Another fire/police battle...

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Enough already.

How many more times are we going to read the same story.

Today’s battle brings us to Long Island, New York.

The North Merrick Fire Department (NMFD) protects a district on the south shore of heavily populated Nassau County, just east of New York City. Two major parkways go through their first due area, the Southern State Parkway and the Meadowbrook State Parkway. Both are 6 lane divided highways with extremely heavy commuter traffic. Police services on the parkways are provided by New York State Troopers, while the rest of their district is served by the Nassau County Police Department.

It snowed today on Long island and a vehicle spun out of control on the slick Meadowbrook Parkway. The vehicle ended up facing northbound in the center lane of the southbound highway. Not a great place or working conditions to provide patient care.

A state trooper arrived, and used his SUV to block the center lane, and shortly thereafter NMFD Chief Jimmy Allen arrived and put his chief’s vehicle in position to block the right lane to provide a buffer for emergency responders. Ambulance and fire apparatus arrived and went to work. Traffic could still flow in the left lane.

Another day serving the public, right?

Nah.

The trooper told the chief that he wanted his chief’s vehicle moved and the right lane reopened to traffic, leaving just the center lane closed for the wreck and emergency vehicles. Morning commuter traffic would be passing the rescuers on both the left and the right side.

Chief Allen said this was unacceptable and told the trooper he was not moving his vehicle. The trooper fired back with the message that if he didn’t move his unit, he was going to arrest him. The chief called for a state police supervisor, but nobody else responded. In the end, the trooper gave the fire chief a summons for “failure to follow a lawful order.”

Here is a quote from Chief Allen, taken from a discussion of the incident on the website www.nassaurant.com , “I told the trooper I was not moving my truck for the safety of my department members the aided and also HIMSELF. He didn’t like that and told me if I don’t move it he was going to arrest me in which my answer was I guess that’s what you are going to do because I am not moving my truck.”

So where do we go from here?

First of all, to all of our firefighter readers, before you get too upset, please check the regulations in YOUR state. More than likely, by statute (law), the PD is actually the lead agency and IN CHARGE at vehicle accidents.

But even if the cops are in charge, do they have to be IN CHARGE to the point of endangering everyone on the scene? You can win the battle but really lose the war.

Firefighters operate on highways every day. Civilians driving automobiles and trucks take little heed for our operation on the road.

Years ago I visited the FDNY shops in Queens. A fairly new pumper had been set aside and was covered with dust. I asked our tour guide the reason this unit had been sitting so long and obviously hadn’t been touched. He guided me around the back of the rig, and the back step was indented in a semi-circle shape, just about three feet in diameter. In hushed tones, he told me a firefighter had been struck and killed by a speeding car while operating at a vehicle incident on one of NY’s many highways. He died, crushed against the back step of that rig. The damaged back step said it all. A man died right there, in a useless accident. The rig was being held as evidence for the upcoming trial.

Two Connecticut fire departments had very serious recent close calls on busy Interstate 95. Last month we reported on the Stratford incident where two pumpers that were struck by two tractor trailers traveling too fast for road conditions. Both rigs sustained serious damage, but no emergency personnel were injured because the pumpers BLOCKED the road.

Twenty-five miles south of Stratford is Stamford. Stamford Fire Rescue Department’s Engine 1 was also destroyed on I-95 two months earlier. The rig had been positioned to protect three firefighters extinguishing a fully involved vehicle fire. As the crew was picking up a tractor-trailer slammed into Engine 1. The crew lived to tell about it.

Ok, we get it. We park our rigs to protect our people. Our people include the cops.

Why don’t all the cops get it? Police officers suffer as many serious and fatal injuries from vehicle incidents as we do.

In New York, a new law that went into effect on January 1st makes it mandatory for drivers to pull over for emergency vehicles on all highways. The law was enacted after two police officers died in highway accidents. Do you think the word on the law, as well as its intent had made it down to the rank and file troopers?

Now is a great time to meet with your local law enforcement and pre-plan this issue. Sit down with them, find out what they expect out of your department, and what you expect out of them. Issue a joint memorandum of understanding that is distributed to all levels of organizations involved in highway incidents … police, fire and EMS. Have your folks review it and have a copy of it in your responding units. Police officers move into and out of coverage areas, and it’s possible an officer might not know about your plans.

