Titles for Life?

[Dinosaur 844]

I see lots of people wearing turnouts that say "EX CHIEF" or "EX CAPTAIN" or "EX LIEUTENANT" and I was wondering why? Are you a chief for life?

Does an ex-officer have to maintain any credentials or training?

Why recognize ex-officers like that?

[NJMedic 96]

EGO

Edited January 28, 2011 by NJMedic

[x129K 1,393]

EGO

Nonsense

It's about respect.

To become a Chief, IN MOST CASES, one must pay their dues, earn the respect of their peers, and work their way up the ladder. Years....training...tests...other's confidence...ALOT has to happen to get the white hat.

I don't care - vollie or career...once a Chief, always a Chief. You can add bugles to your collar, but you can never take them away.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I see lots of people wearing turnouts that say "EX CHIEF" or "EX CAPTAIN" or "EX LIEUTENANT" and I was wondering why? Are you a chief for life?

If it says "EX Wife" on the check, do you have to pay them for life?

Does an ex-officer have to maintain any credentials or training?

The 1st question is do they need any credentials to become chief in the 1st place? NYS has almost no requirements.

To become a Chief, IN MOST CASES, one must pay their dues, earn the respect of their peers, and work their way up the ladder. Years....training...tests...other's confidence...ALOT has to happen to get the white hat.

"In MOST CASES".......Not in NYS. You need to get voted in period.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Nonsense.

It's about respect.

To become a Chief, IN MOST CASES, one must pay their dues, earn the respect of their peers, and work their way up the ladder. Years....training...tests...other's confidence...ALOT has to happen to get the white hat.

I don't care - vollie or career...once a Chief, always a Chief. You can add bugles to your collar, but you can never take them away.

One night on a mutual aid run to danbury a few months after my term of chief ended - I introduced my self as the tower chauffer... the crew with me quickly corrected me and said your the chief. That was 10 years ago and people still call me or introduce me as Chief Valenti.

Its respect for the position and the life you sacrifice to do the job.

[nicoca427 3]

an ex-officer is one that non-officer firefighters can look to for guidance because of their experience and service. i dont see any reason why you would ask this stupid question.

[firefighter-70 27]

an ex-officer is one that non-officer firefighters can look to for guidance because of their experience and service. i dont see any reason why you would ask this stupid question.

OK, got it on the guidance because of their experience and service part. Why do you have to put EX - anything on your hat or helmet? If you know he is an Ex-Chief just seek his guidance if needed.

[IzzyEng4 427]

I'm a past captain from my vollie house. I have a marker plate from the company labeled "past captain" as it was an honor and a privilege to lead my company, which the company gives to its former captains. I have a small gold badge on my dress uniform that says "past captain" on it as a reward, placed next to my regulation silver member's badge.

However there is no need for me to have a "billboard" on my turnout coat nor the words "past captain" on my helmet shield. The guys and gals from my company and throughout the department know that I was a captain for a few years, they know I am the senior man in the company. that's all I need for respect.

Quite honestly, NJMedic is right in my opinion, it is EGO for most people. You don't need to flaunt it, heck half the people that have that posted on their gear don't deserve it.

"To get respect is by giving respect" - Unknown.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

May I say, what we have here is a "culture clash" of sorts. Most of us know the following, but for the edification of the member who asked the question;

There is no such thing as a career chief's turnout coat that says "Ex Chief." The only way a career chief would still be wearing a turnout coat and not be a chief anymore, would be through a demotion (voluntary or involuntary) and the new coat he would be wearing would display his current rank, or through a move from being a career Chief to a career Commissioner.

In volunteer fire departments, the selection of chiefs is a different process than in the career civil service system (which is primarily based on testing). The election of a chief does carry a significance to the members of those departments. Words like "honor" carry a lot of weight in both systems. But, a member would probably say he was honored to have been selected to serve as chief, and therefore might chose to wear a turnout coat that displays "Ex Chief", as a way of showing his gratitude to the department for that honor as they see it. Additionally, the other members of the department will probably recognize that "Ex Chief" simply by leaving the "Ex" out of the title. It's a way for other members to show their respect; especially if they believe that "Ex Chief" was a good chief while in title.

In this particular instance, there is no way to lump the two different systems together, or for that matter to even try and compare them. They are distinctly different, so maybe we should just note those differences.....maybe not judge them....and just say.....

"It Is What It Is."

[JM15 386]

Another important point is that in my volunteer fire dept. Ex-chiefs play a role in the incident command structure.

