at least one lighted lamp so that from any direction,under normal atmospheric conditions from a distance of five hundred feet from such vehicle, at least one red light will be displayed and visible.

Capt.

I've read this section numerous times over the years, but it just clicked that the way this is worded, during an emergency response, I do not need to use the siren at all. As long as I have my red or white lights on I can lay on the bell and be covered by this section.