It’s too late to accomplish much on the scene when things go bad. You’ve all heard the saying, “Never argue with someone with a gun and a badge”.

Remember the video above from an incident in the Midwest? An argument between a fire captain and a police officer ended up with the captain in handcuffs and a lawsuit over the incident.

Sad day on Long Island. Sad day for the fire service. Sad day for law enforcement. Nobody is going to win this battle. The State Police have notified the fire chief that they are going to pursue the charges and prosecute the case.

Your thoughts?

Statter 911 Article

This stuff really drives me nuts. Especially after last week, a local dept responded to the NYS Thruway for an MVA and were told by the Troopers they had to clear the scene as soon as possible and that they could only close 1 lane (which wasn't really a safe enough buffer for where they were). A Troop car was struck by another motorist while crews were operating and suddenly the NYSP decided it was ok to close all of the lanes divert traffic. The FD decided to return the favor by leaving the scene as they were originally told to do...

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Connecticut law regarding these types of incidents. I know a certain former NHFD Chief that used to carry it around in his hat for the Troopers to read.

Sec. 7-313e. Authority of fire officer during emergency. Notwithstanding any provision in the general statutes or a municipal ordinance to the contrary, the fire chief of the municipality, or any member serving in the capacity of fire officer-in-charge, shall, when any fire department or company is responding to or operating at a fire, service call, or other emergency, within such municipality, have the authority to: (a) Control and direct emergency activities at such scene; ( B ) order any person to leave any building or place in the vicinity of such fire for the purpose of protecting such person from injury; ( c ) blockade any public highway, street, or private right-of-way temporarily while at such scene; (d) at any time of the day or night, enter any building, including a private dwelling, or upon any premises where a fire is in progress or near the scene of any fire, or where there is reasonable cause to believe a fire is in progress, for the purpose of extinguishing the fire or preventing its spread; (e) inspect for the purposes of preventing fires and preplanning the control of fire all buildings, structures or other places in their fire district, except the interior of private dwellings, where any combustible material, including but not limited to waste paper, rags, shavings, waste, leather, rubber, crates, boxes, barrels or rubbish, that is or may become dangerous as a fire menace to such buildings, structures or other places has been allowed to accumulate or where such chief or his designated representative has reason to believe that such material has accumulated or is liable to be accumulated; (f) order disengagement or discouplement of any convoy, caravan or train of vehicles, craft or railway cars for the purpose of extinguishing a fire or preventing its spread; and (g) take command of any industrial fire brigade or fire chief when such fire company or department has been called to such industry.

(P.A. 75-599; P.A. 77-232.)

History: P.A. 77-232 clarified authority of fire officers, extending authority to time when responding to call and including emergencies and service calls as well as fire, deleting authority to trespass without liability and adding authority to make inspections and to order disbanding of convoys, caravans etc.

See Secs. 7-313b, 53a-167a, 53a-167b.

Cited. 24 CA 598, 599, 607, 608.

Who is legally in charge in NYS?

[JBE 328]

I wouldn't necessarily say this is a battle, inasmuch as it's a disagreement that ended up with a summons being written. Hopefully this gets resolved and everyone walks away happy.

In my experience on this side of the radio, I can't count how many times I've gotten calls from PD Traffic Control asking, or actually demanding me to tell my units to move so a lane can be opened. There are a number of times I have told them no, because I know why the lanes are blocked.

Civilians also are a little clueless on this one, as well. I had a rollover wreck on the Deegan in front of the chateau one night, 3 or 4 cars involved. NYPD ESU Truck 4 was facing south in the northbound lane on a diagonal angle in front of the rolled over car. 81 Engine and 46 Truck pull up, the Engine gets in the center lane, while 46 Truck pulls in at an angle to reduce the traffic flow to one lane. One of my neighbors says, "Oh there go the firemen blocking traffic again" (Edited for content by me) I looked at the guy and said, "Do you know why they're doing that??" He looked at me kinda funny, and said no. I explained to him that it was done so that the Firefighters, Cops, and EMT's that operating don't get hit by someone trying to come through. It's unfortunate that a situation like this had to come down to a summons being written, but, safety is paramount above keeping the traffic moving.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Connecticut law regarding these types of incidents. I know a certain former NHFD Chief that used to carry it around in his hat for the Troopers to read.

Who is legally in charge in NYS?

On any highway it's the PD's scene.