[FFEMT150 214]

May I say, what we have here is a "culture clash" of sorts. Most of us know the following, but for the edification of the member who asked the question;

There is no such thing as a career chief's turnout coat that says "Ex Chief." The only way a career chief would still be wearing a turnout coat and not be a chief anymore, would be through a demotion (voluntary or involuntary) and the new coat he would be wearing would display his current rank, or through a move from being a career Chief to a career Commissioner.

In volunteer fire departments, the selection of chiefs is a different process than in the career civil service system (which is primarily based on testing). The election of a chief does carry a significance to the members of those departments. Words like "honor" carry a lot of weight in both systems. But, a member would probably say he was honored to have been selected to serve as chief, and therefore might chose to wear a turnout coat that displays "Ex Chief", as a way of showing his gratitude to the department for that honor as they see it. Additionally, the other members of the department will probably recognize that "Ex Chief" simply by leaving the "Ex" out of the title. It's a way for other members to show their respect; especially if they believe that "Ex Chief" was a good chief while in title.

In this particular instance, there is no way to lump the two different systems together, or for that matter to even try and compare them. They are distinctly different, so maybe we should just note those differences.....maybe not judge them....and just say.....

"It Is What It Is."

Well put cap!

[firebuff860 54]

"In MOST CASES".......Not in NYS. You need to get voted in period.

Captain,

I am not going to argue about the lack of standards in NYS for becoming a ff, an officer or Chief. But their are some Dept's that have worked hard, and have pretty high standards to meet in order to become a ff, an officer and chief. So please do not say you need to get voted in period. It is unfair to those Dept's that have set requirements for all classes of ff's, and meet them on a yearly basis.

Edited January 29, 2011 by helicopper
quote tags repaired

[helicopper 1,050]

Another important point is that in my volunteer fire dept. Ex-chiefs play a role in the incident command structure.

Care to elaborate on this?

[v85 212]

In my town's volunteer fire department if, for some reason, none of the 3 regular chiefs or the duty chief (who is an ex-chief that is permanently kept as Car 4) are available, the ex-chief on scene becomes IC until a regular chief or the duty chief(also technically an ex-chief) arrives.

I would imagine it is the same in other departments as referenced above

Edited January 29, 2011 by v85

[JM15 386]

As the poster above eluded to in the absence of a chief or line officer an on scene ex-chief would be the next highest ranking and assume command.

[helicopper 1,050]

As the poster above eluded to in the absence of a chief or line officer an on scene ex-chief would be the next highest ranking and assume command.

Thanks!

[Doc 11]

Thanks!

Also, at more complex incidents the ex-chiefs can bring significant training and experience as members of the command staff.

[bigrig77 95]

But why does the gear say "Ex" anything? I can see on the retirement of a officer he or she gets a badge that says "Past chief" or something like that that goes on their Dress uniform or in their wallet. But do these retired member still need gear? I would assume if you retire, then that's it. You don't respond anymore unless that is built into your departments SOP's that they can come help out on bigger incident. If I am understanding correctly the "Ex-officer" gear is being worn my active members? As stated the coat would mean " I was a officer but I got demoted or fired" Kind like people with the t-shirt that says "FAST Team"

[JM15 386]

In the volunteer side that isn't exactly true. There are many members who have moved up through the ranks and "did their time" and returned to being "regular" members who are still active and respond to calls regularly.

[bigrig77 95]

In the volunteer side that isn't exactly true. There are many members who have moved up through the ranks and "did their time" and returned to being "regular" members who are still active and respond to calls regularly.

Yes I agree with that but are you still not just a firefighter at that point? When guys did their time and stepped down they took off the white shield and put the normal black one on. Again dress uniform is a different thing. I will have to agree with it just being a huge Ego thing

[16fire5 693]

In the volunteer side that isn't exactly true. There are many members who have moved up through the ranks and "did their time" and returned to being "regular" members who are still active and respond to calls regularly.

I think this is a flaw in the system. In a lot of cases the members most qualified and with the most experince are not in the leadership positions and 20 something year olds are. Or the chief is from company B because it's their turn in the rotation. Honestly it's 2011 do we really think everyone should get a turn to be chief?

[JM15 386]

.They are regular firefighters with a wealth of knowledge and experience. Like posted before they can serve as IC's when other officers aren't available, can fill many essential ICS roles at large incidents (safety officer, PIO, etc.) that combined with the respect aspect is very important in their "identity" in the fire service and on the fireground, leading to the need to easily identify them on scene. Plus after all of the years that they put in a little recognition should be warranted.

Edited January 29, 2011 by JM15

[Bnechis 3,961]

To become a Chief, IN MOST CASES, one must pay their dues, earn the respect of their peers, and work their way up the ladder. Years....training...tests...other's confidence...ALOT has to happen to get the white hat.