[unklecletus 0]

I can under stand both sides of the story. I was a H.E.L.P. Truck driver on 684. When ever we had a land closed for any reason we were asked alot when the road would be open. I know the troopers get alot of pressure from higher ups to keep the roads open.

[PEMO3 523]

You would think after actually having to pass laws such as the NYS Move Over Law some out there would put two and two together and realize that this is about safety in an environment full of distracted drivers. Maybe I am missing the troopers logic but if the car is in the center lane and it usually requires at a minimum one additional lane to properly extricate a patient, how was this to be done in a single lane with traffic on both sides. While it is understood that PD has scene control of the highway and traffic, what ever happened to we are all working on that road and safety needs to come first. Sounds more to me like a power play or something deeper.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Once again its individual Police Officers that are doing this, let us not lump everyone together! I say block all you need, going off face value of the article I'd say at least one lane other than the center should have been blocked. And, if need be, block it all while the patient is taken out of the car and put into the ambulance, how long could it take? 5 minutes? How about 5 hrs for an AI when someone gets hit!

[fireguy30 13]

On any highway it's the PD's scene.

I have to disagree where im from 95% of the time the cop cars are in the way we had a problum once where there was 4 cop cars blocking the rd of a mva with a person traped and noone could find the cops they were down the road stopping cars from comeing down with out there cars and so we moved the car with are rescue and yes we tryed the doors they were lock so we moved it i really think the cops should put there cars out of the way and let us do are job ever sinces this happend now there cars are off the side of the road and let us do whatever myunder standing is like it was said the fire chief is the ic of everytrhing the cops just do the report and stay out the way we had a cop car one other time block a drive way of a house fire and i ask the cop yo you got water and hose on that car if not get it out of here he dident like that to much but he moved found out was his 2ed day on the job some cops not all like to flex that they have a badge and dont know where to draw the line

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I have to disagree where im from 95% of the time the cop cars are in the way we had a problum once where there was 4 cop cars blocking the rd of a mva with a person traped and noone could find the cops they were down the road stopping cars from comeing down with out there cars and so we moved the car with are rescue and yes we tryed the doors they were lock so we moved it i really think the cops should put there cars out of the way and let us do are job ever sinces this happend now there cars are off the side of the road and let us do whatever myunder standing is like it was said the fire chief is the ic of everytrhing the cops just do the report and stay out the way we had a cop car one other time block a drive way of a house fire and i ask the cop yo you got water and hose on that car if not get it out of here he dident like that to much but he moved found out was his 2ed day on the job some cops not all like to flex that they have a badge and dont know where to draw the line

Come again?

[abaduck 123]

One thing for sure. IMHO. In any such serious argument between a cop and a firefighter, *no-one* is going to come out a 'winner'. Play nice.

[firebuff08 29]

The Chief should have taken it one step further. Moving his vehicle as the trooper requested would have created an unsafe situation for the fire personnel. When there is a medical or fire call and there is an armed gunman, do firefighters and EMS personnel enter the scene before the police secure it. NO! Same should apply on the highway. Passing traffic is just as dangerous as someone with a gun. The moment the trooper said he was going to arrest the Chief, all fire and rescue personnel should have been ordered off the highway and returned to quarters by the Chief since the scene would no longer be secure. Any patients they were working on should have been told they were being ordered off the highway and the State Police would be taking over patient care. I hope the Chief is serious about not responding to the highway in the future until the troopers all get the message about safety. If the big hats want to dictate how the scene will be run, let them run it by themselves. Remember, it is the taxpayers in the North Merrick Fire District that pay for the fire dept, not the state police and not the out of town motorists passing through on the parkway, so I am sure the Chief will not be pissing off very many local residents.

[JohnnyOV 2]

I have to disagree where im from 95% of the time the cop cars are in the way we had a problum once where there was 4 cop cars blocking the rd of a mva with a person traped and noone could find the cops they were down the road stopping cars from comeing down with out there cars and so we moved the car with are rescue and yes we tryed the doors they were lock so we moved it i really think the cops should put there cars out of the way and let us do are job ever sinces this happend now there cars are off the side of the road and let us do whatever myunder standing is like it was said the fire chief is the ic of everytrhing the cops just do the report and stay out the way we had a cop car one other time block a drive way of a house fire and i ask the cop yo you got water and hose on that car if not get it out of here he dident like that to much but he moved found out was his 2ed day on the job some cops not all like to flex that they have a badge and dont know where to draw the line

I tried to decipher what you wrote... if I'm far off, let me know

I have to disagree. Where I'm from 95% of the time the cop cars are in the way. We had a problem once where there where 4 cop cars blocking the rd of a mva with a person trapped, and no one could find the cops since they were down the road stopping cars from proceeding towards the scene, and so we moved the cars with our rescue. And yes we tried the cop's doors but they were locked so we moved them with our truck.