Captain, I am not going to argue about the lack of standards in NYS for becoming a ff, an officer or Chief. But their are some Dept's that have worked hard, and have pretty high standards to meet in order to become a ff, an officer and chief. So please do not say you need to get voted in period. It is unfair to those Dept's that have set requirements for all classes of ff's, and meet them on a yearly basis.

I'm sorry, you are correct, I have seen a few, my point was its clearly is not most (as posted above). And I posted that because I have seen very few, particularly in NYS that require much beyond a pulse.

[FFPCogs 863]

There is no doubt that someone that rises to the rank of Chief (even if by election only) deserves at least a modicum of respect and like some here I think that can be clearly shown on a Class A uniform. After a voluteer Chief's term is up though they generally go back to being a FF, albeit usually a senoir one, but a FF none the less and should be identified as such on the FG. So yeah in large part I tend to agree with those who see this sort of recognition as being ego driven.

Cogs

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Another important point is that in my volunteer fire dept. Ex-chiefs play a role in the incident command structure.

In our dept, several ex-chief's or past chiefs play an important role both in front and behind the scenes. Yes, we are called upon to be the IC's in the absence of senior officers. We are an extra set of eyes and ears on the FG and give valuable insight to the IC. We act as safety officers [thats me]. We think about things that junior officers dont and we can make suggestions to them .

We become advisors to the current chiefs on town politics, how to budget, sit on committees that may have a big impact on the dept, help with training and mentor newer officers.

And when it hits the fan, your the one the young LT or new Capt looks for for help at a job or the typical bells and smells. It's good when they can easily find you. If you are all geared up, can you actually see a persons face and know who it is?

The white hat comes off, but you still end up doing some of the job..

BTW I prefer past chief, ex sounds like you got fired.

[Remember585 815]

I personally would prefer not to see any rank or former rank sewn on coats. If that guy wearing the coat is an Ex-Chief and either moves, gets fatter, gets skinnier or otherwise resigns, than I have a coat that says "Ex-Chief" on it that I can't exactly hand out to just any member. This was the same reasoning that our department stopped putting company names/ numbers on our coats several years ago - if a new FF comes in to Engine 118 and the only coat that fit him was from R18 - it made no sense. The coats are too expensive to alter, so for me, I think they shouldn't show ranks unless it's a snap-on or velcro patch. At least then you can swap it when the time comes with the successor. Along the same lines, I'm over the whole white coat thing too. When I get done as Chief I will have a coat that's still good for another 4 years that I can't wear - wasted money unless my successor is as portly as I am.

Helmet fronts with the rank for CURRENT officers is fine by me. An Ex-Lieutenant or Ex-Captain is still a senior guy in that house, and he doesn't need a special helmet front to show it - IMHO. Our Line Officers have white helmet fronts, Deputy Chiefs have gold ones and Chiefs have the white hats. Simple, and we all know who is who. If an Officer isn't on the rig, then it is the senior member in that company that should be riding shotgun, and that person will identify themselves as the "Officer" of their rig on the radio at a scene.

Our firefighters now have helmet fronts with their company # on the insert and their department ID# on the line below. If FF so-and-so transfers to another company, he just pops out the two brass pins and puts in his new company's insert. Done.

Like a few of you said, our dress uniforms should be the place to recognize past officers.

[IzzyEng4 427]

In my town's volunteer fire department if, for some reason, none of the 3 regular chiefs or the duty chief (who is an ex-chief that is permanently kept as Car 4) are available, the ex-chief on scene becomes IC until a regular chief or the duty chief(also technically an ex-chief) arrives.

I would imagine it is the same in other departments as referenced above

Is that because of experience or the lack of confidence of a company captain or lieutenant running the scene? Sorry, a volunteer chief that steps down is back on the line and the company captain and lieutenant out ranks the "ex". To me that is a plan lack of respect for a line officer having someone without rank running the scene over them, unless they are asked to by the company line officer.

[v85 212]

I don't think it has to do with respect as much as with fireground experience. My town's department does have or at least had, a few captains/lts in their mid twenties, with only around 5 to 8 years of interior experience, as opposed to a past chief with 20 + years of experience

And not all ex-chiefs are on the line, I believe we do have a few company lieutenants who are past chiefs as well.

Edited January 29, 2011 by v85

[ec255 22]

Bit of a silly question, but I know in our dept, it's so that person can be easily identified as an expirienced individual on the fireground- although we run a very tight budget, the couple of extra "E"'s and "X"'s on the turnout coats haven't driven us into fiscal crisis thus far.

[dadbo46 50]

BTW I prefer past chief, ex sounds like you got fired.

I agree. "Ex" sounds like you died.