I really think the cops should put there cars out of the way and let us do our job. Ever since this happened, their cars are off the side of the road and let us do whatever we need to do. My understanding is that the fire chief is the ic of everything, regardless of the incident. The cops are there just do the report and stay out the way.

We had a cop car one other time block a drive way of a house fire and i ask the cop "Yo, do you have water and hose on that car? If not get it out of here!" he didn't like that to much but he moved. I later found out was his 2nd day on the job. Some cops, not all, like to flex that they have a badge and don't know where to draw the line.

Either way, the grammar police just issued you a major fine

Edited January 27, 2011 by JohnnyOV

[ajsbear 11]

While the police get pressure from their bosses to get the roads open as fast as possible safety has to come first. One only has to look at pictures of the 3 rigs in Connecticut that were hit over the last few months on I 95. 3 rigs, at least 1.5 million dollars worth of rigs totaled. Still cheaper than a life. If the cop is creating an unsafe condition, pull all the men out, call for a Sgt. and wait. Firefighter safety comes first. Any of the state courses all say that.

[JTF429 37]

There was a pretty good article in Firehouse a few months back. It was written by a retired State Police Captain I belive. They had similar incidents. The gist of the article was that PD really does not understand our reasons and we do not understand their's. Like all the mayhem created miles back when drivers are pulling illegal u-turns and such. They solved the problem by having a number of training sessions so both agency's have a better understanding.All it takes is one officer or chief having a bad day and everyone gets labeled.

[PEMO3 523]

The Chief should have taken it one step further. Moving his vehicle as the trooper requested would have created an unsafe situation for the fire personnel. When there is a medical or fire call and there is an armed gunman, do firefighters and EMS personnel enter the scene before the police secure it. NO! Same should apply on the highway. Passing traffic is just as dangerous as someone with a gun. The moment the trooper said he was going to arrest the Chief, all fire and rescue personnel should have been ordered off the highway and returned to quarters by the Chief since the scene would no longer be secure. Any patients they were working on should have been told they were being ordered off the highway and the State Police would be taking over patient care. I hope the Chief is serious about not responding to the highway in the future until the troopers all get the message about safety. If the big hats want to dictate how the scene will be run, let them run it by themselves. Remember, it is the taxpayers in the North Merrick Fire District that pay for the fire dept, not the state police and not the out of town motorists passing through on the parkway, so I am sure the Chief will not be pissing off very many local residents.

Firebuff, I have to disagree with you on this one. One knee jerk reaction does not justify another one. Pulling your resources does not help those helpless civilians you are sworn to serve. Secondly, unless the trooper is an EMT or Medic, depending on your level of training, you just can't pull out and say they have patient care now. Can you spell lawsuit? the defense that the trooper was a bone head or hurt your feelings is not going to be a valid defense. I would rather defend the ticket or arrest than the wrongful death/injury lawsuit from pulling out. I know which one I will prevail on and which one will drain my and my department/municipalities wallet on the award. Lastly, don't the taxpayers of North Merrick drive on that highway along with the out of town motorists? This is a simple case of "lets sit and talk with the higher ups and let cooler heads prevail".

[TCD0415 26]

I have been to plenty of scenes where the FD and PD got into a pissing match (and once threatened to arrest the Asst Chief) over keeping a lane of traffic closed. Nobody usually wins. But, keeping the Right Land and Left Lane open, while operating in the center lane on an island is just pure INSANITY. Any supervisor or boss that backed his actions really needs to spend some time out in the trenches. Thats just plain crazy............

Edited January 27, 2011 by TCD0415

[helicopper 1,050]

I have to disagree where im from 95% of the time the cop cars are in the way we had a problum once where there was 4 cop cars blocking the rd of a mva with a person traped and noone could find the cops they were down the road stopping cars from comeing down with out there cars and so we moved the car with are rescue and yes we tryed the doors they were lock so we moved it i really think the cops should put there cars out of the way and let us do are job ever sinces this happend now there cars are off the side of the road and let us do whatever myunder standing is like it was said the fire chief is the ic of everytrhing the cops just do the report and stay out the way we had a cop car one other time block a drive way of a house fire and i ask the cop yo you got water and hose on that car if not get it out of here he dident like that to much but he moved found out was his 2ed day on the job some cops not all like to flex that they have a badge and dont know where to draw the line

One key point that we all have to get into our heads - the fire chief (or other officer) is not the IC of everything. He/she is in charge of his/her department and their response but there is no statute in NYS that grants such broad, far-reaching authority to anyone (Police, FIre, EMS, dog catcher). If you really think that all the police do is write a report and stay out of your way you're grossly ill-informed.

It is time to get past the chest thumping and big egos and attitudes and start working like the team we all profess to be.

As far as your 95% of the time the cops are "in the way" statement, you really need to pan out and start looking at the big picture - the cops were doing what you're complaining about - making the scene safe by stopping traffic and safeguarding the scene.

In your other example you point out that a rookie cop parked his car in the wrong place - he learned, he probably won't do it again but your comments did little to foster the relationship between PD and FD.

I will contend that there are an equal number of FF who don't know what the law is (or flagrantly disregard it), don't know when they should quit while they're ahead and frequently overstep their bounds. Shall I lump them all into one category and make condescending remarks about the fire service?

If we start to practice what we preach and actually do ICS instead of just talking about who is in charge, things will start getting better. We also have to follow the advice of another poster here - when these conflicts arise, sit down in a room develop a plan, train everyone on the plan, and at least be a little sensitive to our peers in the other disciplines.

I also agree with another poster that these are isolated incidents with one or two individuals involved and do not reflect the law enforcement / fire service relationship as a whole. They just get lots of attention for obvious reasons.

[Dinosaur 844]

Get over yourselves. Stop arguing with each other. Start treating the victim and then get off the road. There's no reason to stay there with four trucks blocking half the road after the ambulance leaves.

The fire service isn't better than the police, just different.

Law enforcement isn't better than the fire service, just different.

EMS isn't better than either, every minute just sucks.

And a personal note for someone in this thread try spell check or a dictionary.

[Dinosaur 844]

Firebuff, I have to disagree with you on this one. One knee jerk reaction does not justify another one. Pulling your resources does not help those helpless civilians you are sworn to serve. Secondly, unless the trooper is an EMT or Medic, depending on your level of training, you just can't pull out and say they have patient care now. Can you spell lawsuit? the defense that the trooper was a bone head or hurt your feelings is not going to be a valid defense. I would rather defend the ticket or arrest than the wrongful death/injury lawsuit from pulling out. I know which one I will prevail on and which one will drain my and my department/municipalities wallet on the award. Lastly, don't the taxpayers of North Merrick drive on that highway along with the out of town motorists? This is a simple case of "lets sit and talk with the higher ups and let cooler heads prevail".

Amen brother. Remember who we work for!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Once again its individual Police Officers that are doing this, let us not lump everyone together! I say block all you need, going off face value of the article I'd say at least one lane other than the center should have been blocked. And, if need be, block it all while the patient is taken out of the car and put into the ambulance, how long could it take? 5 minutes? How about 5 hrs for an AI when someone gets hit!

Good point. Don't throw out all the apples just because of one bad one in the barrel.

[x635 4,066]

What about, if no one was injured and inside the vehicle, just pushing the car off the highway, which is the safest place, or at least to the shoulder. No reason to be on the highway for longer then we need to be. If someone is injured, the weather condition and location indicate a rapid extrication.

I know I say "Down Here" a lot, but I think it's a different world. ALL police cars are equipped with push bumpers, not for asthetics, but to push the car off the highway. Apparatus follows blocking the scene to a T, but they work as quickly as possible to clear the incident from the highway. In severe cases where their lives are in danger and PD cannot get the vehicle off the roadway and the wrecker is not there, the FD is authorized to pull the vehicle off the roadway using a strap.

And cops let the firefighters and paramedics do their job, and then they (PD) does theirs, or in conjunction with (crime scene). Everyone works together, and there is rarely any conflict. The trooper has to document why he closed the road, and can get written up for not keeping it open. This all stems it's way down from your NYS legislators who don't want their consituents complaing about traffic.

Also, keep in mind...do you like sitting in trafic? What problems does a traffic jam cause? People rushing to get to work speeding through alternate routes. Secondary collisions caused by rubbernecking. NY Traffic reporters saying the Meadowbrook is shut down.

I'm sure there is a little more to this story then is told.....they should have gotten the patient out of the car, into the ambulance, and left the scene for the trooper to deal with. FORGET cutting the battery, throwing down absorb all, stretching a line, etc. Get the patient rapidly and get out of there, and again, leave the scene for the trooper to deal with and wait for a wrecker. Document it, file a complaint, and don't go back onto the roadway until you come to terms with the trooper. Most of the time, the vehicle needs a wrecker and not us.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Get over yourselves. Stop arguing with each other. Start treating the victim and then get off the road. There's no reason to stay there with four trucks blocking half the road after the ambulance leaves.

The fire service isn't better than the police, just different.

Law enforcement isn't better than the fire service, just different.

EMS isn't better than either, every minute just sucks.

And a personal note for someone in this thread try spell check or a dictionary.

Rarely are four fire trucks on the scene of a traffic accident. But many times, after the patient/s is/are treated and transported, there's a big mess on the roadway, fluids to be absorbed, wrecked vehicles to be removed, etc. So there is a reason for fire apparatus to be on scene after the ambulance leaves.

I don't understand all of this pissing match stuff when it comes to the highways. I was IC in my district for eight years. The district is surrounded by three highways; we were out there constantly, and I never had any kind of incident with PD. Rather, WCPD Officers were more than happy to see us, to help them mitigate the emergency.

When an Officer asked me to do something, I always accommodated their requests. They were never unreasonable.

And even though I was IC for the FD, I knew the law; and the law in NY is that the PD is in charge of the highways. What is so difficult for some of us to understand this simple thing?

Cooperation, and extending a friendly handshake went a long way to ensuring the emergency was handled smoothly and professionally.

I don't know where your "every minute just sucks" comment comes from regarding EMS. I "get it" but I don't get it. Are you in EMS? If not how could you make such a derogatory statement about that profession? If you are in EMS, you should maybe have a little more pride in your profession?

As the years in service pass by, most cops, firefighters and EMS lose the ego thing. I think it goes along with a corresponding drop in the amount of adrenaline the body produces as the years go by, and emergencies become more of a routine than an exciting moment.

[gpeifer 89]

One key point that we all have to get into our heads - the fire chief (or other officer) is not the IC of everything. He/she is in charge of his/her department and their response but there is no statute in NYS that grants such broad, far-reaching authority to anyone (Police, FIre, EMS, dog catcher). If you really think that all the police do is write a report and stay out of your way you're grossly ill-informed.

It is time to get past the chest thumping and big egos and attitudes and start working like the team we all profess to be.

As far as your 95% of the time the cops are "in the way" statement, you really need to pan out and start looking at the big picture - the cops were doing what you're complaining about - making the scene safe by stopping traffic and safeguarding the scene.

In your other example you point out that a rookie cop parked his car in the wrong place - he learned, he probably won't do it again but your comments did little to foster the relationship between PD and FD.

I will contend that there are an equal number of FF who don't know what the law is (or flagrantly disregard it), don't know when they should quit while they're ahead and frequently overstep their bounds. Shall I lump them all into one category and make condescending remarks about the fire service?

If we start to practice what we preach and actually do ICS instead of just talking about who is in charge, things will start getting better. We also have to follow the advice of another poster here - when these conflicts arise, sit down in a room develop a plan, train everyone on the plan, and at least be a little sensitive to our peers in the other disciplines.

I also agree with another poster that these are isolated incidents with one or two individuals involved and do not reflect the law enforcement / fire service relationship as a whole. They just get lots of attention for obvious reasons.

If only everyone had the harmony that exists in the city of Yonkers between the public service representatives (notice I left out the words cop and fireman) providing emergency services the world would be a better place. LOL

Edited January 27, 2011 by gpeifer

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Hats of Incident Management (excerpt)

I know this is shown frequently but I thought this was especially comical and relevant given this discussion.

Edited January 27, 2011 by bvfdjc316

[NJMedic 96]

Funny how the same law enforcement agencies that worry about keeping the traffic flowing have no problem closed down a road for hours doing an AI. Recently one highway was shut down near me for 6 (yes thats Six) hours for an AI. I mean what are you doing scrapping the blacktop for DNA?

I'm not a LEO so I could care less how many hours the road is shutdown but lets all get on board with the same program and play well in the sandbox together.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

If we start to practice what we preach and actually do ICS instead of just talking about who is in charge, things will start getting better. We also have to follow the advice of another poster here - when these conflicts arise, sit down in a room develop a plan, train everyone on the plan, and at least be a little sensitive to our peers in the other disciplines.

This is ICS-100 folks. Isn't pretty much everyone supposed to have this these days?

http://www.fema.gov/txt/nims/nims_ics_position_paper.txt

Unified Command (UC)

Unified Command (UC) is an important element in multi-jurisdictional or multi-agency domestic incident management. It provides guidelines to enable agencies with different legal, geographic, and functional responsibilities to coordinate, plan, and interact effectively. As a team, the Unified Command overcomes much of the inefficiency and duplication of effort that can occur when agencies from different functional and geographic jurisdictions, or agencies at different levels of government, operate without a common system or organizational framework. The primary difference between the single command structure and the UC structure is that in a single command structure, the IC is solely responsible for establishing incident management objectives and strategies. In a UC structure, the individuals designated by their jurisdictional authorities jointly determine objectives, plans, and priorities and work together to execute them.

And even though I was IC for the FD, I knew the law; and the law in NY is that the PD is in charge of the highways. What is so difficult for some of us to understand this simple thing?

I would definitely love to see it spelled out in the Law such as it was for other states in previous posts. Of course, it seems NYS is kind of ambiguous with a lot of it's laws...

Hats of Incident Management (excerpt)

I know this is shown frequently but I thought this was especially comical and relevant given this discussion.

Always funny, and sadly true. Refer back to my ICS-100 quote from above, as it comes down to the same point(s) in the video.

[JetPhoto 626]

There is a good chance this story has hit Albany and by now the trooper is being reminded of the roles & responsibility's of the emergency services on the scene of a highway incident and the need to protect one another.

This should be resolved easily but one never knows.

If you are the unfortunate one to be involved in a situation like this in the future don't argue with the officer do your job take the ticket have one of your crew (if possible) take a couple photos of how the vehicles were setup so that later on when you sit down to discuss it with others they see why you did what you did.

We are there to help each other not argue how it should be done (especially on the scene).

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I would definitely love to see it spelled out in the Law such as it was for other states in previous posts. Of course, it seems NYS is kind of ambiguous with a lot of it's laws...

Trust me on this matter; there are going to be times in your fire dept. career you are going to be RELIEVED and GLAD that PD maintains IC on a highway.......

I speak from one experience in particular. It occurred on the Cross County Parkway and it changed the way police departments conduct AIs. There is a very good reason AIs sometimes shut down the highway for 5 hours.....it's to make sure nothing....and nobody gets left behind....

[abaduck 123]

The State Police have notified the fire chief that they are going to pursue the charges and prosecute the case.

I hadn't noticed this before. Now that I have, I'm not happy. Maybe things got a bit out of hand on the scene, maybe people were having a bad day, maybe the cop made a bad call. It happens.

But this is different. This has now gone way up the chain of command, and State Police have evidently decided to make an example of this Chief. Not good. Not going to help anyone.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Trust me on this matter; there are going to be times in your fire dept. career you are going to be RELIEVED and GLAD that PD maintains IC on a highway.......

I speak from one experience in particular. It occurred on the Cross County Parkway and it changed the way police departments conduct AIs. There is a very good reason AIs sometimes shut down the highway for 5 hours.....it's to make sure nothing....and nobody gets left behind....

I by no means meant it as a "challenge" to see who could/would be the IC, I meant it more to the fact that NYS seems to be, as I said, very ambiguous, and, it would be to everyone's benefit to come right out and say who is, as some other States have.

BUT, on the other hand, how many things do you have to have spelled out? In this case, yes, it would be nice, but every time an issue comes up, it cannot be expected to take an act of the State Legislature to definitely solve.

Everyone needs to learn to play nice in the sandbox, and these things need to be discussed and worked out AHEAD OF TIME. Have the FD officership approach the LE Agencies they deal with (or vice versa if you are a LEO), and explain the need/desire to never run into this issue in the first place, and that no one is looking to play "mine's bigger than yours", but work on a common ground.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

-Benjamin Franklin